EM3ev explains how BBSxx series motors handle PAS

[tomjasz]

Booooolshit!

Is finding manuals difficult?
It's totally frustrating when a simple Google search can answer many questions. I have several unrelated electronic devices and none cam with anything more than start-up directions.

I answer an email/phone query every day from someone whose vendor can't be reached. A Google search would save everyone time.

We're still small potatoes to them as a marketplace.

Yes very true!

Bafang has never wanted these details to be available to end users,

And they have never liked 52V batteries.

 

[Art Deco]

You have to take into account the sheer size of Bafang, and its focus on the utility rider market in the Far East. Nuanced conversations like these are to them like the Chinese language is to us - utterly foreign. We're still small potatoes to them as a marketplace. In their world, where they sell the vast majority of their production output, the factory settings are what everyone should use, without tinkering. Hell... EVERY settings adjustment tool out in the wild for a BBSxx was created by an outsider. Bafang has never wanted these details to be available to end users, and at times has made decisions that are considered good for its target audience and catastrophic for the Western DIY user (I'm thinking particularly of the PAS/throttle override issue with the firmware a couple of years ago that I think still affects almost all of the HD units not sold by Luna). More recently, it seems the motors not from Luna have an issue that deprecates/prevents the full use of a 52v battery.

We get what we do out of the Bafang motors not because the factory approves of what we're doing. We get these benefits despite them. If you've ever tried to do any tuning to a late model Mopar hot rod its exactly the same issue where the mfr (first DaimlerChrysler, then FCA and now Stellantis) deems the software as its intellectual property and the end users say 'screw you' and figure out how to do it anyway.

I have no experience here, but that is exactly what I would expect from a large Chinese manufacturer of anything. Yet the product is good enough that you fight your way thru to make it work well is also impressive, and unexpected. To me anyway.

 

[AHicks]

At this point, I'm very tempted to go back to all of the original settings, other than just a few that have to deal with how hard the throttle hits when accelerating from a stop. That was just too abrupt, no getting around it...

Now to find those original setting notes.....

 

[m@Robertson]

Yet the product is good enough that you fight your way thru to make it work well is also impressive, and unexpected. To me anyway.

Thats all because I was not the first pioneer on the trail. Others before me took all the arrows. Its a shame the manufacturer essentially is benefiting from this user community commitment to helping sell their products... but there again we're just a niche, and a tiny one at that.

Look at what Luna has done with their new BBSHD controller. Its a total game changer developed entirely because Bafang was so intransigent. Its open sourced so no more mysterious potholes showing up out of nowhere. Hopefully it will be generally available at some point (early on in its development this was the plan we'll see if it can be achieved).

Luna BBSHD Ludicrous V2 Released!

The Ludicrous V2 is the result of many months of R&D designing a motor controller from scratch with the latest innovations in motor control, spanning over 100,000 lines of code, the best automotive qualified materials, and vastly proven building blocks; all tightly integrated into the stock...

lunacycle.com

 

[Gionnirocket]

Is finding manuals difficult?
It's totally frustrating when a simple Google search can answer many questions. I have several unrelated electronic devices and none cam with anything more than start-up directions.

I answer an email/phone query every day from someone whose vendor can't be reached. A Google search would save everyone time.

Yes very true!

And they have never liked 52V batteries.

If I download a manual from a Google search... am I #hash tagging?

 

[tomjasz]

we're just a niche, and a tiny one at that.

Look at what Luna has done with their new BBSHD controller.

I’m seeing motors that are a real mess. I’m unimpressed. Buyers need to be aware of the issues. LighteningRods mid drive leaves it in the dust.

 

[Mike_V]

I've tried for years to get basic information from Bafang. There are no accessible serial numbers to sort which version of firmware, which motor, and which controller a user has.

I remember only too well the week Bafang started shipping 02B, and 01B versions. No announcement. Luna was the largest North American reseller and couldn't get that info. I and others have asked for years to have a complete parts list. Forget about a parts schematic!

That said, I still like my BBSxx series motors. For me the best mid-drive kits available.

