Easy Motion vs Bosch Second Generation Drive Systems

[Mike leroy]

I'm considering buying the Focus Aventura Speed Impulse, too. I wish it was priced more competitively, but I guess with all those premium components (carbon drive, etc), it's probably worth it. I can't stand riding an ebike with a traditional chain and derailleur (2015 IZIP E3 Dash). My chain hops off the front crank twice a week – how hard can it be to design a single-crank system where the chain doesn't hop off constantly?! Gates Carbon Drive + mid-drive is the way to go.

Bosch motor owners take note:

"... high performance use, the bicycle chain receives up to 500kg of force. Therefore, an extremely high level of surface pressure of 300kg/mm2 is to be found here within the chain links.

The smaller the chainrings are up front, the greater the amount of force is which is applied to the chain and with it, the amount of surface pressure applied to each individual chain link (e.g. all MTBs running compact drive, microdrive, and hyperdrive C). The amount of surface pressure also increases when the chain is running at an angle because the contact area is proportionately reduced. [more front/rear gear alignment difference, the larger the angle]."

Put this into perspective with a conventional mountain bike. The Santa Cruz Heckler, for example, uses Sram S1000 2x10 22/34 crankset. The Bosch has 16 teeth, or 25% fewer teeth than the 22 tooth Heckler.

What is the front/rear teeth ratio on your bike? Something like Haibike XDuro is 16 / 36 = 0.44. You might want to understand why Rohloff makes such a strong warning. I do not know or care, but it is a very serious issue to Rohloff. All I care about is Rohloff telling me I need at least 34 teeth on the front chainring. 16 teeth on the Bosch has always seemed nuts to me. My first impression was the Bosch motor is a toy. I just laughed at it. Must be for a kid, not an adult. I could care less whether the motor gets 2.5 times reduction or not. I never accepted that small front sprocket. The front sprocket still humors me. Minaturation is an electronics goal, but not necessarily a mechanical one. I never heard Bosch made bikes. Bosch über shot the mark.

The higher the chainring/sprocket ratio, the lower the input torque to the gear-unit. It is imperative therefore that the chainring/sprocket factor does not drop below 1.9 (e.g. 34/17=2.0). The smallest permissible sprocket ratios for a rider weighing less than 100kg are: 32:17, 30:16, 28:15 and 26:13.

Have dropped chains been reported with IGHs? Carbon belts are generally less durable than chains. The primary benefit is noise reduction. I am ordering a Rohloff-14 IGH.

Seems like you something similar to: http://www.rohloff.de

Have you closely examined each link in the chain? If the chain pops on a consistent basis, something predictable is causing the problem. Search Google images for twisted chains. You will see slight chain deformations in the pictures. Not rocket science.

Might want to see how seriously Germans take chains. And their tools:
http://www.rohloff.de - The tool will indicate when the individual sprockets are on the verge of needing replacement, thus preventing chain skipping.

http://www.rohloff.de
The Rohloff Caliber 2 is a precision made chain wear indicator. It allows the measure of chain wear in seconds and indicates if the chain is too worn for steel or aluminum sprockets/chainrings. After extended use, a chain will no longer fit correctly in the teeth of the sprockets, due to elongation and wear. If the chain is not replaced, then chainrings and sprockets may be damaged, and eventually, the chain will skip over the sprockets. The Caliber 2 allows you to quickly determine chain wear before your chain gets to this condition.

 

[Mike leroy]

I'm considering buying the Focus Aventura Speed Impulse, too. I wish it was priced more competitively, but I guess with all those premium components (carbon drive, etc), it's probably worth it. I can't stand riding an ebike with a traditional chain and derailleur (2015 IZIP E3 Dash). My chain hops off the front crank twice a week – how hard can it be to design a single-crank system where the chain doesn't hop off constantly?! Gates Carbon Drive + mid-drive is the way to go.

From what you describe about yourself, you might want to consider the actual engineering forces, rather than brand features. It appears to me that you underestimate. My reasoning is explained here.

 

[eDean]

Had a blast this weekend ridding in weather that did not require jackets and gloves and that does not steal range from the battery. Did around 50 miles which include a mile or so of single track. Repairs from last week were under $100, but my pristine bike did get scratched up in a couple of places in the week it was there. That kinda sucks but it too late. The LBS I used does not have nice bikes and just throws them in groups and locks them up. Given how deep one of the scratches what is apparent is how thick the paint is.

