Espin Flow pedal assist power levels

[BigNerd]

I do think that once you get use to where each PAS falls, combined with proper gearing, it will smooth out for you.

I used to think PAS 1 was too much of an initial jump but after numerous rides, sometimes I think it's not enough... and while it seemed there was a gap between 1 and 2, now I realized it's not that much.

One thing I do know, and this is from riding and owning an Espin with only 5 PAS levels, I don't need more than that. I thought about messing with the controller to switch to 9 PAS levels but I barely use 3 4 and 5 anyways. Maybe it will get me some granularity between 0 and 2 but at that point, who needs it? Stay in 1 or 2 and use the gears to control cadence/speed.

I've also tried to top out at PAS 5 running over 25mph in the highest gear... I didn't feel I was ghost pedaling and quite frankly didn't need to be going that fast in the first place (if you all remember I did crash a few months ago so speed is not my friend).

It's just like my regular bike, I don't use all 27 gears... in fact, it would be better if I just had 1x11 which is the trend now in MTBs. It's simpler and easier on the chain with only one chain ring in the front and just a rear derailleur. As long as it covers the full range, anything more than 11 is probably not needed (but @GenXrider probably knows more about this than I do). That's one of reasons why the Cannondale Quick NEO SL is at the top of my N+1 list, it actually only has 3 PAS levels. My only squabble with it is no throttle (aka @Taylor57 style).

But to each their own, some prefer more, some like me are fine with less.

 

[cldlhd]

I do think that once you get use to where each PAS falls, combined with proper gearing, it's will smooth out for you.

I used to think PAS 1 was too much of an initial jump but after numerous rides, sometimes I think it's not enough... and while it seemed there was a gap between 1 and 2, now I realized it's not that much.

One thing I do know, and this is from riding and owning an Espin with only 5 PAS levels, I don't need more than that. I thought about messing with the controller to switch to 9 PAS levels but I barely use 3 4 and 5 anyways. Maybe it will get me some granularity between 0 and 2 but at that point, who needs it? Stay in 1 or 2 and use the gears to control cadence/speed.

I've also tried to top out at PAS 5 running over 25mph in the highest gear... I didn't feel I was ghost pedaling and quite frankly didn't need to be going that fast in the first place (if you all remember I did crash a few months ago so speed is not my friend).

It's just like my regular bike, I don't use all 27 gears... in fact, it would be better if I just had 1x11 which is the trend now in MTBs. It's simpler and easier on the chain with only one chain ring in the front and just a rear derailleur. As long as it covers the full range, anything more than 11 is probably not needed (but @GenXrider probably knows more about this than I do). That's one of reasons why the Cannondale Quick NEO SL is at the top of my N+1 list, it actually only has 3 PAS levels. My only squabble with it is no throttle (aka @Taylor57 style).

But to each their own, some prefer more, some like me are fine with less.

I was wondering if increasing the number of PAS levels would smooth it out for him a bit. Maybe I'll resist my natural urge to mess with things and leave it alone awhile and see how he gets used to it. He's pretty easy going- his favorite phrase is probably "it's fine" . Either way I like the bike and I'm really looking forward to riding with him when it warms up.

 

[Bubsdaddy]

Just to be clear, from a dead stop, how do you typically get started? Do you pedal and the assist kicks in or do you throttle then pedal? Let's say I am at a stop and need to get across the intersection quickly....what's the best method?

 

[Taylor57]

Just to be clear, from a dead stop, how do you typically get started? Do you pedal and the assist kicks in or do you throttle then pedal? Let's say I am at a stop and need to get across the intersection quickly....what's the best method?

I typically give the throttle a quick press (1 second or less) just to get started, then pedal. If I am on an decline, just get on and start pedaling. Incline, quick throttle. Only other times I really ever have used my throttle is at the end of a 30-40 mile ride and my legs are a little tired or I am going to navigate through some trail where I need to get up off the seat and ride the bike trials style. Then I will give it little bursts to navigate through any trouble. Thats my story...

 

[Bubsdaddy]

I typically give the throttle a quick press (1 second or less) just to get started, then pedal. If I am on an decline, just get on and start pedaling. Incline, quick throttle...

