E-Bike Price Distribution (just for fun)

[LewSchiller]

Just because it isn't the right bike for you doesn't necessarily make it a bad bike.

One interesting thing about the design of the Interceptor/City Commuter/Comfort Cruiser/&C Pedego bikes is that the rear "rack" encasing the battery is made of the nearly the same tubes that the chain stays and seat stays are made of, and is welded to the frame rather than attached with bolts. This adds a great deal of structural rigidity and strength to the whole bike, and combined with the preference for an upright riding position with their bikes makes their odd weight distribution a fairly reasonable (or more precisely less unreasonable) choice.

Most Pedego customers seem pretty happy with their purchase, and most Pedego dealers seem to be doing pretty well selling them. Many here may gnash their teeth in frustration and not understand how this is even possible. If its stupid and it works it isn't stupid.

No gnashing - no frustration here. There's a whole spectrum from Alibaba Specials to..well..the Pedego Dealer Experience for which, obviously, a lot of people are willing to pay. God Bless 'Em.

 

[Feliz]

I don't have unlimited funds and while I do have five bikes the Pedego is the most expensive. I leave bikes at various places, kids, cabin, rail trail, home.
I bought an Elby with a BionX direct drive when BionX were having financial issues and the bikes were going at a good discount. I bought a Juiced CCS when the Canadian dealer had a good sale going....this is a good bike at a value price, the dealer advertised the sale on this forum. I think Pedego bikes can be discounted but it's not advertised I got a good discount on my 2018 Haibike which is a delightful bike. I did pay full price for a eProdigy Magic Pro, I want to try their Coaxial Bottom Bracket motor, from the activity on the eProdigy thread I don't know how long they'll be available.

 

[Alaskan]

Yes of course. "Force" has nothing to do with it.
I'm looking at the price spread Mike put together and wondering what makes one eBike worth 2 or 3 times another. They all use variations of the same three drives...Front rear and center. There's direct drive and gear drive. For the sake of conversation we can say 36 or 48 volt systems. Looking at a Pedigo for example, it's a nice bike but what makes it worth $4,000?

It's clear you are asking a question you have already answered for yourself. This is inherently an invitation to argument not an invitation to information sharing. You see little difference so stick with lower end bikes. Others appreciate the differences and are willing to pay for them. Each to their own. I'm not asking you to justify your choices. I'm not interested in defending mine.

 

[DDBB]

It's easy to pick on Pedego, since that's been well covered, shall we discuss Stromer?

 

[LewSchiller]

It's clear you are asking a question you have already answered for yourself. This is inherently an invitation to argument not an invitation to information sharing. You see little difference so stick with lower end bikes. Others appreciate the differences and are willing to pay for them. Each to their own. I'm not asking you to justify your choices. I'm not interested in defending mine.

My question was - "How much better is a $4000 bike than a $2000 bike?
You said "Others appreciate the differences and are willing to pay for them."
What, aside from Dealer Experience are those differences?

 

[DDBB]

Well, the other guys don't have "hello fun!' as their advertising slogan for one

 

[LewSchiller]

Well, the other guys don't have "hello fun!' as their advertising slogan for one

Well that's true
Look - let's let this go. I didn't start this as dissing anybody's choices.
I thought it was just a simple honest question that came to me looking at Mike's list.
That's a huge spread for items that at least on the surface aren't that dissimliar.
Sure if you're buying a full suspension Mountain Bike it will cost more. But commuter bikes aren't that tricked out.
Anyway...Sorry

 

[TForan]

Just because it isn't the right bike for you doesn't necessarily make it a bad bike.

One interesting thing about the design of the Interceptor/City Commuter/Comfort Cruiser/&C Pedego bikes is that the rear "rack" encasing the battery is made of the nearly the same tubes that the chain stays and seat stays are made of, and is welded to the frame rather than attached with bolts. This adds a great deal of structural rigidity and strength to the whole bike, and combined with the preference for an upright riding position with their bikes makes their odd weight distribution a fairly reasonable (or more precisely less unreasonable) choice.

Most Pedego customers seem pretty happy with their purchase, and most Pedego dealers seem to be doing pretty well selling them. Many here may gnash their teeth in frustration and not understand how this is even possible. If its stupid and it works it isn't stupid.

Sorry, to imply that there's anything wrong with Pedego , just not my cup of tea.

 

[Figs]

I appreciate the list but together by Mike. Great to see the wide range of prices as rhat allows people of various economic and interest levels to experience an eBike. You can get extremely low spec components, or the high end, just like a regular bike. It’s the same as comparing a $150 Walmart mountain bike to a $6000 one. I have zero complaints with my $1700 eBike, 2400 miles and no issues and a joy to ride. But, I know there will come a time when I will think about “upgrading”. I would probably get something in the $2500-$3500 range when I do.

