EBike Quick Charge: Ultra-fast charging battery to substitute for Specialized SL Extender battery? Logarithmic Charging Strategy.

[BikeMike]

Grin's programmable charger is discussed on several other theads as well and is a favorite among DIY battery builders. As you quoted in #36 above there is a handshake between the specialized battery and charger that is not implemented in Grin's charger.

I'm not finding any spec that indicates that Specizlized is using the CANbus protocol for their handshake, but it is possible as they use the same port for diagnostics. Implementing this with Grin's charger would give you an 8A charger that might work with the Specialized extender battery. However, there's no reason to believe that this battery can safely handle such high charge rates, battery life aside.

As others have mentioned the battery will incorporate a BMS (battery management system) that among other things helps prevent over and under voltage conditions that can lead to dramatic failures. The BMS itself may limit charging currents to 1C or less, ~4A in the case of the extender battery. Again, no specs but if you decide to give it a go I'd suggest setting everything up outside, just in case...

I will need one charger able to handle both the internal and external batteries. The two batteries will have different electrical inputs.

My immediate goal is to educate myself. I am very cautious with electronics and electrical appliances.

My hope is to find a product that is designed for this specific purpose. I also hope to indirectly find an ebike that is designed for fast charging. Bikepacking is different from typical cycling:

Opportunity charging is charging the battery whenever power is available or between partial discharges rather than waiting for the battery to be completely discharged. It is used with batteries in cycle service, and in applications when energy is available only intermittently.

 

[BikeMike]

Grin's programmable charger is discussed on several other theads as well and is a favorite among DIY battery builders. As you quoted in #36 above there is a handshake between the specialized battery and charger that is not implemented in Grin's charger.

I'm not finding any spec that indicates that Specizlized is using the CANbus protocol for their handshake, but it is possible as they use the same port for diagnostics. Implementing this with Grin's charger would give you an 8A charger that might work with the Specialized extender battery. However, there's no reason to believe that this battery can safely handle such high charge rates, battery life aside.

As others have mentioned the battery will incorporate a BMS (battery management system) that among other things helps prevent over and under voltage conditions that can lead to dramatic failures. The BMS itself may limit charging currents to 1C or less, ~4A in the case of the extender battery. Again, no specs but if you decide to give it a go I'd suggest setting everything up outside, just in case...

The BMS might need to be bypassed with a jumper cable from the motherboard.

• Split from the thick cable coming from the motherboard?
• I don't require the main battery, so it can be removed, if that is advantageous.
• Somebody must have replaced the power subsystem with an ultra fast charging battery. Many people want a fast charging battery.

 

[BikeMike]

Supercharger – When will we finally see proper eMTB quick chargers?

Whether it’s an electric car or a smartphone, fast charging is on everyone’s lips and is regarded as the key to the success of e-mobility. Unfortunately, there are still big differences in the charging times of eMTBs. Here is an overview of the status quo and what the future could hold. Using a...

ebike-mtb.com

Charging times Bosch eBike Systems (500 Wh battery)

Charger	Charging current	Charging time 0-100%	Charging time 0-50 %	Size	Weight
Compact Charger	2 A	7.5 h	3.5 h	160 x 75 x 45 mm	Approx. 600 g
Standard Charger	4 A	4.5 h	2 h	190 x 86 x 54 mm	Approx. 800 g
Fast Charger	6 A	3 h	1.2 h	200 x 90 x 60 mm	Approx. 1,000 g

Towards the end, charging speed decreases

Loading times Haibike FLYON (630 Wh)

Charger	Charging time 20-80%	Charging time 20-100%	Charging time 0-80%	Charging time 0-100%	Size	Weight
4 A charger	1.8 h	3.1 h	2.5 h	3.8 h	210 x 100 x 60 mm	810 g
10 A charger	0.8 h	1.3 h	1.0 h	1.5 h	230 x 160 x 70 mm	2,275 g

The 10 A charger is a so-called smart charger as it communicates with the battery via a CAN bus before charging, limiting the current to a level that the battery can withstand. The batteries internal electronics are supplied by TQ-Systems and are designed to meet the high performance standards of their TQ HPR 120S motor. Supposedly the battery doesn’t age prematurely due to rapid charging either. The cells are specifically designed to withstand higher currents, meaning that even at 10 A they’re under no strain.

