E-BIKE SPEED RESTRICTIONS (AGREE OR DISAGREE )

[JCofMN]

Yesterday I had an assignment. It was to discharge the battery of a 1,000 Watt Ultra bike as quickly as I safely could, bringing it from 98% of charge to 63%. Technically it is not a bike but an electric motorcycle with pedals attached. It was a fun hour but not that great to ride. It is 89 pounds. My bikes are under 40. Some builds are closer to 35 pounds. And my bikes out climb the Ultra and out last it for the distance. My bikes are also legal. So, if there were an incident or accident I would not get into trouble. Thank my lucky stars I did not crash into someone. After the discharge I rode one of my bikes back to my workshop. It was much more fun. If we eliminate the rouge bikes we will not have further restrictions put on all of us.
Explanation. My friend is getting a joint replaced in Germany and is departing today. He needed to discharge it for the 3 months of storage.
Here is one of my recent builds on the left. Yes, it is electric. And here is an unlawful and clunky Ultra with a silly basket with baguette.
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Slightly off topic from the OP’s question, you claim “ my bikes out climb the Ultra and out last it for the distance.” While that could well be true for the Sondors Rockstar you’re specifically comparing your builds with, the laws of physics and some actual empirical data on e mountain bike hill climbing ability contradicts your claim. See:

for some hill climbing tests done by Australian enthusiasts comparing much better implemented bicycle designs than the Sondors you allude to. Note they say nothing about the gravity powered downhill ride quality of these bikes where the extra weight of the Bafang ultra and perhaps chassis geometry differences could play a significant role.

But then the whole point of an e mountain bike is to help get you up the hill (whether how fast you summit is important though is another issue) — as to the OP’s hope that more rules will prevent some she considers as “stupid people” from riding e bikes carelessly in public spaces and causing mayhem and maybe injury to both themselves and innocent bystanders, history is not on her side. If only were that simple to pass laws outlawing stupidity, ignorance, and prejudice. Besides as a US citizen I believe I have the right to be occasionally stupid should the occasion require it.

 

[ActionJackson]

VoltMan!
I was having a pakalolo moment the other night.
Just wanted to let you know Jeff Bezo bought property on Maui $80+ million.

His yacht with a helicopter is at Honolulu Harbour.

Maui Waui hahahaha!! Never partaked but I had a podagee GF that did. She worked at the Leonard’s malasada stand on Kam Hwy. in Pearl City. I called her três dedos because the family dog bit off her pinky as a child. She was really cute!

Bezos bought a chunk but at least it’s in American control and not the communists! I saw Elton John’s yacht parked at Aloha Tower when it was seized during his bankruptcy hehe!

 

[PedalUma]

Looks like Elton John's 28mph ebike is in San Francisco

I assembled that bike then delivered it by bike. The bike is trying way too hard to be badass so, the wine, bread, cheese and flowers in a wicker basket totally undoes that. You can tell that the bikes are attracted. Maybe the basket worked after all.
This is the one I finished today. 11-sp. Class 3.

 

[ActionJackson]

This is the one I finished today. 11-sp. Class 3.

What kind of crank motor ? Can you show some close-ups? That looks freaking awesome. Like Rome said you don’t even know!

 

[Tom@WashDC]

$300 Walmart fat bikes with BBSHD motors... An accident waiting to happen.

Now Tom.....
My $260 Walmart Fat bike (Mongoose), on which you may recall I installed a BBSHD Luna Mid Drive last January, has 2600 miles and is working just fine. The fact that the bike cost below $300, was built from the cheapest components sourced in China, and is paired with a Luna BBSHD running at abut 1400 watts, does not mean "accidents are waiting to happen". So far I have had only four major "accidents" (thank god the bike is made of steel), all of which involved only me, falling off (ejected maybe) due to excessive speed or excessive power in an off-road setting. Only one accident prompted me to voluntary go to the emergency room to check for internal bleeding and cracked ribs. I do have my speed limit set to 25mph, and rarely go faster than 20mph because as a general rule I do not ride on the road, mostly off-road, woods, and HOA common grounds. BTW, those original Walmart brakes do a great job at stopping my bike after I installed 203mm discs.

My Aventon Level road bike will go 32mph under pedal assist. I tired it once on the road. Way too fast in my opinion. Way to fast.

