Experience Thread: A noobie getting into a specialized vado 5.0 IGH

[Stefan Mikes]

@Stefan Mikes Have you tried pairing ride with gps directly with the bike over bluetooth? It just paired fine for me, but I have no way of knowing if the data is moving ( hopefully get to ride later ). It would be pretty cool if simply pairing with the bike or the enviolo motor directly let those metrics through to ride with gps.

No I have not and cannot any reason to do that! Bluetooth on your Vado is encrypted. Even if it wasn't, I could not find any reason to connect, say, Strava to e-bike...

 

[dynamic]

No I have not and cannot any reason to do that! Bluetooth on your Vado is encrypted. Even if it wasn't, I could not find any reason to connect, say, Strava to e-bike...

The point was to get bike data from bike to ride with gps without needing a bridge device. Just a BLE paired phone.

It seems odd to me that the bike itself couldn’t serve as the bridge given it can provide the data to mission control.

Right now, my only option to get that data is use mission control and push it to strava. Both of which I don’t like. This is lacking something like npe cable which would pair with my phone and the bike ant+ to feed the data to ride with gps.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It seems odd to me that the bike itself couldn’t serve as the bridge given it can provide the data to mission control.

Mission Control is specifically designed to talk with the e-bike. Since the MasterMind, the Bluetooth has been encrypted and even a dedicated application BLEVo cannot talk with MasterMind e-bikes. Strava or RWGPS have never been made to talk with e-bikes.

 

[dynamic]

Mission Control is specifically designed to talk with the e-bike. Since the MasterMind, the Bluetooth has been encrypted and even a dedicated application BLEVo cannot talk with MasterMind e-bikes. Strava or RWGPS have never been made to talk with e-bikes.

For me, this kind of overrules the "greater connectivity" of specialized. It's just a shifted walled garden. Specialized should make data available to paired BLE devices directly.

 

[MinnBobber]

The vertical traction is only important while pedalling out-of-the-saddle (standing on the pedals while rotating the cranks). Do you ever stand on your pedals to rotate your cranks? Never happened to me on an e-bike.

The platform pedal technique is: While sitting on the saddle, you slide your feet forward and backwards (or at least think you are doing that). That makes the e-bike accelerate very fast, with the cadence increasing at an improbable rate!

I often do stand on the pedals like MTBers do. Not pedalling, of course. No chance my feet would ever slide on the traction-pin pedals!

Coming from Speedplay Zeroes to my E bike:
Thought tennis shoes might work but no….
Some foot pain on 75 mile rides.
Five Ten Freerider Pro fixed that and off bike walking is ok with them.

Foot position is still experimental.
It seems like having the foot more forward on the pedal/ ball of foot slightly forward of pedal center
is better on flat pedals.
What position works best?
Although you can change foot position

? Can one wear the flat pedal shoes a little less snug vs road bike cleat shoes?

 

[dynamic]

Got the loop done again today. The saddle was surprisingly well placed. Interestingly, I didn't have any discomfort on the ride (again, not comfortable, but not bad) but when I got back on the bike later to ride with the kids, I was definitely sore. I also skipped the padded gloves and only had some hand numbness. I think I have to seriously consider moving the bars a bit closer. But, I am not sure of the best way to do that on a vado. Or, possibly, just be very conscious about my weight shifting forward.

After a successful calibration, and experimenting with enviolo app settings, the bike still won't go into the lowest gear. I couldn't bring it to the bike shop and make it home for meetings, so I have to wait until tomorrow. It's still a bit jumpy on hills and still grinds if it moves quickly. I did not try "comfort" mode on the enviolo yet. That supposedly makes the bike shift slower. Have to see how slow.

 

[mschwett]

For me, this kind of overrules the "greater connectivity" of specialized. It's just a shifted walled garden. Specialized should make data available to paired BLE devices directly.

i'm guessing part of the issue is the lack of standardized bluetooth profiles that could be used to transmit the various control information specialized uses. the mission control pairing can adjust the tuning, change power modes, transmit debug info, etc. so given that they had to invent a protocol for that, they just used it and only it. not surprising that they'd then encrypt it to break apps like blevo.

it's really good that the ANT+ support is there though, since many/most serious cyclists prefer bike computers to phones. i'm a phone only rider - no interest in or tolerance for bike computers - so i generally just use mission control which is "good enough." for a more serious ride on the creo i'll use the NPE cable. works fine and unlocks the potential of many other cycling apps.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Five Ten Freerider Pro fixed that and off bike walking is ok with them.

Foot position is still experimental.
It seems like having the foot more forward on the pedal/ ball of foot slightly forward of pedal center
is better on flat pedals.
What position works best?
Although you can change foot position

? Can one wear the flat pedal shoes a little less snug vs road bike cleat shoes?

You are actually free to position your feet exactly as you feel it is good for you. I typically place my feet on the pedals as you have described. Wide pedals help a lot!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

For me, this kind of overrules the "greater connectivity" of specialized. It's just a shifted walled garden. Specialized should make data available to paired BLE devices directly.