 

[BikeMike]

Quick charging system for E-bikes

The e-bike market is booming. Thanks to electric support, cyclists can choose their routes more freely, elderly people can stay mobile, and commuters reach their workplace stress-free. This makes many people use bicycles instead of cars. Presently, charging of the battery takes about two to four...

phys.org

The new quick charging process is to be based on lithium-ion cells of long service life, to reach a comparably high charging current of up to ten amperes, and to be suited for recharge at normal 230 V plugs within less than one hour. In addition, the battery management system is to offer a diagnosis function: the data measured while the e-bike is used are acquired via an internet-of-things solution (IoT), analyzed, and streamed in the internal Coboc cloud. These data reveal the state of charge (SOC) and the state of health (SOH) of the battery, which influence each other.

 

[Sierratim]

The BMS might need to be bypassed with a jumper cable from the motherboard.

Use caution. At its heart the BMS is a safety device. It monitors the voltage for each set of series connected batteries to assure there is no over or under voltage condition on any single set of cells. A 36V pack typically has 14 sets of cells connected in parallel so 14 inputs to the BMS. If an under or over voltage condition is detected in any individual set of cells, the BMS cuts the power output of the pack. Defeating the BMS can result in fires, etc., esp when the cells are being charged at high C rates.

 

[BikeMike]

Haibike's new FLYON electric bicycles are so powerful they need an air intake

There are a number of impressive competitors in the high-end electric bicycle market, including innovative offerings from companies like Optibike...

electrek.co

The e-bikes come standard with a 4 A (approximately 200 W) wall charger, but Haibike offers a high power 10 A (approximately 500 W) charger that can fill an empty battery to 80% capacity in just one hour.

Haibike® FLYON ePerformance System | Model overview

Whether in terms of integration, digitalization or performance - Haibike FLYON sets new standards in the high-end sector. Discover the first Haibike-own ePerformance system and our powerful FLYON bikes.

www.haibike.com

I might actually be looking for something closer to this:

Haibike | XDURO Adventr 5.0 | Haibike FLYON trekking e-bike

Life is made for adventures! Thanks to its 120Nm motor, the XDURO Adventr 5.0 will get you over the highest mountains and through the deepest valleys.

www.haibike.com

 

[BikeMike]

Use caution. At its heart the BMS is a safety device. It monitors the voltage for each set of series connected batteries to assure there is no over or under voltage condition on any single set of cells. A 36V pack typically has 14 sets of cells connected in parallel so 14 inputs to the BMS. If an under or over voltage condition is detected in any individual set of cells, the BMS cuts the power output of the pack. Defeating the BMS can result in fires, etc., esp when the cells are being charged at high C rates.

I want to buy a bike suited to my purposes. I don't really want to hack a bike. This might be closer to my needs:

Haibike | XDURO Adventr 5.0 | Haibike FLYON trekking e-bike

Life is made for adventures! Thanks to its 120Nm motor, the XDURO Adventr 5.0 will get you over the highest mountains and through the deepest valleys.

www.haibike.com

 

[Sierratim]

I think Haibike's FLYON is as close as you can get to your goals with today's product offerings. Their 10A charger coupled with their high C battery cells looks to get you 80% capacity in their 630wh battery in ~3/4 of an hour. The charger is necessarily on the heavy side at ~5lbs but if it meets your needs it'll be a lot faster, and safer, than trying to do a hack of an existing battery/charger.

 

[BikeMike]

I think Haibike's FLYON is as close as you can get to your goals with today's product offerings. Their 10A charger coupled with their high C battery cells looks to get you 80% capacity in their 630wh battery in ~3/4 of an hour. The charger is necessarily on the heavy side at ~5lbs but if it meets your needs it'll be a lot faster, and safer, than trying to do a hack of an existing battery/charger.