Thanks!

 

[cldlhd]

Just to be clear, from a dead stop, how do you typically get started? Do you pedal and the assist kicks in or do you throttle then pedal? Let's say I am at a stop and need to get across the intersection quickly....what's the best method?

I usually bump the PAS level way up and pedal

 

[GenXrider]

Are there any brands you guys know of that seem to have smoothed out the lower levels of assist? Worst case, someone like @rbermanaz could sell their Espin used and put the money towards a smoother start ebike

For cadence sensor bikes, the only ones I know of are the Ride1Up models I mentioned earlier that allow you to customize power to your liking. https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/espin-flow-pedal-assist-power-levels.35796/post-382973 I've read complaints about the Aventon (Level, Pace) in this regard also. The other question is whether the PAS assists to a specific speed before cutting off assistance or if it provides a consistent amount of power regardless of speed. Kevin of R1U mentioned in an interview last summer that they switched from speed based to current based. I'm still not sure about the Espin. We'll see what AHicks finds out.

 

[GenXrider]

I usually bump the PAS level way up and pedal

On the Espin, does it have more acceration at a higher PAS, or does it just accelerate to a higher top speed under the same amount of acceleration as the lower PAS level? Therefore, power being the same during acceleration in different PAS levels but with top speed being the difference?

 

[GenXrider]

It's just like my regular bike, I don't use all 27 gears... in fact, it would be better if I just had 1x11 which is the trend now in MTBs. It's simpler and easier on the chain with only one chain ring in the front and just a rear derailleur. As long as it covers the full range, anything more than 11 is probably not needed (but @GenXrider probably knows more about this than I do). That's one of reasons why the Cannondale Quick NEO SL is at the top of my N+1 list, it actually only has 3 PAS levels. My only squabble with it is no throttle (aka @Taylor57 style).

But to each their own, some prefer more, some like me are fine with less.

My regular bike has 27 gears also, but other than testing, I never took it off the largest chainring last year, so I just used 9 of the gears, and most of my riding is just over a few gears. I don't care so much about the number of PAS levels as I do that they provide levels of power that allow me to do most of the work on the flats while riding at a moderate speed and easily kick in the extra power when I need it to climb hills. I ride mostly for exercise. If not, then I wouldn't mind the extra power in low PAS levels.

 

[cldlhd]

On the Espin, does it have more acceration at a higher PAS, or does it just accelerate to a higher top speed under the same amount of acceleration as the lower PAS level? Therefore, power being the same during acceleration in different PAS levels but with top speed being the difference?

Honestly not sure. My son only got it recently and we've only had it out twice. Next time it warms up a bit I plan on checking

 

[BigNerd]

Yeah, the Ride1Up is power based. I've mentioned this earlier and in some other threads. Here's an older video where Kevin of Ride1Up talked about moving away from a speed based assist. The video shortcut starts playback at the point in the video where he talks about that change.
https://youtu.be/9tFylNSFmCM?t=1331

Okay, so I've been thinking about this for a while but I don't think there is any difference between "power-based" and "speed-based" assist on a cadence sensor rear-hub bike.

There may be a speed limiter but it's still power-based in that at each PAS level, the motor will only output max X amount of power and reduce/increase that based on cadence, ie the faster you pedal, the less power output and vice versa. There may not even be a speed limiter required because if you limit the power at each PAS level, that also limits the "speed" at which it can help.

I tested this on the Sport because one of the display settings is a P mode where it shows motor output (not sure if that number is watts or current or whatever) but it varies based on how hard/fast you are pedaling and maxes out at a different number for each PAS level.

I watched the R1U video and what he is saying is basically how the Sport works so I think they are the same thing.

 

[cldlhd]

Okay, so I've been thinking about this for a while but I don't think there is any difference between "power-based" and "speed-based" assist on a cadence sensor rear-hub bike.

There may be a speed limiter but it's still power-based in that at each PAS level, the motor will only output max X amount of power and reduce/increase that based on cadence, ie the faster you pedal, the less power output and vice versa. There may not even be a speed limiter required because if you limit the power at each PAS level, that also limits the "speed" at which it can help.