Every time I ride the FS RX I'm impress with how capable and robust the overall package is. I'm able to ride very long distances on the street with a high level of comfort due to the tires and suspension and then also ride steep single tracks that I could not do unpowered. It's just cool to have a mountain bike that can cover ground like a regular bike (due to the motor).

 

[Mike leroy]

Had a blast this weekend ridding in weather that did not require jackets and gloves and that does not steal range from the battery. Did around 50 miles which include a mile or so of single track. Repairs from last week were under $100, but my pristine bike did get scratched up in a couple of places in the week it was there. That kinda sucks but it too late. The LBS I used does not have nice bikes and just throws them in groups and locks them up. Given how deep one of the scratches what is apparent is how thick the paint is.

Every time I ride the FS RX I'm impress with how capable and robust the overall package is. I'm able to ride very long distances on the street with a high level of comfort due to the tires and suspension and then also ride steep single tracks that I could not do unpowered. It's just cool to have a mountain bike that can cover ground like a regular bike (due to the motor).

Regarding LBS, I'm screwed living in MD. Even if I bought the bike local, the shops here are just starting to work on Bosch systems, it all new to them. The shops that are certified are very hole in the wall and despite how amazed they were to get a FS RX they still scratched it up. When I bought the bike I factored in that even if I shipped the bike round trip on my dime to the RBS (remote bike shop) I would still be way ahead of the game. In fact, since 5 months of the year are basically miserable where I live I may do that over that time period and have the bike tuned up and have the sounds looked at. Shipping bikes is not a big deal, its the time mostly. Unless you live in NY or CA there are not tons of shops to take care of you in any case. The reason there is so much debate around LBS in my opinion is that the retail price of nice eBikes is so high compared to the resale and real value that it is very hard to stomach so you need to buy under retail unless you don't care about money. However, most LBS do not move much from MSRP. So, the alternative is to buy from a RBS which then puts you at risk for repairs. LBS and manufactures justify the MSRP by holding us hostage with repairs to help support LBS and strong margins. It falls apart very quickly and many would be consumers are pushed down market and get a lesser bike or get fed up and frustrated. I just have a backup bike and will use shipping if there are big issues. It is a weird feeling to love a product and hate the business practices around it. I am glad there is disruption in the space now with some shops with vision discounting, this space needs it, and it needs more retail innovation if there is really going to be traction.

I plan to buy a custom bike from HPC in LA, CA. My strategy is to buy the most reliable components. I figure I am on my own, so order the components with best reputation and warranty. I will pay a big premium, but I minimize risk. I start with a simple, flexible, rugged frame. I overbuild a bike that is easy to disassemble and reassemble with generic parts.

It takes time to vet all the parts. I feel I could breakdown in a remote spot and manage.

http://electricbikereview.com/commu...ain-suck-failure-chains-gears-and-belts.1839/

 

[stevenast]

It is a weird feeling to love a product and hate the business practices around it. I am glad there is disruption in the space now with some shops with vision discounting, this space needs it, and it needs more retail innovation if there is really going to be traction.

+100

 

[Ann M.]

The real issue is getting the LBS to embrace electric bikes @eDean. When larger shops present mixed feelings about ebikes and little general training or technical service knowledge for ebikes, then the customer experiences what you encountered. Having your bike messed up while at the repair shop is pretty appalling and I hope you let the shop owner know about it. Most manufacturers have a MAP pricing system to keep online and LBS pricing fair across the board. I don't know of many shops using MSRP prices except as a comparison point and there's usually some room for price negotiation in a face to face transaction. Somewhere in all of this discussion there is a disconnect and folks think there is this giant markup for the retailer, when there isn't--at least not with ebikes.

 

[Mike leroy]

The real issue is getting the LBS to embrace electric bikes @eDean. When larger shops present mixed feelings about ebikes and little general training or technical service knowledge for ebikes, then the customer experiences what you encountered. Having your bike messed up while at the repair shop is pretty appalling and I hope you let the shop owner know about it. Most manufacturers have a MAP pricing system to keep online and LBS pricing fair across the board. I don't know of many shops using MSRP prices except as a comparison point and there's usually some room for price negotiation in a face to face transaction. Somewhere in all of this discussion there is a disconnect and folks think there is this giant markup for the retailer, when there isn't--at least not with ebikes.