I never thought that a charger would be my search criteria! Makes me smile!

Not a search option on this website.

 

[BikeMike]

I think Haibike's FLYON is as close as you can get to your goals with today's product offerings. Their 10A charger coupled with their high C battery cells looks to get you 80% capacity in their 630wh battery in ~3/4 of an hour. The charger is necessarily on the heavy side at ~5lbs but if it meets your needs it'll be a lot faster, and safer, than trying to do a hack of an existing battery/charger.

Very surprising. I expected 100 miles to be unattainable.

Searching by range does not seem to be a search option, either.

15mph is a bit surprising. decoupling resistance is important with a 15 mph limiter, as this video stresses.

Flyon, HPR120S, 25 km/h, 120 Nm

Range	Up to 125 Miles
Lights	Fitted LED Front+Rear

 

[BikeMike]

The conclusion i have reached at this point is, I require:

1. 10A minimum charger, with batteries designed to charge within one hour
   1. 5 pound weight limit
   2. I never thought the charger weight was significant, but i will carry it everywhere.
2. 28mph speed limit, i hate hitting motor speed walls
3. Almost imperceptible motor decoupling resistance

That bike will be available in the foreseeable future, because the components are available in existing eBikes.

 

[BikeMike]

I don't think you'll find an e-bike of your dreams easily.

The components are available in two existing bikes today. It's just a matter of time until competition combines the best of two outstanding bikes. My dream bike will be realized in the foreseeable future.

EBike Quick Charge: Ultra-fast charging battery to substitute for Specialized SL Extender battery? Logarithmic Charging Strategy.

Grin's programmable charger is discussed on several other theads as well and is a favorite among DIY battery builders. As you quoted in #36 above there is a handshake between the specialized battery and charger that is not implemented in Grin's charger. I'm not finding any spec that indicates...

electricbikereview.com

 

[BikeMike]

My personal motto is: follow where the evidence leads you. I arrived at a much different place than where I originally started. As a mechanical cyclist, the riding experience is of paramount importance. I don't care about motor power or battery capacity. Those features are primarily a hinderance to the bike feel.

My Actual Requirements​

A: 10 Amp Charger

• High C Batteries designed to charge within one hour
• Charger weighing less than five pounds
• Total bike weight, including charger, under 33 pounds.
• I expect to carry charger on trips over 50 miles.

B: 28 mph Speed Limiter
C: Almost Imperceptible Decoupled Motor Resistance

S: My Dream Bike - realizable in the foreseeable future

BC: Specialized Creo SL
SA: Haibike FlyOn Adventure

​

 

[BikeMike]

The best eMTB motor of 2021 – The 8 hottest motors in test

Which ebike motor is best? We tested seven of the most important motors in our group test and tell you what it’s all about on the trail.

ebike-mtb.com

Haibike’s FLYON range featuring the powerful TQ motor comes with a 630 Wh battery. If you’re looking for a lot of power and you tend to keep your rides short, this is a great motor. However, you’ll run into problems if you want to go on longer rides unless you resort to using the energy-saving but also weak Eco mode. Specialized’s SL 1.1 motor is at the other extreme of the spectrum. It is an excellent concept for fit and aggressive riders who are looking for natural handling close to that of an unpowered bike thanks to its modular battery system, compact dimensions, low weight. However, the low power output means this is not the bike for those who want that eMTB-superman feeling on the climbs. As you can see, how you use your eMTB and how the system performs as a whole is the decisive factor here.

So, which is the best motor?
There is no longer just one best eMTB motor. The market has become too differentiated and on account of the countless variables and customisation options, there’s no way of rating the different motors in isolation either. The best motor is only as good as the bike into which it’s built. If the basic concept of the bike doesn’t work, even the best motor won’t be able to transform it into a good eMTB. Think carefully about when, how, and where you want to ride. Once you’ve figured that out, we’ve compiled an overview on the following pages to show you which motor is most suitable for you and your riding style

 

[BikeMike]

Top secret battery chemistry: how does your eMTB’s lithium-ion battery work?

eMTB battery technology – everything you need to know about lithium-ion batteries

ebike-mtb.com

Finding the optimal combination and mix of materials is very tricky: the electrode material determines the voltage output during normal operation and determines the electrical current nominal output voltage. The storable energy in turn depends on the nature of the materials used. In addition, a battery must also be able to survive many charging cycles, which is why different materials are used for the stabilising layers.