You know Tom, it's not the bike, I blame the BBSHD! Put that on any bike with a 52V battery and it is "an accident waiting to happen". That BBSHD is too much damn fun.

 

[Ken M]

The federal "low speed electric bicycle" (LSEB) law essentially has a power limit above 20mph that is far better than cease of assists but few take the time to read this definition and understand it. It was written by a PhD Electrical Engineer that was being told by the NHTSA that an LSEB could not go faster than 20mph MOTOR ALONE (the NHTSA had jurisdiction of ebikes as motor vehicles. It was a 7 year effort to carve out the LSEB as a consumer product / Bike that would be safety regulated under the CPSC.

There are two constraints at 20mph that make the power limit crystal clear if anyone cares to learn how a control regulates power. The assist to sustain a 170lb rider at 20mph can continue beyond 20mph because without rider effort that is the "motor alone" speed of LSEB under throttle or theoretically as a pedelec. That is about 300-350W and that assist can continue such that additional speed is the result of rider power / effort. The cool think that Dr. Currie did was writing a definition that complied with demands of the NHTSA while avoiding the cease of assists that are part of 3-class legislation (there is a chance that 3-class legislation will be preempted by the CPSC so I'll keep everyone posted .... it's bad legislation and should be preempted). The fact that wind resistance above 20mph become significant quickly the 350W + rider power will keep speeds in the traditional cummulative distribution of bikes which is 26-32mph for the majority of riders (these are speeds the vast majority of riders achieve going down hills so please spare me that it's average speed that matters when it's not relevant when talking about what top speeds should be limited to).

A power limit ensures a smooth ramp down in how much assist is sensed when riding above 20mph instead of the "hitting the wall effect" that is felt when the assist ceases at 20mph that is pushed by PFBs 3-class legislation.

 

[Air2air]

You folks that commute on the street are a thousand times braver than me. I'll wager your cause of death will not be your fault - and certainly not your speed.

You are in control of your town's bike speed limits. Our city council (parks and rec dept) works hand in hand with our MTB community. We're even on the same Facebook group. Fortunately our mayor has a Haibike.

I was very pleasantly surprised at how much our city wants to hear from us. Their problem is in *not* getting any input from the residents. If all they hear is from NIMBYs, they do what any of us would in the same position.

We used to be terrified of hippie Karen who claimed MTBs were endangering the wildlife and campaigned to have riding stopped. She and others were also famous for blocking the single track while hiking. You know the type - $300 of REI gear, Indiana Jones fedora, multipocket vest, twin walking poles - to hike in a park past the swingsets.

However the city took care of us. We turn out at council meetings and they know us to be polite and positive.

 

[PedalUma]

What kind of crank motor ? Can you show some close-ups? That looks freaking awesome. Like Rome said you don’t even know!

@VoltMan99, You have seen this motor before and you thought of converting your wife's bike, the one with the internal Alfine hub. Right at this moment I am converting a single speed coaster brake cruiser. It is an Electra. It will be getting a Nexus 7-speed coaster brake hub. I am routing all of the wires and cables internally. No visible connectors. That means soldering. Extra wire gets hidden in the secret compartment shown below. Tomorrow a spanking new British racing green Public R18 is coming in for conversion. It is also getting the small TS torque sensing motor. The wire to the display on the R18 drop bar will be white to match the existing housings. It is getting polished stem riser and polished crank arms. It will be Class 3 but will not look like an electric bike. Stealthy. No throttle.

 

[tomjasz]

Now Tom.....
My $260 Walmart Fat bike (Mongoose), on which you may recall I installed a BBSHD Luna Mid Drive last January, has 2600 miles and is working just fine. The fact that the bike cost below $300, was built from the cheapest components sourced in China, and is paired with a Luna BBSHD running at abut 1400 watts, does not mean "accidents are waiting to happen". So far I have had only four major "accidents" (thank god the bike is made of steel), all of which involved only me, falling off (ejected maybe) due to excessive speed or excessive power in an off-road setting. Only one accident prompted me to voluntary go to the emergency room to check for internal bleeding and cracked ribs. I do have my speed limit set to 25mph, and rarely go faster than 20mph because as a general rule I do not ride on the road, mostly off-road, woods, and HOA common grounds. BTW, those original Walmart brakes do a great job at stopping my bike after I installed 203mm discs.