I tested this on the Sport because one of the display settings is a P mode where it shows motor output (not sure if that number is watts or current or whatever) but it varies based on how hard/fast you are pedaling and maxes out at a different number for each PAS level.

I watched the R1U video and what he is saying is basically how the Sport works so I think they are the same thing.

But ... If it is speed based will it stop adding power once you reach a certain speed but you could go faster pedaling harder?

 

[GenXrider]

Okay, so I've been thinking about this for a while but I don't think there is any difference between "power-based" and "speed-based" assist on a cadence sensor rear-hub bike.

To really test if the Espin is speed base, you need to do a good test. One way is to set a low PAS and ghost pedal to see how fast it goes on level ground and how much power it is drawing once you reach a consistent speed, then start pedaling hard and see if the power drops off significantly as your speed increases from your own efforts. If your legs are too weak, you might not be able to perform that test effectively. The Ride1Ups are power based, so they will still assist when you pedal to a higher speed than the motor alone will assist at a given PAS. I don't know about the Espin, but your test doesn't show that. It's not the same as Kevin described pedaling faster while still receiving assist power, but he stammered through it, making off topic comments about where he was riding, and not being real clear on the matter, sounding a little incoherent, so I think most people didn't follow his point. If I recall, some older Radbikes used speed based assist also, and people preferred the change to power based assist. I recommend the test method I mentioned here for testing your Espin.

ie the faster you pedal, the less power output and vice versa.

If the power output dropped significantly after a certain speed threshold, that sounds like the Espin is indeed speed based rather than power based. If it was a small change with hard pedaling, maybe not, since power levels fluctuate. Try the test I mentioned.

ere may not even be a speed limiter required because if you limit the power at each PAS level, that also limits the "speed" at which it can help.

No, the Ride1Up bikes are not limited at the speed they will assist in any PAS level up to the legal class 3 28mph limit. As Kevin said, riding along in a lower PAS at 25 mph, it still assists because it's no longer speed based PAS. So if the assist level is set to only 10% power, it's still going to apply that as you pedal to higher speeds. That might not happen with the Espin in PAS1. But hopefully someone with an Espin can test that and let us know one of these days. It would be easy to test with a little muscle power, as mentioned earlier in my post.

 

[BET]

I was wondering if increasing the number of PAS levels would smooth it out for him a bit. Maybe I'll resist my natural urge to mess with things and leave it alone awhile and see how he gets used to it. He's pretty easy going- his favorite phrase is probably "it's fine" . Either way I like the bike and I'm really looking forward to riding with him when it warms up.

I think you can make some adjustments to the levels in the display using advanced settings but I left mine the way they were. I may have changed the max amperage. I found speed in PAS 1 to be slow enough for me.

 

[BigNerd]

@GenXrider

That was the test I tried.

After watching Kevin’s video I think all cadence assist PAS are the same, “current” % max is controlled by PAS level and how much is by the cadence.

The speed cutoff seems to be a byproduct of the current max but I do think there is a max speed for each PAS too.

But the concept of speed vs power based may be inaccurate as I think all rear hub with cadence sensors operate the same way.

 

[cldlhd]

I think you can make some adjustments to the levels in the display using advanced settings but I left mine the way they were. I may have changed the max amperage. I found speed in PAS 1 to be slow enough for me.

I agree on PAS 1 but thought the jump to 2 was a bit much so was looking to lower 2 a bit. It's my sons bike so if he's happy it's no biggie

 

[GenXrider]

@GenXrider

That was the test I tried.

No it's not. You never mentioned anything about ghost pedaling on level ground to establish a baseline PAS speed along with posting your specific power reading when doing so, and then pedaling with force under same conditions, and posting your specific power reading when doing so. That's the test you need to do. You did not do that. You made some vague comment about power dropping when you went faster, which sounds like speed based CAS, which is what people generally have complained about and Kevin didn't like. Read what I posted carefully. Your additional statements here also show you are not following what I'm saying. This isn't rocket science, so I'm trying to help. Let me explain further with some additional reference here.

After watching Kevin’s video I think all cadence assist PAS are the same, “current” % max is controlled by PAS level and how much is by the cadence.

