EBike Quick Charge: Ultra-fast charging battery to substitute for Specialized SL Extender battery? Logarithmic Charging Strategy.

ToshibaEdit

An example of a SCiB battery

Toshiba released a lithium-titanate battery, dubbed "Super Charge Ion Battery" (SCiB).[21][22]

The battery is designed to offer 90% charge capacity in just 10 minutes.[23]

SCiB batteries are used in the Schwinn Tailwind electric bike.[24]

Toshiba has also demonstrated its use as a prototype laptop battery.[25]

Toshiba SCiB batteries are used in a Japan-only version of Mitsubishi's i-MiEV and Minicab MiEV[2] electric vehicles, and

Honda uses them in its EV-neo electric bike and Fit EV, which launched in the summer of 2012.
 
The connector was Rosenberger for the Specialized Turbo series. Don’t know about the current line-up but should be very easy to find out.

Specialized does use the Rosenerger connector. Great piece of hardware! The connector on my Vado has 2 larger diameter power pins and 4 smaller connections on the bike, 2 power pins and 1 small pin on the charger. I would take the smaller conectors for comm pins. it's the comm pins that make using a generic charger an unknown. Will the battery pack even recognize a non-Specialized charger, or external battery pack where appropriate? Only Specialized knows, and they aren't sayin'.
 
Think OBCD in cars. OBCD is the same thing as an eBike controller. You can edit the entire car database from OBCD with a cell phone. I've taken advantage of it when it comes to car registration.
On Board Diagnostics (OBD) has become a near automotive standard if for no other reason that independent shops can't function without it. Bicycles aren't there yet. They could be, when there is enough user demand.

From a retired EE I would like to share that an automotive OBD interface is not really the same as an ebike controller. Some ebike controllers are programmable, but they are all at their core power management systems. Automotive OBDs are not. The battery BMS systems not withstanding.
 
I found this covid19 airplane simulation so revealing, that i feel everyone show be aware of it. The momentum of air the key to understanding how covid19 is so infectious. Walking spreads virus particles further than coughing.

Perhaps a different thread?
 
ToshibaEdit
An example of a SCiB battery

Toshiba released a lithium-titanate battery, dubbed "Super Charge Ion Battery" (SCiB).[21][22]

The battery is designed to offer 90% charge capacity in just 10 minutes.[23]

SCiB batteries are used in the Schwinn Tailwind electric bike.[24]

Toshiba has also demonstrated its use as a prototype laptop battery.[25]

Toshiba SCiB batteries are used in a Japan-only version of Mitsubishi's i-MiEV and Minicab MiEV[2] electric vehicles, and

Honda uses them in its EV-neo electric bike and Fit EV, which launched in the summer of 2012.
Very interesting. Then it is only a matter of 1-2years before this type of cells get to the ebike industry and may allow for FAST charging (8-10amps ?)Or 12Ah ? Wouldn't that be really sweet...

Also the capacity may increase.
Around 2013-2015, a battery pack had 400wh

2015-2018- 500wh

2018-2020-600wh for many commuter ebikes and even 720WH for some Emtb.

The highest that i know of for a commercial emtb is Olympia bike brand with a 900WH pack for their emtb. There is also the very rare M1 Spitzing with 1080WH. This are the normal 50-60lb ebikes not the big motorcycle look alikes.
 
Then it is only a matter of 1-2years before this type of cells get to the ebike industry and may allow for FAST charging (8-10amps ?)Or 12Ah ? Wouldn't that be really sweet...
I'm suggesting 5 years, but then it is all a matter of demand...😎
 

StoreDot’s batteries, while still part of the larger class of Li-ion batteries, contain less lithium but more germanium and tin than other Li-ion batteries. StoreDot also includes anti-degradation agents into the battery chemistry to combat the biggest downside of fast battery charging: faster wear rates of batteries.

But don’t take a screwdriver to your scooter in hopes of a battery swap just yet. StoreDot’s scooter batteries won’t be ready for retail sales until 2021. In the meantime, StoreDot is working on developing fast charging batteries for a number of different products, from 5-minute cell phone charging to full-size electric cars.

