first ebike - 14 mi commute each way

[Hamburglergt]

I've been searching for days now and stumbled on this form a few times so figured maybe its worth putting my question to some experts for advice. I'm looking to spend 3000-4000$ (would happily do less if i could) to buy a class 1 commuter bike to help me commute 14 miles each way in Seattle. I'm 6'4" and 240lbs.

It looks like about 650' elevation / 450' elevation for ride there / home. I've considered a lot of bikes (vanmoof, volt, etc). I want this ride to subsitute as a work out but at the same time I'm not a bike enthusiast, road bikes scare me a bit (not sure I want to be changing tires all the time which seems to be a reality), I care about how the bike looks (I like how vanmoof and other simplistic bikes look) and I need to be able to use the bike with my kids to toot around and potentially throw a yepp seat on a rear rack.

I think I've decided on the new budnitz e model which comes in right around 4000$ with lots of add ons.

I also saw this on the REI page last night and thought this looked pretty good but can barely find reviews besides on REI site: https://www.rei.com/product/150288/cannondale-quick-neo-electric-bike-2019

I've also thought about the luna stealth (but worried about its limited range and non-removable battery as I'd probably need to charge at work which may not be an option).

I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on these bikes or other options that somewhat fit in this mold of products. Really thankful there is a community to ask these type of things to.

 

[indianajo]

I'm not looking up the budnitz, but the cannondale you linked to had no fenders and a rear hub motor. Do you work where mud on your clothes doesn't matter? Some bikes don't have room in the forks to stuff in fenders - I've done it to Pacific & Diamondback MTB's in it was a P***. Best to buy the fenders from the OEM.
A kid on the back and a child seat plus a rear hub motor would badly unbalance the bike. I've found that bikes with too much weight on the back don't steer well and threw me over the handlebars after the front tire whipped sideways on bumps or gravel. 4 times in 5 years. The last time I broke my chin.
700 mm tires are fine for a big person, but bigger cross section tires ride better, especially at the higher speeds e-bikes motorvate at. I ride 2.1" cross section tires which are the biggest that will fit inside my frames. If you go skinnier than 1.75" I suggest you get a bike with suspension front and back -which adds $1000 to the cost.
Stretch frame cargo bikes are built for the kid seat on the back, and put your weight on the front tire. I own the one left, which has not thrown me in 21 months and ~3000 miles. I use a front hub motor, and the battery is hung off the front for more front weight. Look at yubabikes.com xtracycle.com pedego stretch radwagon surlybikes, reiss & mueller versions. Several of those have special features to be compatible with particular brands of child seats. Yuba also has a padded shelf and auxillary handlebars plus standard footrests, for when the kid gets to be a pre-teen. My yuba has front mount bosses in the frame for a front basket for the groceries or diaper bag with the kid on the back. I hung the battery on them.
No the guys in the bike club won't respect you on a cargo bike. Neither will they wave at you if they figure out you are riding an e-bike either.
Changing tubes due to flats, I do about once a year. If I keep the bumps on my tires from 3/16" (new) to 1/8" (worn out) I don't pick up road trash. I'm at 1/8" this month and had my first flat since I put the knobby kenda tires on. A piece of tire with the wire sticking out. Took me about 30 minutes to unpack the panniers (bags) flip the bike upside down and take the rear wheel off & change the tube. Another advantage of front hub motors, the rear tire usually gets the flats.
Think about custom battery replace ment in 4 years when shopping. My battery is generic, in a frame of my design, and something similar should be available for 20 years or more. Plus the one guy that tried to steal it at the grocery took the wrong screws out. Baffle them with ********. I can get my battery off in 4 minutes with the tools I carry in the same pencil box I have the other tire removal tools in. If you buy a 20 AH 48 v battery you should be able to get to work & back without charging. Remember range decreases about 50% when temperatures are 45 deg F or lower.
Happy shopping.

 

[Hamburglergt]

Thanks @indianajo - Yeah I was a bit worried the cannondale might have too thin tires @ 35mm and also require me to add on a bunch of things myself like fenders and whatnot that may have compatibility issues unforseen when buying from a place like REI. I certainly need fenders, less because i can't work in mud but more because I personally don't want to wash my jeans / whatever commuter pant I purchase.

Here is the Budnitz link for those also not inclined to search - https://budnitzbicycles.com/bicycles/view/modele-ebike

Luna stealth ebike link: https://lunacycle.com/luna-fixed-stealth-ebike/#product-reviews

Also happy to hear others thoughts on things to buy for a newbie...from some of the other threads: Bike kit, riding shorts, commuter pants (wool/lycra?)