Whatever the cocktail ultimately contains, the general rule is that the more uniform the chemical composition of the battery, the higher its performance and lifetime.

With a rechargeable battery, energy is stored in a reversible electrochemical processes.

Currently, there is a lot of interest in the composition of the electrolyte, with a lot of research into replacing the current organic electrolyte with an inorganic one in order to increase energy density and ultimately the range. It’s a tricky thing: the electrolyte has to be capable of handling a current of around four volts. Since watery electrolytes form reactive gases at this voltage, resulting in a reduced lifespan of the battery, organic solvents (mixed with conductive salts) are still the medium of choice.

Lithium is a naturally reactive and self-flammable light metal. Depending on the type of battery, the temperature limit can be between 150° C and 250° C. If this limit is exceeded, the lithium reacts with other components of the battery cell, generating even more heat, creating a runaway thermal reaction. At around 300° C, the liquid electrolyte will start burning. To prevent this from happening, lithium-ion batteries have an integrated electronic circuit, the so-called battery management system. It acts as a control unit and ensures that all the cells experience equal loads. After all, good management is supposed to ensure a healthy and happy long-term working environment.

So what’s the deciding factor here? You can guess the answer: it’s the chemical components and their influence on the charging process, which brings us back to those top secret files.

• While Bosch’s Fast Charger achieves a full charge in three hours,
• the Shimano STEPS EC-E6000 quick charger takes four hours.
• TQ are one step ahead and manage to charge a 630 Wh battery to 80% capacity in one hour.
• The Bosch Fast Charger reaches only 40% of a 500 Wh battery in one hour.
• 
  
• However, these differences could be just as much due to chemistry as they could to
• how the batteries are ultimately packaged
• or the charging currents the manufacturers allow.

 

[BikeMike]

Ultra-fast Charging – Battery University

Learn about battery technology, battery maintenance and battery life at Battery University

batteryuniversity.com

A well designed ultra-fast charger evaluates the battery condition to match the charge current with the abortion rate.

• The charger should also adjust to temperature and observe cell balance.
• Furthermore, the recommended ultra-fast charger should have three settings:
  • Overnight Charge (0.5C);
  • Fast Charge (0.8–1C) and
  • Ultra-fast Charge (above 1C).
• This allows the user to limit ultra-fast charging to only when needed and at a suitable temperature.
• While such a charger may not yet exist, basic battery knowledge and common sense should prevail when charging batteries in an unconventional way.

 

[BikeMike]

THE BOSCH eBIKE CHARGER

Fast Charger
The Fast Charger is currently the fastest eBike charger in its class and will recharge the eBike battery in the shortest possible time. After just three hours, the powerful PowerTube 500 or PowerPack 500 are fully recharged. The Fast Charger needs just over one hour to charge a battery to 50% capacity. This makes it the perfect charger for fast recharging while on a trip. The Fast Charger is ideal for eBikes that are often used and frequently charged.