Will the “upgrade” be a higher quality? I hope so. Will it be more fun to ride? I doubt it. My old $600 Trec fit my needs just as well as my $2500 Orbea back in the day. It comes down to what you actually need, and can afford. There are really no differences between ebikes and other consumer products. A wide range of prices and options. We each choose what works for us, and respect and appreciate what works for others.

 

[Alaskan]

I appreciate the list but together by Mike. Great to see the wide range of prices as rhat allows people of various economic and interest levels to experience an eBike. You can get extremely low spec components, or the high end, just like a regular bike. It’s the same as comparing a $150 Walmart mountain bike to a $6000 one. I have zero complaints with my $1700 eBike, 2400 miles and no issues and a joy to ride. But, I know there will come a time when I will think about “upgrading”. I would probably get something in the $2500-$3500 range when I do.

Will the “upgrade” be a higher quality? I hope so. Will it be more fun to ride? I doubt it. My old $600 Trec fit my needs just as well as my $2500 Orbea back in the day. It comes down to what you actually need, and can afford. There are really no differences between ebikes and other consumer products. A wide range of prices and options. We each choose what works for us, and respect and appreciate what works for others.

Very well said. I takes all kinds to make a world.

 

[AlanDB]

Since Mike's list was put together from EBR reviews, I assume the prices are list prices or MSRP. it would be interesting to know average street price paid compared to the MSRP on various models. I know on my Gazelle Arroyo, I bought the 2017 model in 2018, and got it for $1300 less than the MSRP. When my wife bought her Blix Aveny, she paid the full MSRP. These bikes were both purchased from the same shop.

 

[AZOldTech]

I rented quite a few Rad Power Bikes and Pedego Bikes before purchasing one in 2017. I felt overall that the Pedegos all felt beefier and much more solid than the Rads. I also talked to the people doing the renting and the sense I got was that the Pedegos took much more abuse and kept going. As an example, most Pedego e-bikes have a max passenger weight of 250lbs, but the rental companies would routinely have riders much heavier than that with no apparent damage to the bikes.

If you look at some of Court's reviews of the Pedego bikes that over-builtness comes through in the reviews, in fact I think he uses that exact word.

Having said all that, I rather like Rad Power Bikes and would have bought one except that they didn't have a 15ah battery last year.

What I find funny in a way, till this very moment I thought Rad Power bikes were overbuilt compared to other similar ebikes. Mind you I do not own a Rad or Pedego bike so that is a perception not fact. I mean if you compare the direct ebike companies on similar ebikes, even similar equipment sometimes, the Rad Power bikes always seem to weight more. So all that weight must come from somewhere. And that comes forward on the reviews as well (versus the other direct ebike companies).

 

[Mr. Coffee]

What I find funny in a way, till this very moment I thought Rad Power bikes were overbuilt compared to other similar ebikes. Mind you I do not own a Rad or Pedego bike so that is a perception not fact. I mean if you compare the direct ebike companies on similar ebikes, even similar equipment sometimes, the Rad Power bikes always seem to weight more. So all that weight must come from somewhere. And that comes forward on the reviews as well (versus the other direct ebike companies).

One of the things that happens as you go up the price scale on bikes is that the weight goes down. It would be interesting to plot the pricing data as price per kg. Or a scatter plot with price on one axis and price per kg on the other.

I know my R&M costs twice as much as my Pedego Interceptor but weighs about ten pounds less and feels more stable and solid in the bargain. Given that it is a $7500+ bike that's reasonable to expect.

In my comparison rides with Pedegos and Rad Bikes I found that a step-through Pedego Interceptor felt more solid than a non step-through Rad City. Note that "solidity" is different than stability, and generally I find that all e-bikes with batteries mounted in the rear racks are less stable than bikes with batteries mounted in the triangle. Probably the best test I could imagine is imagine that you ride off a high curb at 12-15 mph. With the Rad (and the Sondors I tried) it felt like parts flew off the bike when I did this (actually I never found any parts missing) while the Pedegos (or the R&M) just kind of ate it up.

I find it interesting that there are so many threads on this forum questioning the value proposition of Pedego e-bikes but so very few questioning the value of R&M bikes, which really start around $6000.

 

[Alaskan]

I find it interesting that there are so many threads on this forum questioning the value proposition of Pedego e-bikes but so very few questioning the value of R&M bikes, which really start around $6000.

Just waiting for that shoe to drop. We're probably next on the reverse snobbery list. My feeling is that you either get the value proposition or you don't. There is no convincing people on either side of the discussion.