Pedaling cadence sensors work like an on off switch, not based on how fast or forceful your pedaling is. And no, cadence PAS systems are not all the same - that's what I'm trying to clarify as other have already done before. As mentioned by Kevin at this point in this interview https://youtu.be/9tFylNSFmCM?t=1331, they changed from speed to current (power factor) because power based cadence does NOT drop off power at a certain speed in any assist level as you said your Sport is doing in your vague details about what you tried. I read that Radbikes had made the same change from speed to power based assistance several years ago. See this post in this thread:

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...hrottle-only-as-well-as-pas.26022/post-171934

quote: "My 2016 Radrovers had the original programming with the motor cut-off per mph speed (PAS 1: 4 mph, PAS 2: 8 mph, ..Pas 5: 20 mph). Rad updated the controller in 2017 to the watts per PAS level.
PAS 0: 0 watts
PAS 1: 75 watts
PAS 2: 175 watts
PAS 3: 375 watts
PAS 4: 550 watts
PAS 5: 750 watts
The motor cut-off speed will be exactly the same for PAS 1-5 and throttle once you change it in the LCD screen. The Radcity motor will provide power while pedaling in PAS 1-5 until you reach 40 km/h if you are not using the throttle"

The above quote is saying exactly what I've been saying about cadence sensor "power" based PAS. The speed at which power is applied in any assist level is not limited by the power based PAS up to the legal limit of class 3 at 28 mph (or whatever max global speed limit is configured).

The speed cutoff seems to be a byproduct of the current max but I do think there is a max speed for each PAS too.

Speed refers to the velocity of the bicycle. Power refers to the electrical "watts" used to provide assistance. There is some correlation, but speed is also affected by the rider's pedaling force, ground level, weight of rider, wind, rolling resistance, to name a few. But the big difference in the speed vs. power based systems is as clarified a few times already in that a speed based PAS at a given assist level drops off the power applied to the motor when it hits a specific speed, while with the Ride1Up bike and other power based PAS bikes, the power will NOT drop off at a specific speed in any assist level and will continue applying assistance as the rider pedals faster with force. So you will still get the PAS's power assistance regardless of speed or assist level until you hit the legal limit of 28 mph or configured global speed limit. There's still no clear evidence the Sport will do that or if it's speed limited PAS per assist level as I suspect, as the older Radrover bike described with the mph cutoffs per assist level.

But the concept of speed vs power based may be inaccurate as I think all rear hub with cadence sensors operate the same way.

And hopefully what I explained repeatedly now and referenced to other info above explains again why that is NOT the case, and some providers of these bike have specifically made changes to move from operating in one way to the other. I don't know which method Espin uses, but I could find out easily if I had one. Hopefully someone with an Espin can actually test that.

 

[GenXrider]

I agree on PAS 1 but thought the jump to 2 was a bit much so was looking to lower 2 a bit. It's my sons bike so if he's happy it's no biggie

Since Espin doesn't allow you to tweak the assist levels, only the number of assist levels apparently, a new display and controller might be required. If you haven't increased the number of assist levels to the max, that might reduce the jump.

 

[AHicks]

Got the Flow today (yes, on a Sunday!), perfect condition - they're actually double boxed!
It's assembled now and everything seems to be working fine, even the derailleur. Ride around the block shows there IS some work to do, and there IS a big jump from PAS1 to PAS2. Wife rode it and she's pretty sure she can get used to a few things, but the look on her face says this is going to take some riding and fiddling. Seat is like a rock for starters.... or we're spoiled. Take your pick. It's going bye bye...

1 Cloud 9 coming up....

 

[peakay]

Got the Flow today (yes, on a Sunday!), perfect condition - they're actually double boxed!
It's assembled now and everything seems to be working fine, even the derailleur. Ride around the block shows there IS some work to do, and there IS a big jump from PAS1 to PAS2. Wife rode it and she's pretty sure she can get used to a few things, but the look on her face says this is going to take some riding and fiddling. Seat is like a rock for starters.... or we're spoiled. Take your pick. It's going bye bye...

1 Cloud 9 coming up....

I just added a thread of all the niggles we had with ours and how we fixed. Just FYI.