The company’s next proof of concept will be for a Mercedes electric vehicle. StoreDot plans to pump 480 km (300 mi) of range into the Mercedes in just 5 minutes, just like the electric scooter battery.
 

According to the spec sheet, the EQC is equipped with a water-cooled onboard charger with a capacity of 7.4 kW and has a maximum capacity of “up to 110 kW at an appropriate charging station.“

I tested out the fast-charging capacity at a 150+ kW Ionity charging station during our trip in Norway.
I couldn’t get more than 87 kW out of the vehicle, but I still arrived at the station with about 40% state-of-charge.

Presumably, it could achieve a 110 kW charge rate if you start charging from a lower state-of-charge.

For the last 50%, it looks like it can take up to 40 minutes to obtain a full charge, but most people would charge from 10-20% to around 80%.
 
Why do Scooters have stronger demand than eBikes?
Substantially More scooters than eBikes?

Demand and price explains the market to some extent, but not entirely.

scooters litter Denver bike paths. Some are dangerous obstacles when they lie in shadows.


 
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On Board Diagnostics (OBD) has become a near automotive standard if for no other reason that independent shops can't function without it. Bicycles aren't there yet. They could be, when there is enough user demand.

From a retired EE I would like to share that an automotive OBD interface is not really the same as an ebike controller. Some ebike controllers are programmable, but they are all at their core power management systems. Automotive OBDs are not. The battery BMS systems not withstanding.
How would you intercept traffic across the communication channel? I am not an electrial engineer. I wonder how hard or easy it might be to reverse engineer? I wonder if a standard communication protocol is used that can be viewed in a debugger? Routine work for Internet development.

I am a software developer, so hardware is my weakness. Many electrical components are standardized. Specialized may make some effort to discourage tampering, but i doubt the transmissions are encrypted.

All i want is a Specialized Extender battery with a 6A or 12A charger. I really don't care who i get it from.

I am probably being very naive, because i dont think i am asking for too much. Software takes a logical view. Hardware takes a more realistic physical view.
 
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  1. Why does the fast charge fully charge in ten minutes, from 5 hours using stock charger?
  2. What is different about these cells than Specialized cells?
  3. I assume the 71W charger is the 3A * 24V ? The system is 42V, not 24.
  4. Does 71W indicate anything of particular relevance to enable fast charging?

Power

Power structure:30 x 18650mAh lithium battery units

Travel distance [1]:30 km

Charger rated power:71W

Charger rated input voltage:100-240V ~, 50 / 60Hz

Battery voltage limit:42V

Charging time:Approx. 5 hours


Smart power management:Short circuit protection, overcurrent protection, double protection from overcharging, double protection from overdischarging, temperature resistance, undervoltage auto-sleep protection

Standard power consumption [2]:1.1kWh per 100km
 
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42 Volt Coaxial Battery Charger for the Xiaomi Mi M365
Xiaomi
Item: M19-0001

$13.99
  • 42 volt, 2.0 amp battery charger
  • 8 mm (OD) coaxial female connector
  • Used to charge many rental scooter brands including Bird, Lyft, & Spin
  • The 42 volt coaxial battery charger for the Xiaomi Mi M365 electric scooter is also the right charger for Bird, Lyft, and Spin rental scooters
  • This superior quality 42 volt battery charger uses a plug-in coaxial connector with an 8 mm outside diameter and a 5 mm inside diameter and provides an output of 2.0 amps
 
Should i focus on QC4+ fast charging at 27W?


4000mAh long lasting battery
and supports 27W fast charger


Besides great performance, Mi 9T Pro also features a large 4000mAh capacity battery and

supports QC4+ fast charging at 27W.

That means you can charge 58% of the battery in just 30 minutes.
 
The insight here is the BMS might need to be bypassed with a jumper cable from the motherboard.

 
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Part of the charging rate is determined by connector and battery pack configuration.


Xiaomi didn’t offer any further details about how the new fast-charging technology works.

Although the Type-C connector already supports 100W of power draw,

the bigger challenge with delivering this much power is getting it into a small battery without overloading it. Oppo’s Super VOOC achieves this in part

by splitting its 3,400mAh battery into two separate 1,700mAh cells.
 