The details at a glance

	Compact Charger	Standard Charger	Fast Charger*
	Charging time	Charging time	Charging time
Charging current	max. 2 A	max. 4 A	max. 6 A
Supply voltage	100-240 V	220-240 V	220-240 V
Size approx.	160 x 75 x 45 mm	190 x 86 x 54 mm	200 x 90 x 60 mm
Wire length approx.	AC-Input: ca. 1,5 m, DC-Output: ca. 1,0 m	AC-Input: ca. 1,5 m, DC-Output: ca. 1,0 m	AC-Input: ca. 1,5 m, DC-Output: ca. 1,0 m
Connectors	Country-specific power plugs	Country-specific power plugs	Country-specific power plugs
Weight approx.	600 grams	800 grams	1000 grams
Compatibility	Active Line / Active Line Plus / Cargo Line / Performance Line / Performance Line CX / Classic + Line compatible using adapter plug
PowerPack 300	50% in approx. 2 h, 100% in approx. 5 h	50% in approx. 1 h, 100% in approx. 2.5 h	50% in approx. 1 h, 100% in approx. 2.5 h
PowerPack 400 / PowerTube 400	50% in approx. 2.5 h, 100% in approx. 6.5 h	50% in approx. 1.5 h, 100% in approx. 3.5 h	50% in approx. 1 h, 100% in approx. 2.5 h
PowerPack 500 / PowerTube 500	50% in approx. 3.5 h, 100% in approx. 7.5 h	50% in approx. 2 h, 100% in approx. 4.5 h	50% in approx. 1.2 h, 100% in approx. 3 h
PowerTube 625	50% in approx. 4.2 h, 100% in approx. 8.8 h	50% in approx. 2.1 h, 100% in approx. 4.9 h	50% in approx. 1.4 h, 100% in approx. 3.7 h
DualBattery 1250	50% in approx. 8.4 h, 100% in approx. 17.6 h	50% in approx. 4.2 h, 100% in approx. 9.8 h	50% in approx. 2.8 h, 100% in approx. 7.4 h

Charging current
Supply voltage
Size approx.
Wire length approx.
Connectors
Weight approx.
Compatibility
PowerPack 300
PowerPack 400 / PowerTube 400
PowerPack 500 / PowerTube 500
PowerTube 625
DualBattery 1250

*Charging current is limited to 4 A for the PowerPack 300 and Classic + Line batteries.

 

[BikeMike]

52V Battery Pack - Wide Format Case

Battery Packs for CrossCurrent, OceanCurrent, RipCurrent and HyperFat with capacity up to 1 kWh!

www.juicedbikes.com

8A fast charging

 

[BikeMike]

e-Bike Battery Discharge Rate 4C vs. 3C | LaBatteria

Battery discharge ability are governed by C-rates | capacity of a battery is commonly rated at 1C, meaning that a fully charged battery rated at 1Ah should provide 1A for one hour. The same battery discharging at 2C it delivers 2A for 30 minutes | Ride Further. Ride Stronger | LaBatteria | 48V...

www.labatteria.co.il

Many battery packs in Israel have been rated at 3C, meaning it delivers 3A for 20 minutes. Better than this is a 4C rating, meaning it delivers 4A for 15 minutes. This will provide more power when needed and hence shows a battery quality with higher specifications. LaBatteria provides all our battery packs with top specification 4C rating to provide all our customers the optimum usage ability of our products.

 

[BikeMike]

View attachment 57825
My Actual Requirements
A: 10 Amp Charger

• High C Batteries designed to charge within one hour
• Charger weighing less than five pounds
• Total bike weight, including charger, under 33 pounds.
• I expect to carry charger on trips over 50 miles.

B: 28 mph Speed Limiter
C: Almost Imperceptible Decoupled Motor Resistance

S: My Dream Bike - realizable in the foreseeable future

BC: Specialized Creo SL
SA: Haibike FlyOn Adventure
AB: JuicedBikes with 3C battery pack cells. Can 8Fun motor be decoupled?

CrossCurrent S2: Electric Commuter E-Bike

One of best electric commuter bikes, the CrossCurrent S2 is the perfect e-bike for budget-conscious riders who want maximum riding range and speed at an affordable price.

www.juicedbikes.com

It all starts with the new battery pack

3C Cells
The foundation for a higher level of performance is made possible by the new generation of 3C discharge cells. Each cell is better able to deliver more power and maintain higher speeds throughout the entire discharge cycle.

More range
The base level 52V battery with 13 Amp-Hours is enough for around 50 miles of range.

Let’s be real
Range varies with a host of different factors. Rather than report inflated figures, we have taken the time to test and report real world range figures with extensive testing in the field.