I have not heard of any e-bike that could directly connect to any sports tracker software. I actually cannot see a point to do that. Bear in mind ANT+ is the protocol we are talking about not Bluetooth. ANT+ allows you to connect to a plethora of sports devices that connect to Strava or RWGPS. For instance, you are getting your cadence, power, calories, heart rate etc when your Vado (and optionally a HR monitor) are connected to Garmin or Wahoo.

Only Specialized and Giant e-bikes can do it! Only! Now look at Bosch E-Bikes without ANT+ and only limited to Komoot for their most expensive display, Nyon.

 

[dynamic]

i'm guessing part of the issue is the lack of standardized bluetooth profiles that could be used to transmit the various control information specialized uses. the mission control pairing can adjust the tuning, change power modes, transmit debug info, etc. so given that they had to invent a protocol for that, they just used it and only it. not surprising that they'd then encrypt it to break apps like blevo.

it's really good that the ANT+ support is there though, since many/most serious cyclists prefer bike computers to phones. i'm a phone only rider - no interest in or tolerance for bike computers - so i generally just use mission control which is "good enough." for a more serious ride on the creo i'll use the NPE cable. works fine and unlocks the potential of many other cycling apps.

So how does npe cable work? It seems to me that mastermind should be fully capable of doing whatever npe cable can do (at least on a hardware level). I haven’t tried one yet, but it supposedly makes ant+ data available over bluetooth. And stuff works with it. Which, to me, means this has been solved *and* standardized enough for it to work with many things. Specialized just hasn’t seen a reason to implement it.

I haven’t looked into the technology that enables garmin and other products to gather this data. But given bridge devices exist, it just can’t be that much of an unknown.

 

[dynamic]

First short ride with the respiro athletic is in the books. It definitely was not positioned correctly from a saddle perspective, but was still comfortable. I think the difference with this saddle is it will enable me to adjust for my hand numbness without causing discomfort elsewhere. This is likely a good trade off for me. It still feels like two lumps like the cushier seat, but not in a weird way. And I wasn't sliding off. I will wait until I can do a full ride to determine what it needs. I am also riding without the padded gloves. And I like that a lot.

Today I was at REI and bought a pair of stretchy shorts and pants as well as a rain / layerable jacket. I really don't want weather to keep me inside. I am not sure wet feet and pants would bother me unless it was really cold. But I am starting to look at cold resistant stuff as well. They had gore tex shoe covers but nothing big enough for 10.5 men's shoes. They also just seemed a bit odd. I think I will be better off with weather resistant cycling shoes. And shimano spd sandals for the real summer. I also saw crankbrothers clip ins. I couldn't compare them, but the clips looked like they *might* be lower profile than sh-56 cleats. If so, that might work better for me from a walking perspective.

I did get down to the LBS, and they are "researching" for me bringing the bike in on monday. As stated, they have never worked on IGH/Belt bikes from specialized.

I tried using mission control and uploading to strava for my rides today so I could get rider power information. And I realized it doesn't gather heart rate from my apple watch. So, at this time, I don't see how I get power and heart rate information off the bike using the equipment I have. It absolutely requires the addition of *some* bridge device (wahoo,garmin,npe cable, viiiiva hrm). So, after all that, I am basically in no better place than the priority current from a connectivity perspective. I will be collecting power data for a bit so I will suffer mission control and strava..

 

[dynamic]

looking at the REI Co-op Junction pants that are on sale.

Fyi, I tried on the essential rain pant today. It's "ok". IT felt like it would be more annoying than it is worth. I am probably going to invest in some good multi-purpose all-weather pants instead. I am not likely to go out in truly bad weather, so I probably don't need "proof", just "resistant". But I shall see soon.

 

[mschwett]

So how does npe cable work? It seems to me that mastermind should be fully capable of doing whatever npe cable can do (at least on a hardware level). I haven’t tried one yet, but it supposedly makes ant+ data available over bluetooth. And stuff works with it. Which, to me, means this has been solved *and* standardized enough for it to work with many things. Specialized just hasn’t seen a reason to implement it.

I haven’t looked into the technology that enables garmin and other products to gather this data. But given bridge devices exist, it just can’t be that much of an unknown.

i shared a link back a while back of a more detailed writeup i did on the Cable. in short, the bike’s TCU broadcasts data in two ways: a proprietary bluetooth protocol that includes a lot of information and the ability to control the bike, and via industry standard ANT+ using public profiles for cadence, power, speed, etc. the Cable contains an ANT+ receiver (an iPhone does not have the hardware to even receive these signals) and then broadcasts the same data over bluetooth using industry standard profiles for power meters or other bike sensors.

any app on the iPhone can then receive the industry standard bluetooth data.

specialized is choosing not to use those standard bluetooth profiles, presumably because they also want to be able to control the bike and send other proprietary info from mission control, and it would be a mess to have the bike transmit subsets of the same info over multiple bluetooth profiles or connections.

i also have a 4iiii heart rate strap which has the same functionality built in, but i found it a bit harder to configure.

