Why be nasty with personal attacks?
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Espin Flow pedal assist power levels
- Thread starter rbermanaz
- Start date
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't really get that. I mean even in a assist level one if you're in the right gear and pedaling hard enough I would think it would go more than 7 to 8 mph. I would just like to be able to adjust the amount of power being put out by the motor in each assist level. I would think your top speed would be independent of that. In other words when I'm My bike and I'm in PAS 1 or 2 If I'm in the right gear and I'm pedaling enough I'll go up to 20 mph if I want.
The Sport may be using a speed based PAS instead of power based PAS, meaning it won't assist beyond a certain speed threshold in a given assist level. This was discussed as a possibility earlier in the thread. Ride1Up switched from speed to power some time back, maybe Espin hasn't.
I wonder if the Sport can support 2.4" tires with the rim and available clearance with the frame. The tires that come on it are pretty narrow.
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I'll have to take my son's bike for a ride and check it out but I'm sure somebody out here could answer regarding the speed vs power assist. I'm just northeast of Philly so it might be a little bit too chilly this week for that. As far as he's concerned I don't think my son's going to have an issue with the narrower tires, I mean that's one reason I didn't get him the Ride1up roadster v2, I figured those skinny rims and tires it comes with would get bent when we take a ride on the canal trail. I think the ones on the sport are big enough to handle that though we don't really do any hardcore mountain biking. I almost got him the core5 but for the same money The sport came with some upgrades, not sure I can remember them all but a few of them are: hydraulic disc versus mechanical, a front suspension fork, more battery power and it comes with a rack and fenders.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
OK, let's get past this adjustable thing for a minute. IF the bike is capable of 7-8 mph in PAS 1, that should be fine. You can pedal, pause, and pedal again (turn the power on, off, on) to go slower if necessary. That kind of power is not trying to scoot the bike ahead creating a big surge. It's the bikes that take you up over 10-12mph in PAS 1 that makes everyone crazy enough to complain. If you want to go more than 7 or 8 mph, go to PAS 2 or whatever PAS level you need to get the job done. Maybe not perfect, but VERY functional.
Note also that there are different types of PAS assist - as GenX has been saying. There are speed based, which is what I believe we have here on the Espin bikes (because most other bike in this price class are equipped that way), and there are power based PAS assist systems - which you don't see that often - YET! KT systems conversions (like Bolton's RAD kits for instance) offer what they call "imitation torque control" which is a fancy term for power based PAS, and the Bafang mid drives (including the Ultra) both offer the option of going either way - speed or power based PAS. There may be more I'm not aware of, but those are it when it comes to power based PAS to my knowledge. I would offer that the power based PAS is nice and smooth and works really well. Frustrating to me is that I KNOW it's just a slight difference in the software that makes that possible, the hardware to run either is the same. That's why I can see more mfg's offering it further down the line....
We'll soon see how big a tire will fit as well. I'm a big Schwalbe fan. Specs. say 1.95's come on it, and we'll be looking at 2.3"-2.4" if we can.
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If I may jump in for a bit. I have the Aventon Pace 500 and experience the same problem. In 1st gear, it takes off like a jack rabbit up to 12mph. At first it feels intimidating. I’ve searched for ways to reduce that speed and all respondents as well as an Aventon rep said that the controller is not adjustable. I’ve been riding it now for two years and have learned very quickly how to adjust to my style of riding. Firstly, when powered on, be careful of other riders and bikes immediately around you when starting out. If things are too close, then power off and just pedal until you have a safe distance. This is not a problem for me as the bike is extremely easy to pedal without power. Once your in the clear, power up. You will get used to it quickly and not be disappointed. Good luck and ride safe.
Well I guess my 700 series is power based because of the adjustable percentages for each level. Plus I've been in level two and gone over 20 mph pretty often. I'll check out the sport but yeah it feels like when you put it in level two at a lower speed the jolt of power is significant compared to one, I don't mean this as a dig at the bike because it is a great bike especially for the price but I imagine in the future the vast majority of companies will call for the ability to adjust the level. Everybody has different tastes and riding situations after all.
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Yeah, the Ride1Up is power based. I've mentioned this earlier and in some other threads. Here's an older video where Kevin of Ride1Up talked about moving away from a speed based assist. The video shortcut starts playback at the point in the video where he talks about that change.
https://youtu.be/9tFylNSFmCM?t=1331
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Have you tried switching it to 9 power levels instead of 5? I'd assume the jumps between levels would become finer and smaller.