My Aventon Level road bike will go 32mph under pedal assist. I tired it once on the road. Way too fast in my opinion. Way to fast.

You know Tom, it's not the bike, I blame the BBSHD! Put that on any bike with a 52V battery and it is "an accident waiting to happen". That BBSHD is too much damn fun.

My experiences have moved me into the negative zone with cheap fat bikes. Mine were just plain dangerous for me. I tended to ride at max PAS or wide open throttle. They did not stop in a safe distance over 12MPH. Work out done on MSF course. Having monitored kit sales for 6 years I've have seen a lot of Walfart conversions with 4 piston Magura brakes. Transforming a pigs ear into a nice purse.

 

[PedalUma]

My experiences have moved me into the negative zone with cheap fat bikes. Mine were just plain dangerous for me. I tended to ride at max PAS or wide open throttle. They did not stop in a safe distance over 12MPH. Work out done on MSF course. Having monitored kit sales for 6 years I've have seen a lot of Walfart conversions with 4 piston Magura brakes. Transforming a pigs ear into a nice purse.

I started by doing Bafang mid-drives on big box bikes. My first conversion was a $299 bike from Dick's Sporting Goods. It had a mass of wires and connectors on the HB and down tube. It was a zip tie mess and had a throttle which at the time I thought was cool. In that phase of development I put a 58-t chainring on one and raced a Harley. I guess we all need to start some place. I am just glad I survived without hurting anyone.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

My experiences have moved me into the negative zone with cheap fat bikes. Mine were just plain dangerous for me. I tended to ride at max PAS or wide open throttle. They did not stop in a safe distance over 12MPH. Work out done on MSF course. Having monitored kit sales for 6 years I've have seen a lot of Walfart conversions with 4 piston Magura brakes. Transforming a pigs ear into a nice purse.

To be fair, a lot of really nice high-end and purpose built e-bikes have seriously inadequate brakes. And when I say "seriously inadequate" I mean that in plausible and realistic riding situations the stock brakes will not be able to control the bike's speed.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

My experiences have moved me into the negative zone with cheap fat bikes. Mine were just plain dangerous for me. I tended to ride at max PAS or wide open throttle. They did not stop in a safe distance over 12MPH. Work out done on MSF course. Having monitored kit sales for 6 years I've have seen a lot of Walfart conversions with 4 piston Magura brakes. Transforming a pigs ear into a nice purse.

I agree on the "cheap" part. If I had to do it all over again I would have built my fat bike from the ground up from scratch. At the time I knew nothing about fat bikes, much less building an electric bike. I am in the process now of building a rear IGH fat bike from scratch, starting with an aluminum rear suspension frame and top notch components.

 

[tomjasz]

IGH fat bike from scratch,

A worthy adventure. I had a BBSHD on a bikesdirect fatty. Road it a bit and found the brakes to be scary and the geometry to be very uncomfortable. Sold all 3 of my BBSHD kits.
My scratch build is a MAC 10T on a hybrid step through frame. And because there are no hills for me to navigate it’s a single speed.
What a great learning experience.
But a couple TIA’s and severely arthritic hands made me decide I’m done. All special bike tools will soon hit eBay.
Thousands of miles on my 2 2014 BBS01(A) motors. They’ll propel my fat arse at an easy 20mph.

 

[goducks21]

I would rather see speed restrictions vs class restrictions or total bans. I see it like autos. You can own a Corvette or a Yugo but you can only go the posted speed limit. Rather than denying ebikes access for presumed reasons why not regulate all bikes so everyone is on the same playing field.
The guy in the corvette may hit 150 mph but more than likely it'll be out on some deserted stretch of road. Same can be true for ebikes and regular bikes. Post some limits that all bike riders can follow so everyone gets a chance to ride everywhere. Banning or restricting ebikes because of reasons that may or may not occur isn't fair. Ebike riders should be innocent until proven guilty.
Once again a minority of people ruin it for the majority.

 

[Air2air]

Thank you Alicia for a terrific topic.

This is a roadie/commuter conversation and I salute you folks with the bravery for it. It would seriously be safer to just walk down the train tracks; at least you know what direction it's coming from and what to look for. Risk/reward doesn't add up for me because effort, preparation and skill will not save you.