 

[indianajo]

The bud nitz e is good looking and the gates carbon drive & allfine rear end are premium. Remember that slick looking battery will cost you in 4 years. The 250 W drive would be okay in seattle but not on hills over about 10% grade.
I ride unpowered about 60% of the time and I've lost 55 lb in 11 years of not driving cars much. The geared hub motor allows that without drag. Most mid drives do drag badly when the power is off. Don't know about the fazua. I do know the yamaha mid drives do have a one-way clutch that allow them to be pedaled. Be aware IGH like the Alfine also soak up power, slowing me down about 15% on my 26 mile commute.
I wear dickies polyester work pants over cotton undies, and they saved me from abrasions when I was hit by a car labor day. Had a light burn on my shin that healed up in 12 days. Shorts etc, lots of bikers have road burn scars. As I said I've gone over the handlebars 4 times and polyester saved the skin on my arms too. Last time was at 25 mph.
You'll need a cotton jacket for light rain days and a $1 PVC poncho for heavy rain days. I've got serious carhart jacket and farmer gloves for below 10 deg days we get here. A welder's helmet liner covers my ears under the helmet then.
I get my tools at Salvation Army resale since that is the only place to get real US made steel anymore. I keep them in a steel kids pencil box fastened with velcro (since the clasp was garbage). I keep a wrench for every fastener on the bike. Lyzene air pump rides in the bag with a couple of tubes. Sometimes a replacement tube blows up immediately, I need two since taxis would not come out as far as I ride. Cheapo schwinn tubes last the same as slime brand, in my experience. 18 mm combo wrench for the hub motor rides in the bag too, since it is so long.
Don't forget a serious lock & cable immediately. I use 12 mm diameter 7' cable that will go around telephone poles, but some urban areas that would be cut by pro thieves. Also a Master grade 11 padlock. More serious uncuttable chain from krypton or abus really weighs a lot, and won't come in even 6' length either, limiting your tether options to bike racks. Used a 12" square concrete pillar today at the library.

 

[jim6b]

Is it practical to recommend a custom made titanium bike for a guy on a $3k- $4k budget?

What's the ticket for a Budnitz ebike?

 

[TheAntidote]

Budnitz looks amazing, light and dope drivetrain. if you can afford it get the best bike you can, I really doubt you'll be disappointed. Happy riding!

 

[Hamburglergt]

Thanks a ton @indianajo - all great advice and considerations. I'll get the ABUS lock with the bike for sure but luckily i have a secure cage at work to park in that is employee badge only and also under a camera (not to mention i may have a smaller budget than a lot of people I work with tbh).

@jim6b - Do you mean the Budnitz? I think fully loaded its look like 4400 and thats including dual bags, racks, lights, better pedals ,etc...i may trim some of the options but to be clear I'm willing to go a bit over to be well equipped so the 3-4k was more the ballpark I want to stay in especially for the base cost .

 

[Dewey]

Great budget to work with for a commuter bike that can carry kids, With longtail cargo bikes I've read the key is to keep the child passenger center of gravity low, so smaller wheels at least on the rear help keep the passenger deck low, so Yuba Spicy Curry or Tern GSD or Xtracycle RFA for example. Of course you could put a Yepp seat on a rack on a bike like the Cannondale Quick but you would need to replace the sidestand for a wide double kickstand or basically not let go of your child or bike when they're on board.

 

[rich c]

Is it practical to recommend a custom made titanium bike for a guy on a $3k- $4k budget?

What's the ticket for a Budnitz ebike?

Do you buy custom tailored suits? Custom titanium bike is in the same category. I used suits for a comparison, because I made custom furniture for a living decades ago. When someone would ask my wife if my furniture was expensive, she asked if they bought custom tailored clothes. For some reason people think custom furniture shouldn't be much more expensive than imported factory pieces.

 

[jim6b]

@jim6b - Do you mean the Budnitz? I think fully loaded its look like 4400 and thats including dual bags, racks, lights, better pedals ,etc...i may trim some of the options but to be clear I'm willing to go a bit over to be well equipped so the 3-4k was more the ballpark I want to stay in especially for the base cost .

The bike referenced by the OP was the Budnitz e bike. And which is this: https://budnitzbicycles.com/bicycles/view/modele-ebike

It is a custom ti bike described as "the world ultimate electric bicycle for cyclists", the "The creme de la creme of electric bicycles."

No price is stated, I'll venture it is a least double $4,400.

 

[Hamburglergt]

@jim6b the budnitz price is 3600 base.

 

[Ebiker01]

The budnitzhas the cheap underpowered chinese fazua motor/battery.
Trek/Specialized/Giant/Bh/Yamaha/Canondale/Bulls.... no Fazua there for a Big reason.
QUALITY.
I would get a Trek Allante for 4K.