PatriciaK
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Pacific Northwest and Piedmont Triad
You can always use your gears and pedal faster, if you want to get up to closer to 20
.With this price point, and all the extras that ARE included, I'd just bump up to PAS 2 if I weren't going fast enough using the gearing and my own steam... There are always trade-offs, especially with less expensive bikes, and folks just need to decide for themselves which are acceptable and which are not.
In my own case, the hesitancy in pulling the trigger on the Flow is happiness with my mid-drive La Free, and the big difference going to a cadence-sending hub drive would mean in riding. It's still in my picture - my biggest wish is that I could ride before I decide - returns are a hassle in any circumstance!
Not yet I think I saw something on how to do that I'm going to try it before we take it out next time. We've only had it out twice so far so. I would assume it would make a difference as well hopefully that'll be all we need to do. Even if it doesn't he's happy with it. I mean he's 14 and he's got an electric bike, he's got a regular bike also but I figured electric one would be good for taking him on longer rides with me
Yeah he's usually not that rough with his comments. I can't say for sure and I don't like to speak for others but I think maybe the events of the last few days aren't quite how he wished they would have been...
BigNerd
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure my Sport is speed based. PAS 1 doesn't go above 10mph, PAS 2 is 12mph, 3 is 15mph, 4 is 20mph and I think 5 is 28mph. I haven't ridden any other ebikes (other than the Aventon Pace 500) so I don't know what power based feel like in comparison, but I agree it might be better.
I'll look.
BigNerd
Well-Known Member
Sure, but I'm still interested in what actual usage is for you rather than theory.
In theory, mid-drive is better than hub-drive in going up hills and I started looking at mid-drives. But for my actual usage, the rear-hub drive is just fine so I'm not interested in mid-drive anymore.
In theory, I thought bigger tires would be a better ride but now I realize I prefer speed so I bought a non ebike with narrower tires and I like it better than my MTB.
In theory, I though I would always need a suspension fork, in reality... fixed forks work well too.
A reader should always take an owner of an R1U over my opinion of an R1U because I don't own one. That's all I'm trying to say... to consider the ownership experience as another component of value.
I remember we had this discussion over wider tires and speed... well... @Taylor57 actually has 2 Sports, one has slightly wider (and knobbier) tires... which one do you think he feels is faster?
I've ridden them both and maybe I'm biased but I do like the 700 series better, I feel like it fits me better although it does feel heavier. Maybe it's the different frame. I'm 6 ft 2 in and 220 lbs. I like the look of the fatter Schwalbe's though. .....but a lot of that is individual preference and I think you can't go wrong with either.
I'm not stating any theories, only differences in actual features. Sometimes I comment on ones that matter to me specifically. I've ridden many thousands of miles on my bike routes with different styles of bikes with different tire widths from narrow road bike tires to fat tires, so I know what I prefer for my type of riding. You won't see me telling other people that they should get the same size tires as me. I also know how to calculate gear ratios for comparison to my current bike for pedaling cadence at a particular speed, so it's not a theory, it's based on what I prefer based on experience. Someone else may be fine with something lower geared, so I"m not telling someone else they need a 11T cog on their cassette. That's just my preference based on experience with gear ratios, not a theory.
I think those new Ride1Up mid-drives will have quieter motors based on the Brose motor they use. There seem to be a lot of failures with the Brose motors, though. The bikes are lighter and use torque sensor PAS. The MTB looks interesting at $2300.
Ride1UP Mid Drive Teaser
Hey folks, Kevin, the owner of Ride1UP, recently posted a couple of photos teasing the latest mid-drive bike to be introduced later in 2021, initially without any additional details. I thought I'd share the photos here with you as well. Product page: https://ride1up.com/product/prodigy/...
electricbikereview.com
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BigNerd
Well-Known Member
Sigh. You missed my point, it's still theory until you actually own the bike... because preferences can change.
You may find that the things you prefer may not be as important when you consider price, usage, situation, etc.
Let me try again: I wanted fenders because I keep getting dirty from water and occasional mud so that pointed me towards the Sport. But when I got it, I actually like the way it looked better without the fenders and since I take the bike in my van to different places, it's easier to transport without worrying about the fenders.