The BBSO2 functionality described here in your quote is the best feature and maybe least noticed by some, I think:

"If you are pedalling hard and can feel you are applying some effort, the motor will automatically do less of the work and the cyclist, will do more of the work, meaning you will travel further on a charge. It is simple, you control how much effort you want to apply, by either pedalling harder, or with less power, so therefore letting the motor do more of the work."

The dynamic 'effort' control over the motor system with it's electronic feedback works great.

 

[tomjasz]

The BBSO2 functionality described here in your quote is the best feature and maybe least noticed by some, I think:

"If you are pedalling hard and can feel you are applying some effort, the motor will automatically do less of the work and the cyclist, will do more of the work, meaning you will travel further on a charge. It is simple, you control how much effort you want to apply, by either pedalling harder, or with less power, so therefore letting the motor do more of the work."

The dynamic 'effort' control over the motor system with it's electronic feedback works great.

Are well allowed to agree?

 

[tomjasz]

BBSO2 functionality

I’m a complete fanboy. Riding BBS01A versions since 2014. I’m in the camp where ludicrous failures and cost are eclipsed by a lightning-rods mid drive. I have to wonder why Bafang dumbed down 52V batts? Mosfets on early versions were NOT up to the task. Luna hired staff to develop the ludicrous but IMNSHO, it’s a half assed solution. No intent to discourage ludicrous users, but the added stresses are a real issue. For a time it looked like there might be a cooperative effect but egos ended the project. From my view they were lopsided.

 

[m@Robertson]

LighteningRods mid drive leaves it in the dust.

An LR Big Block leaves most everything in the dust. But its an absolute tank. And its really more of an expert-builder kind of motor for someone who is looking to make a statement. I wanted to put a Tangent Ascent on my Guerilla Gravity Smash, partly because Tangent had made a special in-triangle mount, and partly because 6000w. I have to admit a similar desire to make a statement. Especially given the service interval and procedure to keep that little monster greased up properly. But that little motor was a legend.

A BBSHD or 02 on the other hand is an everyman motor. Its the Ford Mustang of ebikes - Not too expensive, relatively easy to install, easy to work on and easy to make it go fast. With that said, there's probably only two vendors I would trust to sell me one: Luna and Cali Ebike. And despite having like 5 or 6 of them, None of mine have so much as a Ludi v1 on them. I've had the opportunity to buy both and passed (I did have a 50a BAC800 from ERT all set to go but it came to a bad end before installation, and I'm kinda glad I kept it off an otherwise clean and reliable bike).

I might do a Ludi v2 after they've been out in the wild for awhile and people have formulae for different personalities as we do now with HD programming. But not until then. We've already seen things like field weakening allowing increased speed with the same volts and amps going in.

Really, I think the HD - with the right programming to suit the rider - is just the right amount of power to get you around that does not give you worries about breaking things. Pump it up with a BAC or Ludi controller and you are no longer riding a reliable mainstream motor. But anyone with a hot rod car, motorbike or now ebike is not in it for reliability.

 

[Angela M.]

I'm disappointed that this wasn't posted in the "Discussion by brand and user forum - Bafang". so that it could be referenced fairly easily later on. In the general forum it's going to be buried quickly.

Myself, I love reading about other's thoughts on the topic. Seems like I frequently pick up little pieces that better my understanding! I don't think many folks have a real good understanding of all of the little pieces that make these things tik.....

Maybe we could get it moved?

psssst....just tag me

 

[harryS]

I think EM3EV Paul wrote that a long time ago, probably before I even bought my BBS02 in 2016. The same cautions apply to any mid drive, even if you have torque sensing instead of cadence. You gotta be ready in the right gear.

 

[tomjasz]

Ford Mustang of ebikes

That would convince me NOT to use. Mustangs sucked. Miserable steering crap performance for the common versions. But bring I only had experiences with them in 1968-1973.

Not too expensive,

With upgrades it’s less reliable and over priced.

 

[tomjasz]

But its an absolute tank.

Which bike did you ride with lighteningrods?

 

[m@Robertson]

Which bike did you ride with lighteningrods?