 

[Hamburglergt]

Hey ebiker01 thank you for that thought, I had not heard of the trek offering but it does look pretty nice. It seems for the models in the 4000$ range they will be significantly heavier with chain gears. Any other major plusses or minuses between the bikes? Can you explain what the power difference between the batteries/motors mean to me as a rider? Is it less assist, less range, consistency?

I also thought fazua was from Europe but maybe you mean their manufacturing?

 

[jim6b]

@jim6b the budnitz price is 3600 base.

Thanks, now I'm interested.

 

[Over50]

We had some discussion about the Budnitz in the Fazua thread that is active on the forum. This might be the first Fazua bike available in the US (or very close). Check out this thread just for the discussion on the merits of that system. If you want a lightweight e-bike that relies a lot on your power vs motor power then I think it looks like a great option.

I gave the bike some consideration because I really like the idea of having the lightweight, stealthy commuter that I could ride as a regular bike. I currently have a deposit on the new Trek Allant+ (carbon version) which will be in the low 50 pound range. I think Budnitz says their bike is around 40 or high 30s but I'm not sure if that includes rack and fenders which are optional. One of the drawbacks for me is the Budnitz doesn't have built-in lighting. Now for a system like the Fazua where you can convert it to a regular bike, you probably wouldn't build the lighting to run off of the main battery. But I think they should have the option in the configuration to get it with a dynamo and lighting. I think they have this for their regular bike lineup. I used the configurator and my bike with options came in around $4,500 (with the extra battery). I had my LBS add a dynamo (Shimano) and Supernova lighting to my Spot Champa and I think that was in the $700 range at least. Maybe most folks would be fine with rechargeable lights but I prefer the dynamo and built-in lighting in order to always having lighting available. So I would add a dynamo which would put that price well over $5,000 becoming very comparable to the Trek (I wouldn't have the skills - particularly wheel building - to put on dynamo myself but perhaps most folks would). So for now I'm leaning to the Trek because I'm looking at comparable pricing but also have a great dealer less than a mile from my house.

I think with the Budnitz you would get a quality bike and the initial feedback on the Fazua system is encouraging. If you go that route, I'll be eager to read your user reviews.

 

[Over50]

The bike referenced by the OP was the Budnitz e bike. And which is this: https://budnitzbicycles.com/bicycles/view/modele-ebike

It is a custom ti bike described as "the world ultimate electric bicycle for cyclists", the "The creme de la creme of electric bicycles."

No price is stated, I'll venture it is a least double $4,400.

The bike is not titanium. It is aluminum with a carbon fork. Prices are clearly marked at their website if you go through the configuration.

 

[Ebiker01]

Hey ebiker01 thank you for that thought, I had not heard of the trek offering but it does look pretty nice. It seems for the models in the 4000$ range they will be significantly heavier with chain gears. Any other major plusses or minuses between the bikes? Can you explain what the power difference between the batteries/motors mean to me as a rider? Is it less assist, less range, consistency?

I also thought fazua was from Europe but maybe you mean their manufacturing?

Most importantly is the dealership and warranty .
How far is the dealer from you and how long is the warranty on the battery and on the ebike frame/components ?
Yes about 10-15lb heavier but the motor does the work.
And for commuting and safety it is is a much sturdier and secure riding you get from a little heavier powerful bike ( 45-60lb) then a lighter (35-45lb)one with power.

Personally i already have a great ebike but the Trek can take an xtra battery and the carbon one will be 6.5k. I would get that one if I didn’t had an ebike.
In 3months the ebike is payed off just from the time saved of not waiting in traffic/ slow driving .
Or it could be 3 weeks depending on how much you value your hours.

The there are the savings of efficiency, parking, tolls gas , insurance, very few parts and inexpensive compared to a car fuel pump for example...

And last the savings and zero headaches of having a great dealer/warranty compared with not having it !!

With Budnitz , is like being A test subject....the bike just came out..

 

[Over50]

Fazua motor updates from Eurobike | Entering the US in 2020

We caught up with Fazua real quick at the end of the show and we had some fun taking through how the system works. It's a really cool system for lightweight applications. We're excited that they will also be launching in the US for 2020.

electricbikereview.com

The budnitzhas the cheap underpowered chinese fazua motor/battery.
Trek/Specialized/Giant/Bh/Yamaha/Canondale/Bulls.... no Fazua there for a Big reason.
QUALITY.
I would get a Trek Allante for 4K.

My goodness how misinformation gets spread ... Fazua is European and was designed with the intent to be a "light" system. Both in terms of weight and assist. This is probably why Budnitz is advertising its bike as the "e-bike for cyclists". Just watch Propel's very recent video of the system and you'll get a lot of the history. Definitely not Chinese. And not sure how you can attack their quality since they are a recent launch. The jury is still out. A good number of brands in Europe are already using the system. Just please look it up before you post this type of info (or misinformation I should say).