So my previous opinion about "well it's better because you get fenders" is no longer a high consideration. Same thing with integrated lights (because aftermarket are so much brighter and versatile). I also didn't think hydraulic brakes were a big deal and just added maintenance, but now compared to my mechanical brakes, I prefer hydraulic... but I couldn't know until I owned both.
Anyways... I still look forward to you actually owning an ebike. I do think it's a different experience than a non ebike... and truthfully... I thought it was going to be just an occasional rider but now I prefer it over all my other bikes.
You may find that the things you prefer may not be as important when you consider price, usage, situation, etc.
Let me try again: I wanted fenders because I keep getting dirty from water and occasional mud so that pointed me towards the Sport. But when I got it, I actually like the way it looked better without the fenders and since I take the bike in my van to different places, it's easier to transport without worrying about the fenders.
So my previous opinion about "well it's better because you get fenders" is no longer a high consideration. Same thing with integrated lights (because aftermarket are so much brighter and versatile). I also didn't think hydraulic brakes were a big deal and just added maintenance, but now compared to my mechanical brakes, I prefer hydraulic... but I couldn't know until I owned both.
Anyways... I still look forward to you actually owning an ebike. I do think it's a different experience than a non ebike... and truthfully... I thought it was going to be just an occasional rider but now I prefer it over all my other bikes.
Sorry, I disagree. Your point was simply wrong because you stated that I was theorizing. But I'm not theorizing anything. My preferences are based on many thousands of miles or riding over years of riding. They aren't changing. lol Now, if you didn't really mean "theory", that's not me missing your point, that's you simply misstating your point. You are the one theorizing about someone else when you say that my preferences are suddenly going to change.
"Usage" and experience in my riding "situations" related to the features I described are exactly what I'm talking about. And since I can get my preferred features at the price I'm willing to pay, I don't need to compromise. I know what I like for my type of riding and the routes/roads I ride.
I ride many thousands of miles without fenders, so I can do without them. I also don't have to haul my bike anywhere to ride it. It sounds like you just didn't know what you wanted or needed due to lack of experience. That's fine, but it certainly doesn't apply to me or my situation.
Again, that was just your lack of experience with these things. I have had different aftermarket lights and know what I like. I have used both type of brakes. It's not at the top of my list because the vast majority of my riding is outside of the city where I'm pedaling constantly with very little use of brakes.
I have ridden e-bikes, standard bikes, scooters, mini-bikes, mopeds, motorcycles. I still have motorcycles also. For biking, my purpose is not transportation, but exercise. And I will use an e-bike like a standard bike, for exercise. I mostly wanted assist to help with some of the big hills. My preferences mentioned before won't change just because I'll have some added assist. I hope that clears it up. No theories.
BigNerd
Well-Known Member
Until you *own* it... it's still theoretical opinion without actual physical experience.
We will just have to disagree on that.
I do appreciate your experience which again, is why I'm interested in your review once you actually own one of these ebikes... because although you doubt it, I do think owning one could change preferences, I mean, that's how preferences get formed... from experience. Unless you're a rock... and those even change over time.
We will just have to disagree on that.
I do appreciate your experience which again, is why I'm interested in your review once you actually own one of these ebikes... because although you doubt it, I do think owning one could change preferences, I mean, that's how preferences get formed... from experience. Unless you're a rock... and those even change over time.
I like what I've seen of their new mid drive but not likely in the market anytime soonI'm not stating any theories, only differences in actual features. Sometimes I comment on ones that matter to me specifically. I've ridden many thousands of miles on my bike routes with different styles of bikes with different tire widths from narrow road bike tires to fat tires, so I know what I prefer for my type of riding. You won't see me telling other people that they should get the same size tires as me. I also know how to calculate gear ratios for comparison to my current bike for pedaling cadence at a particular speed, so it's not a theory, it's based on what I prefer based on experience. Someone else may be fine with something lower geared, so I"m not telling someone else they need a 11T cog on their cassette. That's just my preference based on experience with gear ratios, not a theory.
I think those new Ride1Up mid-drives will have quieter motors based on the Brose motor they use. There seem to be a lot of failures with the Brose motors, though. The bikes are lighter and use torque sensor PAS. The MTB looks interesting at $2300.
Ride1UP Mid Drive Teaser
Hey folks, Kevin, the owner of Ride1UP, recently posted a couple of photos teasing the latest mid-drive bike to be introduced later in 2021, initially without any additional details. I thought I'd share the photos here with you as well. Product page: https://ride1up.com/product/prodigy/...