I haven't. But they are *enormous* which is to be expected considering the power they deliver. When you look at a big block build, 'understated' or 'easy' is never going to be a word used with one. They generally involve custom mounting and a lot of skill to make happen. You had better have your stuff together if you want to build with one, and that puts them totally in a different league from a mass market DIY kit. In fact it says right on the web site the delay for delivery is weeks because each is custom built after the order is placed.

That would convince me NOT to use. Mustangs sucked. Miserable steering crap performance for the common versions. But bring I only had experiences with them in 1968-1973.

I never had a problem devouring/passing even the Shelbys on a race track. The rear axle sealed their fate in cornering no matter how much you did to jack up the rest of them. That includes the late model Shelbys or whatever they call their halo model in a given year. I understand they finally fixed that stupid rear suspension but I got out of motorsport before they came around.

But that is a driver's perspective and its all wrong in terms of evaluating the product. Mustangs are a huge success. They are a volume player that has been on sale for decades with no end in sight. Over and above the literally millions of buyers who just drive them, their major appeal in the auto DIY world has always been the price of admission to buy one in the first place is cheap. They are easy and inexpensive to modify. There is an enormous body of community knowledge available about what to do with them, and there is a huge aftermarket of products supporting them. Thats pretty much the the BBSxx story as well.

 

[tomjasz]

You gotta be ready in the right gear.

I ran a BBSHD without ever shifting on our flat streets. It was a seven-speed with a 42T Lekkie. Typicall 3rd or 4th gear. I don't remember what the tooth count was. I did HUNDREDS of throttle starts from a dead stop. Several thousand miles and when I opened it up presale I found no issues.

A BBS01 or BBS02 would be toast.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I ran a BBSHD without ever shifting on our flat streets. It was a seven-speed with a 42T Lekkie. Typicall 3rd or 4th gear. I don't remember what the tooth count was. I did HUNDREDS of throttle starts from a dead stop. Several thousand miles and when I opened it up presale I found no issues.

A BBS01 or BBS02 would be toast.

That's why I always travel with butter and jam

 

[m@Robertson]

I ran a BBSHD without ever shifting on our flat streets. It was a seven-speed with a 42T Lekkie. Typicall 3rd or 4th gear. I don't remember what the tooth count was. I did HUNDREDS of throttle starts from a dead stop

Yup it can definitely be done without much concern even though everyone, myself included, warns about it. Here in table-flat Central California with a 42T Lekkie, so long as I am somewhere in the middle of the cassette I'll be fine. On pavement that is.

Really, the same goes for mild inclines on pavement as well. I have loaned my Stormtrooper to friends at the coast and left it in a middle gear so they don't have to do anything but push the throttle to get around. They're fine. Part of the reason for that is the rear cluster is a welded steel HG400-9, and the cassette body is steel as well. The motor/nylon gear is ok thanks to the 21T in the back.

Its not the efficient way to use a mid but for their purposes it gets them around nice and peppy up to maybe 20 mph, which feels fast to them, without having to worry about breaking anything.

 

[Xyeet]

I've been using Kepler's from endless-sphere settings for bbs02. It sets max speeds to 100% on all pas levels and then the current goes up in increments of 10(1-10%, 2-20% etc.) With these settings cycling feels the most natural out of everything I've tested so far.

A Hacker’s Guide To Programming The BBS02 & BBSHD

One way that the BBS02 middrive unit shines over other competition like the Bosch is the ability to program the controller yourself. Although the process of programming the controller will void any…

electricbike-blog.com

 

[Ridetoglide]

I've been using Kepler's from endless-sphere settings for bbs02. It sets max speeds to 100% on all pas levels and then the current goes up in increments of 10(1-10%, 2-20% etc.) With these settings cycling feels the most natural out of everything I've tested so far.

A Hacker’s Guide To Programming The BBS02 & BBSHD

One way that the BBS02 middrive unit shines over other competition like the Bosch is the ability to program the controller yourself. Although the process of programming the controller will void any…

electricbike-blog.com

I see the utility in both types of programming... ( both 100% speed and speed/pas limited ). I have mine at different speed (RPM) limits for different pas levels.

I think the amount of Bafang powered ebikes purchased in the USA and Canada is about to explode... enough for Bafang to realize the USA is becoming a major market for them.