 

[dynamic]

and it would be a mess to have the bike transmit subsets of the same info over multiple bluetooth profiles or connections.

There is no technical reason not to do this. A great example is apple with Carplay. What this would do is provide an alternative to the systems on bikes. I would love for apple to do BikePlay. Or Android Cycling. Bike manufacturers may not want this, but it would benefit customers. The ridiculous part with specialized is everything all ready exists to do it. It’s likely no more than a firmware update away. And suddenly any app or device that supports that data, can pair with the bike and get it. Actual rider choice.

 

[dynamic]

I added to my loop for a total of 15.7 miles including some dirt back roads and double the elevation of my usual loop (around 1300 feet). I stopped at the coffee shop to do some work from my phone for nearly an hour. It was 53 degrees when I left and I chose to wear the new rain coat and stretch pants. The rain coat is a bit much once it warms up, but keeping the wind off me while on the downhills was definitely a good thing. I was on the edge of wearing finger gloves. I am glad I didn't, but a bit colder (with no chance of significant warm up) would likely need real gloves. The stretch pants don't require me to unload my pockets. I had an empty pannier on my bike because I forgot my leatherman, keys and wallet were all still in my pants pockets. That's pretty nice.

I missed the GPS notification for one of my turns and added about 2 miles to the planned trip. On the plus side, ride with GPS re-routes without issue. I only used about 27% of the battery. I could have done better, but some of the hills I just wanted to be done (I am getting over a cough for weeks. Multiple tests say it's not covid, but I have never had one hang on like this). I think all of it would be doable at 50% support if I am fresh and prepped for the ride. That means I really might get close to that 90 mile battery mark in real world usage when the purpose is to exercise. That really opens up long range targets. Ben & Jerry's factory by bike? yes? YES!!! It was a misty morning, so while the ride was amazing, a lot of the views were blocked by the mist.

I have no issues with this bike on the rougher stuff. I probably went just about to the limit of roughness I am likely to take this bike. It responds well, and I naturally went into a more semi-standing mountain biking type position at times. I would be comfortable on it on any "reasonable" trail based surface.

The respiro saddle: I had quite a bit of numbness particularly in my left hand which never needs to move off the grip. (Right hand manages RWGPS). And, while I had no comfort issues *on* the bike, the instant I got off the bike, I was sore. I also think the vibrations of unpaved, dirt, rock roads had a pretty significant effect. I think I need to move the seat forward just a touch to alleviate the hand numbness and put the primary padding of the saddle in the right place. But, this was really good overall. If I ditch the hand numbness and keep the same saddle comfort, this is fantastic.

I like a lot of stuff about this bike. I love having belt drive. I love not thinking about shifting. I love having no clatter and jumps from gear changes. I love the power micro tune letting me pick exactly what level of support I want. It has "sufficient" power (at least, not having hauled anything yet). I love the garmin radar. I think I would possibly do better from a comfort perspective on a more mountain bike setup that leans toward hybrid. The other thing is I am routinely pushing this bike to it's peak power. So if I am pushing 250 watts into 50% micro tune, then I am getting about 2x me with 250 watts added by the motor. But, if I am pushing 400 watts, I am still only getting around 270 added by the motor (I think, can't remember the exact peak power could be a bit higher ). At 100% micro tune I will get peak power up to 4x me. But the motor can't actually reach 4x of 400 watts rider power. It will add whatever the peak power of the motor is to my rider power. So, if I stay at about 200 watts rider power (or less), I take full advantage of the peak power of the motor while doing a lot less work.

That's all fine, but I am rarely under 200 watts in a scenario where I am using significant assistance, unless I threw in the towel, and just trying to survive a hill, in which case I would normally be in 130 watt range and 100% support with as casual a pedal os I can get around 75 RPM. I suspect, a mountain bike with a crazy peak power motor would feel more like the bike is scaling with me. In this respect, the current and this bike felt very similar. It's like I hit a "wall" of support and I either push myself harder, or scale back and let the bike do it. I would love to experience the elimination of that wall.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Your Max Motor Power % is?

 

[dynamic]

Your Max Motor Power % is?

On some hills I set the bike to 100%. Do you mean some other recorded number?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

On some hills I set the bike to 100%. Do you mean some other recorded number?

I mean you have Assist % and Max Motor Power % which are different figures, and I assume you know what they mean.

 

[dynamic]

I mean you have Assist % and Max Motor Power % which are different figures, and I assume you know what they mean.

In micro tune, they are always the same. So, support and peak power are both whatever micro tune you select. With presets, you can split them out, but I don't use presets or even the default eco/sport/turbo presets anymore. I could see myself wanting to at some point later to extend battery life when I am fit enough to not want more peak power for the hills around here. But currently, I like micro tune which always pairs support and peak power.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Thank you! Good to know!