I was heavily into kitesurfing until I split the menincus in my knee in half in a sparring accident. Kitesurfing is very expensive. Very difficult to make money in the industry. The irony is the companies that transparently and aggressively brought prices as low as possible seemed to do best. At least their products were popular. The prices were not super low. It just seemed all customers were treated equally. They did not play the "pro deal" game that made a joke of MSRP. An element of price trust existed.

I do not see much of that from the EuroBikes. The prices can be so breathtakingly high that it seems like someone is literally being taken for a ride. Even though that may not be financial reality, only perception.

 

[stevenast]

Most manufacturers have a MAP pricing system to keep online and LBS pricing fair across the board.

Fair to who? If the price has to be artificially propped up, as you are illustrating, that is the opposite of fair to the consumer, isn't it?

there is a disconnect and folks think there is this giant markup for the retailer, when there isn't--at least not with ebikes

So what I'm missing: quote one above says online retailers are not allowed to advertise a discount, correct?

Quote two above says there's no real room for a discount anyway, is that right? If there's no room for a discount, then why are they prohibiting advertising one?

 

[Mike leroy]

Fair to who? If the price has to be artificially propped up, as you are illustrating, that is the opposite of fair to the consumer, isn't it?



So what I'm missing: quote one above says online retailers are not allowed to advertise a discount, correct?

Quote two above says there's no real room for a discount anyway, is that right? If there's no room for a discount, then why are they prohibiting advertising one?

By "pro deal", I mean prices were manipulated -- an apparent double standard. If you had a connection, you received a huge discount, regardless of your ability. People resented the price manipulation. Consumers repsonded most favorably to the manufacturers who presented the lowest overall cost. The prices were slightly lower. The distinction being discounts were not arbitrarily doled out to the "in-group". The "out-group" felt like they were subsidizing the in-group. When I compared prices in Germany for the same bike in the USA, I felt like an out-group member. Provides a great incentive to seek out more just alternatives.

 

[stevenast]

By "pro deal", I mean prices were manipulated -- an apparent double standard. If you had a connection, you received a huge discount, regardless of your ability. People resented the price manipulation. Consumers repsonded most favorably to the manufacturers who presented the lowest overall cost. The prices were slightly lower. The distinction being discounts were not arbitrarily doled out to the "in-group". The "out-group" felt like they were subsidizing the in-group. When I compared prices in Germany for the same bike in the USA, I felt like an out-group member. Provides a great incentive to seek out more just alternatives.

Mike, you're scaring me!! Your post is on topic related to recent posts on this thread ... and even more ... you basically make sense!!!

 

[Mike leroy]

Mike, you're scaring me!! Your post is on topic related to recent posts on this thread ... and even more ... you basically make sense!!!

We are simply very different people that happen to be converging on the same idea. Our viewpoints are not conflicting in this case.

 

[opimax]

and I have "liked " his post , makes perfect sense, unnatural forces in the market place, something will give eventually, agreed

 

[Jonah]

Thank you for this excellent comparison. You've given me a lot to think about. I want to make a few additional comments. Your comparison is using the Neo BH line. I have an Evo Jet. You can charge the battery while it is on the bike. Also, I think BH has improved the Eco mode. This is what Court reported in this matches my experience. My bike rides smoothly in this power assist mode. Thank you all for your time and consideration in this discussion.

 

[eDean]

I'm surprising myself with how many miles I'm putting on the Haibike. 95% of the time its being used as a road bike. 5% of the time its on single track. With greater time in the saddle, I can now more intuitively see a line and follow it which is necessary for anything technical. On my 20 tear old mountain bike this is a thoughtless experience, however with the extra weight and larger tires I guess there was some getting used to things.