GRIN DOES HAVE A SATIATOR ADAPTER!

Apr 10, 2019
Add bookmark
#12
coffeemaker said:
Try putting tape over the small low voltage contacts on the Rosenberger charger cable and see if charging still works.
Great idea, @coffeemaker, thanks!

I put electrical tape over the data contacts on the Rosenberger charger cable that came with my Specialized charger. With the tape in place, the battery does not start charging. I removed the tape, tried it again and the charging process started right up.

So, I guess this means the Satiator won't work with my bike?
1554917908096.png1554917940608.png
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coffeemaker
coffeemaker
Member
Apr 10, 2019
Add bookmark
#13
Unfortunately that means there is some communication between the battery and the charger.

Unless the Satiator can emulate the authentication signals (CAN probably), it won't work, as stated in Satiator's website.

What I do to extend the battery life is to unplug the charger around 70-80% of its full capacity, unless I'm going on a long trip.

I just set a timer to remind myself to unplug it.
 
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From the labs at Grin Technologies for ebike riders around the world comes a programmable universal fast charger for all types of battery packs.



The Cycle Satiator® defines a whole new class of ‘smart charger’, one that gives you, as a user, dealer or OEM, full control to set up the optimal charging scenario for your batteries.


Download PDF Brochure




Design Features

Universal Compatibility

The Cycle Satiator is not limited to charging a specific battery type. Instead this one charger model can be configured for virtually any lithium, nickle metal hydride, or lead acid battery pack. Our standard 48V 8A model will charge packs with up to a 63V max charge voltage (15s for lithium), while the 72V 5A model will work all the way to to 103V max (24s lithium).



Informative Display

A large and bright OLED display screen shows all your realtime charging statistics; you can see the total amp-hours and voltage along with a clear graphic indicating the approximate charge in the pack.



Impressive Power Density

At almost 0.5 watts / cm3, the Cycle Satiator packs 2-3 times more power per volume than most other chargers available. This translates into big league charging currents in a portable size device.



Fan Free Efficiency

The power electronics were carefully designed to reach 95% efficiency at full load, eliminating the need for a fan to get rid of waste heat and keep things cool. no more buzzing fan noise and no risk of charger meltdowns if the fan fails.



Sealed and Watertight

A gasketted enclosure and connector design strategy keeps the charger electronics protected in the face of rain, road spray, dust storms etc.



Compact and Narrow Size

The charger is less than 5cm high and 8cm wide, allowing it to fit easily in a saddle bag, under the rear rack, inside a frame triangle, or screwed to a chassis.


Power Factor Corrected

AC input runs from 100-240v, allowing for worldwide operation without any voltage selection switch, and features a 0.99 power factor which will please your utility grid too.

Benefits

Onboard Installation

The rugged, compact, and fan-free design allows the charger to be permanently mounted on the vehicle without risk of premature failure from vibration or exposure.

Seriously Fast Charging

With a 360 watt power output, the satiator can charge your batteries in half the time of typical 4amp ‘fast’ chargers. It delivers up to 8 amps with 24 and 36v packs, and 7 amps with 48v packs.



One Charger For All

No need for a different charger for each battery type, the satiator can be programmed to work correctly with almost any packs on hand. select from one of our common preloaded profiles or make your own custom charge profiles.

Quick Select

Have anywhere from one to dozens of preconfigured charging profiles active, enabling you to readily switch between output modes with just a quick button press.


Satiate for Enhanced Cycle Life
Most lithium batteries are capable of vastly improved cycle life if they are not fully charged to saturation all the time, but at the expense of reduced range.


With the cycle satiator,

  • you can program your primary profile to give an 80% charge, and
  • have a secondary profile that does a 100% charge when you need full range.

Then have the best of both worlds, a battery that lasts thousands of cycles but still goes the distance when you need it. For more details, read here.


Future Proof

The firmware can be upgraded in the field, and along with the flexible custom profiles this means your cycle satiator is ready for whatever batteries the future has in store.