This is right off of their website in the "About Us" section:

Fazua was founded in 2013 in Munich, Germany by a small team of Bavarian cycling enthusiasts. Since then, the company has relentlessly pursued its goal of revolutionizing the eBike market. Led by managing directors Johannes Biechele and Fabian Reuter, the Fazua team has developed an innovative eBike drive system aimed at pushing the limits of cycling mobility while also preserving the natural feel of a non-motorized bike.

Combining the motor, battery and electronics in a single compact unit, the Fazua Drivepack sports a uniquely slim design and weighs in at a mere 3.3 kg. This allows bike manufacturers to create frames that integrate the Drivepack in the down tube with an elegant and discreet look.

Another special feature of the evation drive system is that the motor and bottom bracket are completely disengaged from one another at speeds of 25 km/h and above. Aside from the drive unit’s extremely light weight and subtle frame integration, what truly sets the evation system apart is the uniquely natural and dynamic riding feel it provides.

 

[Ebiker01]

Most importantly is the dealership and warranty .
How far is the dealer from you and how long is the warranty on the battery and on the ebike frame/components ?
Yes about 10-15lb heavier but the motor does the work.
And for commuting and safety it is is a much sturdier and secure riding you get from a little heavier powerful bike ( 45-60lb) then a lighter (35-45lb)one with power.

Personally i already have a great ebike but the Trek can take an xtra battery and the carbon one will be 6.5k. I would get that one if I didn’t had an ebike.
In 3months the ebike is payed off just from the time saved of not waiting in traffic/ slow driving .
Or it could be 3 weeks depending on how much you value your hours.

The there are the savings of efficiency, parking, tolls gas , insurance, very few parts and inexpensive compared to a car fuel pump for example...

And last the savings and zero headaches of having a great dealer/warranty compared with not having it !!

With Budnitz , is like being A test subject....the bike just came out..

The differences:

- for hills/inclines it won’t have the speed b/c it’s a smaller battery/motor. Add some racks and a 50lb weight it can even tip over on steep inclines b/c is much lighter in the front end.

-it would be good, the Budnitz for a rider less then 175lb , a city rider , short commute, but again assuming it has great warranty and RELIABILITY.

Then there’s Cannondale with some nice 2020mods which look a lot better and the company has strong reputation.

Tesoro Neo X

The Tesoro Neo X is sporty, rugged and versatile. These e-touring bikes by Cannondale are comfortable on the commute and on adventures.

www.cannondale.com

Canvas Neo

Canvas Neo Cannondale, maker of premium bicycles for race, joy riding, mountain biking and just all-around fun.

www.cannondale.com

 

[Ebiker01]

Fazua motor updates from Eurobike | Entering the US in 2020

We caught up with Fazua real quick at the end of the show and we had some fun taking through how the system works. It's a really cool system for lightweight applications. We're excited that they will also be launching in the US for 2020.

electricbikereview.com

My goodness how misinformation gets spread ... Fazua is European and was designed with the intent to be a "light" system. Both in terms of weight and assist. This is probably why Budnitz is advertising its bike as the "e-bike for cyclists". Just watch Propel's very recent video of the system and you'll get a lot of the history. Definitely not Chinese. And not sure how you can attack their quality since they are a recent launch. The jury is still out. A good number of brands in Europe are already using the system. Just please look it up before you post this type of info (or misinformation I should say).

This is right off of their website in the "About Us" section:

Fazua was founded in 2013 in Munich, Germany by a small team of Bavarian cycling enthusiasts. Since then, the company has relentlessly pursued its goal of revolutionizing the eBike market. Led by managing directors Johannes Biechele and Fabian Reuter, the Fazua team has developed an innovative eBike drive system aimed at pushing the limits of cycling mobility while also preserving the natural feel of a non-motorized bike.

Combining the motor, battery and electronics in a single compact unit, the Fazua Drivepack sports a uniquely slim design and weighs in at a mere 3.3 kg. This allows bike manufacturers to create frames that integrate the Drivepack in the down tube with an elegant and discreet look.

Another special feature of the evation drive system is that the motor and bottom bracket are completely disengaged from one another at speeds of 25 km/h and above. Aside from the drive unit’s extremely light weight and subtle frame integration, what truly sets the evation system apart is the uniquely natural and dynamic riding feel it provides.

Do you think they make the Fazua in Munich paying a german tech 65 euro/hour ??

They contracted a factory in China and have it made there.

Bosch is Made in Germany. Most of them...lately they switch also(factories overseas -far East !!) and quality is chinese.


“Founded “ means mostly where the company is registered, the design/ideas could be done there also.