The fact you have to be in the right gear also means you have more pedal rotations per mile than a hub drive. Why? On a hub you can be in any gear an go, so the tendency is to be in higher gears. Also, the BH is faster. Also, the gearing is not as high and the bike goes slower for a given amount of effort. So on longer rides I actually feel, how should I say this, tired of pedaling so much. Its not that the effort is too much, its just soooo many rotations. Perhaps the smaller 40 cm frame size has smaller crank arms. In any case, when I start to feel like this feeling is going to happen the solution is to crank up the assist which is something I usually don't do all that much. Pretty much solves the problem as now there are fewer cranks between point a and b because a crank result in higher speed. It also has given me the opportunity to witness the shift protect. It is very apparent at high assist levels. The bike immediately drops power during a shift and resumes right after. It's really fast.

Range has been very good. Usually 2 bars depending on temperature for a 23 mile round trip. 2.5 to three bars if I crank up the assist to PAS 3. Keep in mind I'm not going over 18 mph assisted and that the bike is a full on mountain bike. I would expect to be doing 2 mph faster in general with the same result on the Neo Jet.

Edit: 5/18/15
Finding that as I get in better shape the "tired of pedaling so much" is not as big an issue. It is more about conditioning and not running out of steam. Using higher assist on longer rides or just taking rides more in line with my fitness level seems to address the issue. When you run out of steam, you are still stuck pedaling on the Bosch at some level so you need to factor this in.

 

[eDean]

Thank you for this excellent comparison. You've given me a lot to think about. I want to make a few additional comments. Your comparison is using the Neo BH line. I have an Evo Jet. You can charge the battery while it is on the bike. Also, I think BH has improved the Eco mode. This is what Court reported in this matches my experience. My bike rides smoothly in this power assist mode. Thank you all for your time and consideration in this discussion.

Thanks. I would really like to try a 2015 Evo at some point. Nailing Eco would really round out the BH. Charging on the bike is extremely convenient. I see why Court always makes a big deal about it. Really simplifies the workflow especially if you ride daily like I aspire to do. Since I have a frame bag it has to be removed to take off the battery, so bike charging eliminates that issue as well.

 

[Jonah]

I commute to work on my Evo Jet. I am lucky enough to be able to park my bike in my office where I charge it. I do get looks and comments when I bring the bike on the elevator. I used to ride a traditional bike and carry it up to the 2nd floor. I bought the Jet for the exact reason you mentioned in your piece – I can ride to work quickly and with little perspiration occurring. I also agree with your observation that the two highest levels of power assist are not that different from each other. I may get a mile more an hour with the highest level. I have wondered about that since the second highest level is supposed to equal 200% of the rider's effort and the highest level 300 percent.

 

[stevenast]

I also agree with your observation that the two highest levels of power assist are not that different from each other. I may get a mile more an hour with the highest level. I have wondered about that since the second highest level is supposed to equal 200% of the rider's effort and the highest level 300 percent.

I think the rx 29 is similar. The biggest difference between the two highest levels of assist seems to come based on how hard and how fast you're pedaling, rather than which level it's set at.

 

[eDean]

I think the rx 29 is similar. The biggest difference between the two highest levels of assist seems to come based on how hard and how fast you're pedaling, rather than which level it's set at.

The Bosch system clearly multiplies your effort in a linear manner across all four assist levels. It's just obvious when you ride it. The BH algorithm does not and it is very obvious as well. ECO will not provide any assist once your are moving unless you pass a torque threshold for a particular speed, how can that be linear or 75%? It

When I see the BH numbers what I think is that they are making a generalization about something that is really hard to quantify given how they approach assist which is non linear, at least in PAS 1 and PAS 2. A parallel is how electric vehicles have efficiency stated in mpg. More of a guideline. It works fine and all, but its a bit confusing when they state x% assist at level 1 when really it does not work that way. When PAS 3, 4 are also almost impossible to differentiate.

 

[stevenast]

@eDean Would you say the Bosch system is "smoother" than the BH? Or maybe "more responsive" is a better description?

 

[eDean]

@eDean Would you say the Bosch system is "smoother" than the BH? Or maybe "more responsive" is a better description?

Given that Bosch assist appears to react instantly to input makes it extremely responsive. Also, since Bosch is always assisting means there is no engine on and off effect like on BH, which also makes things much smoother (at the cost of always being on even in a very low assist state). Bosch assist is so responsive and smooth, they basically have nailed it. BH assist is slower to respond and disengage and the assist abruptly cuts on and off in various scenarios.