Designed in Canada

The engineering and design team behind the satiator are avid ebike users with years of experience in electric vehicle technology. This product is the charger they always wished they had, and we hope you feel the same way too.


For OEM and Businesses

In addition to electric bike enthusiasts, this charger is of great value to ebike businesses that need to manage a range of battery packs, and for oems wanting to distinguish their vehicle with a rugged and modern full featured charger.

Certifications

This device is CSA, UL, and CE listed, meaning it has passed rigorous safety and reliability tests, and can be legally resold in most jurisdictions.

Cables and Connectors
The Satiator uses the common IEC connector for the AC input, which is the familiar plug used on computers and many other devices. We have plugs available for the North American, European, UK and Australian/NZ standards, or plug adapters can be used for other countries.

Satiator AC Input Cable

The DC output is connectorized via the waterproof Singatron 2ct3002-w03400 jack. Each Satiator includes a 1m long DC ouput cable that is terminated in a

3-pin male XLR plug. This is a fairly common connector for ebike battery packs, and is used
  1. by Allcell and
  2. eZee batteries

as well as many turn-key electric bikes and scooters. Pin 1 is V+, Pin 2 is Gnd, and Pin 3 is for both temperature sensing (with NiCad/NiMH packs) and communications.

Singatron DC Output Jack Satiator XLR Pinout
There are a host of optional adapter cables from this 3-pin XLR standard to other connector types that can be included with the purchase:

XLR to Anderson and TRS Adapter Cable An XLR to Anderson adatper converts the power leads to a pair of red and black anderson powerpoles, allowing you to charge a battery via this connector which is commonly used on the pack's discharge wire.
3 Pin XLR to XT60 Satiator Adapter Cable An XLR to to XT60 adatper, commonly used with RC style battery packs. We have this available both with male and female XT60 plugs a there does not seem to be a consistent gender standard used by battery vendors.
3 Pin XLR to DC 5.5 x 2.5mm Adapter Cable An XLR to DC Jack allows the Satiator to charge most frame mounted batteries, like the common "shark" or "dolphin" packs. While the 5.5 x 2.5mm DC plug used on our adapter is rated for 7 amps, most of the DC jacks used on these batterie are of low quality and should generally not be used at more than 4 - 5 amps of current.
3 Pin XLR to Rosenberger Satiator Adapter Cable The XLR to Rosenberger lets you charge many european ebike batteries that have adopoted this magnetic battery connector popularized by the Energybus standard. Although the full specificaion calls for CANbus communication on this plug, this adapter cable only has the + and - power leads connected.
3 Pin XLR to RCA Plug Satiator Adapter Cable The RCA style plug is commonly used on older generation rear rack mounted batteries such as those sold by Golden Motors. Like the DC jack, it is not a connector style commonly associated with high currents, so care should be excersized when using this at more than 4 - 5 amps.
3 Pin to 4 Pin XLR Adapter for Juiced Bike Batteries The 3 pin to 4 pin XLR adapter cable is specfically made for the Juiced Riders ODK cargo ebikes. These batteries use a 4 pin plug, but simply double up on the pins so that there are two V+ and two Gnd pins. The new 2017 battery series from Juiced are compatible with full 8A charge currents.
Zener Protected TTL->USB for Satiator Communications The TTL->USB cable is used for connecting the Satiator to a computer's USB port for updating firmware and reading/writing new charge profiles. This is the same 3m long cable used by the Cycle Analyst, but with some additional circuitry to protect against high voltages present when it is first plugged in


Each of these adapter cables also has a TRS jack on it (commonly used for audio headphones) which allows you to connect the Satiator to a computer using the USB->TTL communications cable.
Hookup Scheme for Satiator Computer Connection

For those looking to wire their own custom adapter cable with a communication port, both signal lines of the TRS communication plug connect to the signal wire of the Satiator via a 1kOhm resistor, as described in this ES thread post.

Models
 
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512px-Energybus-e-bike-public-charger-upper-danube.jpg

EnergyBus connectors are used for charging electric bicycles and pedelecs within Europe. The connector is circular in shape and specified for charging light electric vehicles at up to 1.5 kilowatts. Electric power is provided at 12–48 volts direct current (DC) so that any battery charger can charge any rechargeable battery.