Every 10 minute ride to the MTB park I have to trust that every single driver behind me has their head pulled out, or else I'll end up dead or paralyzed. That's quite a wager and a lot of misplaced trust. Speed limits have nothing to do with it and will save none of us.

As we know MTB fatality rates are close to zero, yet minor injuries are vastly higher. Speed limits are not the reason; it's the number of cars around you vs. trees.

Here's the best safety solution - I'm sure many of you have these as well:

 

[ActionJackson]

@VoltMan99, You have seen this motor before and you thought of converting your wife's bike, the one with the internal Alfine hub. Right at this moment I am converting a single speed coaster brake cruiser. It is an Electra. It will be getting a Nexus 7-speed coaster brake hub. I am routing all of the wires and cables internally. No visible connectors. That means soldering. Extra wire gets hidden in the secret compartment shown below. Tomorrow a spanking new British racing green Public R18 is coming in for conversion. It is also getting the small TS torque sensing motor. The wire to the display on the R18 drop bar will be white to match the existing housings. It is getting polished stem riser and polished crank arms. It will be Class 3 but will not look like an electric bike. Stealthy. No throttle.
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Man that’s awesome! Can’t wait to do the wife’s bike next year! The internal wiring really makes a huge difference in maintaining the classic aesthetic- paint that bad boy aluminum silver and it’ll be spot on with my wife’s bike. Do regular crank arms fit ? I’d want to figure out a way to attach this if possible:

 

[Tom@WashDC]

A worthy adventure. I had a BBSHD on a bikesdirect fatty. Road it a bit and found the brakes to be scary and the geometry to be very uncomfortable. Sold all 3 of my BBSHD kits.
My scratch build is a MAC 10T on a hybrid step through frame. And because there are no hills for me to navigate it’s a single speed.
What a great learning experience.
But a couple TIA’s and severely arthritic hands made me decide I’m done. All special bike tools will soon hit eBay.
Thousands of miles on my 2 2014 BBS01(A) motors. They’ll propel my fat arise at an easy 20mph.

Ahh man, sorry abut the arthritis. The MAC 10T. Nice. I wanted to use that on my Fatty but the drop out does not work. I'm going to use the Bafang G062 1000W Rear Hub coupled with the Baserunner Controller and Cycle Analyst from Grin.

 

[tomjasz]

Baserunner Controller and Cycle Analyst from Grin.

My choices too.

 

[AHicks]

Ahh man, sorry abut the arthritis. The MAC 10T. Nice. I wanted to use that on my Fatty but the drop out does not work. I'm going to use the Bafang G062 1000W Rear Hub coupled with the Baserunner Controller and Cycle Analyst from Grin.

Even though I really like the MAC 12t Ive been running for several years now, I like the Bafang plan as an option for the fatty/wide dropouts.

In fact, I was all set, ready to go with a GMAC system until I looked into the CA-3 display. You're familiar with the size of that CA display? It put me off completely.

I've been using a 35a KT controller successfully on the MAC 12t. Clearly not as flexible as the CA3, but it is very capable of doing anything I've asked of it. The PAS system is pretty hard to beat with it's power based assist levels (not speed based like most others), while using a CURRENT display designs, in color or LCD flavors. That's me though.... -Al

 

[Tom@WashDC]

Even though I really like the MAC 12t Ive been running for several years now, I like the Bafang plan as an option for the fatty/wide dropouts.

In fact, I was all set, ready to go with a GMAC system until I looked into the CA-3 display. You're familiar with the size of that CA display? It put me off completely.

I've been using a 35a KT controller successfully on the MAC 12t. Clearly not as flexible as the CA3, but it is very capable of doing anything I've asked of it. The PAS system is pretty hard to beat with it's power based assist levels (not speed based like most others), while using a CURRENT display designs, in color or LCD flavors. That's me though.... -Al

Yes, I like that 35a KT Controller and display link you sent me. I'm going to use that on my Aventon Level. I'm going with the Cycle Analyst and the Baserunner Controller, along with Torque sensing PAS. I want the CA display because I want to tinker with various settings, particularly the torque sensing and thermal rollback on the motor and controller. It will be a good learning experience.