EnergyBus
Energybus-e-bike-public-charger-socket.jpg
EnergyBus female socket outlet for charging electric bicycles. A protective rubber cap protects the socket in between use.
Type
Electric vehicle charging
Designer
EnergyBus eV
Produced
2011
Length
7 millimetres (0.28 in)
Diameter
24.5 millimetres (0.96 in)
Pins
6
Connector
Rosenberger Power Data (RoPD)
Signal
Extra-low voltage DC

Max. voltage
48 V

Max. current
30
A

Data signal
CAN bus CANopen CiA-454
EnergyBus-Stecker.jpg
EnergyBus male, used for battery packs. The two main pins deliver 12‒48 volts direct current, with the four small pins used for data communications and auxiliary power.
Pin 1
CAN_H
CAN bus high
Pin 2
CAN_L
CAN bus low
Pin 3
AUX_V
Auxiliary +12 volt for sensors
Pin 4
(AUX_GND)
reserved / auxiliary ground
Pin 5
POW_V
power transfer: +12‒48 volt DC positive
Pin 6
POW_GND
power transfer: 0 volt DC negative/ground
Data transmission between the battery and charger uses a CAN bus, exchanging CANopen messages defined by the CAN in Automation CiA-454 standard.[1]

Co Organisation
Memberships
References
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...rgybus-e-bike-public-charger-upper-danube.jpg links
 
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Fast charging and quick charging require more complex chargers. Since these chargers must be designed for specific cell chemistries, it is not normally possible to charge one cell type in a charger that was designed for another cell chemistry and damage is likely to occur. Universal chargers, able to charge all cell types, must have sensing devices to identify the cell type and apply the appropriate charging profile.

  • Note 1: When Fast Charging rates are specified, they usually refer to the constant current mode. Depending on the cell chemistry this period could be between 60% and 80% of the time to full charge. These rates should not be extrapolated to estimate the time to fully charge the battery because the charging rate tails off quickly during the constant voltage period.
    Note 2: Because it is not possible to charge Lithium batteries at the charging C rate specified by the manufacturers for the full duration of the charge, it is also not possible to estimate the time to charge a battery from empty simply by dividing the AmpHour capacity of the battery by the specified charging C rate, since the rate changes during the charging process. The following equation however gives a reasonable approximation of the time to fully charge an empty battery when the standard CC/CV charging method is used:
    Charging time (hrs) = 1.3 * (Battery capacity in Ah) / (CC mode charging current)
Opportunity Charging
Opportunity charging is charging the battery whenever power is available or between partial discharges rather than waiting for the battery to be completely discharged. It is used with batteries in cycle service, and in applications when energy is available only intermittently.
It can be subject to wide variations in energy availability and wide variations in power levels. Special control electronics are needed to protect the battery from overvoltage. By avoiding complete discharge of the battery, cycle life can be increased.
 

3 Pin XLR to Rosenberger Satiator Adapter Cable The XLR to Rosenberger lets you charge many european ebike batteries that have adopoted this magnetic battery connector popularized by the Energybus standard. Although the full specificaion calls for CANbus communication on this plug, this adapter cable only has the + and - power leads connected.

Grin's programmable charger is discussed on several other theads as well and is a favorite among DIY battery builders. As you quoted in #36 above there is a handshake between the specialized battery and charger that is not implemented in Grin's charger.

I'm not finding any spec that indicates that Specizlized is using the CANbus protocol for their handshake, but it is possible as they use the same port for diagnostics. Implementing this with Grin's charger would give you an 8A charger that might work with the Specialized extender battery. However, there's no reason to believe that this battery can safely handle such high charge rates, battery life aside.

As others have mentioned the battery will incorporate a BMS (battery management system) that among other things helps prevent over and under voltage conditions that can lead to dramatic failures. The BMS itself may limit charging currents to 1C or less, ~4A in the case of the extender battery. Again, no specs but if you decide to give it a go I'd suggest setting everything up outside, just in case...😎
 
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