I am a firm believer in John Ruskin's warning:

“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little.

When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all.

When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. (Actually it does happen but not very often.)

f you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Nice..thanks!
How much better is a $4000 bike than a $2000 bike?
The LeBS I bought my < $2000 bike from also sells Pedigo. (That have them in a separate room as Pedigo required. (I'm surprised Pedigo didn't require a waiver to enter the room.) I looked at them. Didn't see anything that justified the significant price difference.
They had 2 of those eBikes made to look like 20's Board Track Racing motorcycles on the floor. List price $6000. They were offering them at $3,000. Riding position was ...silly...in my opinion.
Anyway, When you buy a $40,000 car instead of a $20,000 car you get identifiable benefits. You and I might disagree about the value of those but there they are . When you buy a $4000 eBike instead of a $2000 eBike....what more do you really get?

You pose a very good question, but on a generalized basis a very tough one to answer.

My observation as a dealer, is that since we are in the still very early stages of a relatively new market, you have eBike OEM's trying to figure out what combination of features and price points are going to sell well, and even further what supply distribution business model will work to be the most profitable.

If you get a particular model of Brand X priced around $4000, and compare it to Brand Y, where both ebikes have the same motor wattage, battery capacity, and same position of motor (i.e. rear or mid mount), I think the differences you will find are GENERALLY speaking (i.e. not always) in the following areas:

+ Brand X at $4000 will likely have better battery mount integration (meaning more concealed or more tightly integrated on the bike), than Brand Y at $2000.
+ Brand X should have a higher end derailleur (if it has a derailler and cog set and not a NuVinci style hub) than Brand Y
+ Brand X will most likely have higher end hydraulic disc brakes than Brand Y
+ Brand X MIGHT have a more sophisticated, and better integrated display, offering more display functionality than Brand Y
+ Brand X MIGHT have better quality tires, and rims than Brand Y
+ Brand X MIGHT have better quality seat though it may not even be a more 'comfortable or plush' seat than Brand Y
+ Both could very well have top end speed of 28 mph, depending on their brand
+ Both could very well have similar motor output in terms of watts, though it is possible than Brand Y could have better quality motor internals, or higher torque rating
+ You would be very unlikely to find a mid mount motor on an ebike at the Brand X price, though that doesn't include highyl discounted brands that are close outs, or that a dealer simply can't move for whatever reason at the MSRP.
+ Wiring connections, wiring placement/integration, and controller quality SHOULD be better on Brand X, but the price at $4000 does not guarantee that.
+ Frames likely are relatively strong, but the $4000 ebike usually can be built to be much lighter with the same strength, with better welds and appropriately designed geometry and frame material.
+ Shocks or suspension in general should be higher end, and a noticeable difference in how they perform, and can be user adjusted on Brand X.
+ Brand X and Brand Y will very likely both be very suitable to ride in most on road conditions, and either could be sold at that price for off road conditions, though its likely the difference is more noticeable between brand X and Brand Y at those price points for the off-road designed model than may be noticeable for strictly road riding models.
+ I would hope the motor smoothness, and overall drive train operation is better and perhaps even less noisy on Brand X vs Brand Y. (again not a guarantee)
+ Brand X may (but not always) have more accessories included and better quality ones than Brand Y, such as fenders, rear racks, mirrors, better coverage chain guards, lights front and rear, and possibly better integrated.
+ Brand X may have a longer warranty, and I'm thinking of a large number of brand Y's that typically have only a 1 or 2 year, and just a handful of Brand X's, that have 3 year or even 4 Year warranties.
+ I would hope that Brand X has better quality battery cells, longer battery cycle life, and a better quality BMS, and charger. Sometimes the higher end brands do not disclose the quality of their cells, let alone the Brand. This is the most challenging of all ebike attributes to qualify or compare. Ask lots of questions until you are satisfied. The battery is the single most important component on an ebike.
+ Motors on the otherhand, are very mature, built in the millions for many applications, and fairly readily replaced. Mid drives not as many built as hub drives, but generally in the past 5 years, they have greatly improved their reliability.

Lastly, there are a handful of brands who spend a lot on marketing, and tend to sell their ebikes at more premium prices. The marketing can cost a lot, but generally I don't think that cost is necessarily a big contributor to their price. I think their margins would tend to be better for the OEM, which could allow them to do more (i.e. invest in offering more models, expand faster, provide better support, etc.). As proven in many different industries, over and over, there are buyers who are willing to pay more for a better marketed brand, or one that is positioning themselves as being 'premium', when their product may not be all that 'premium' in terms of actual content. A lot of it is very subjective. Especially in food or beverage. (i.e. is a $5 coffee cup of Sbux 'better' than a $1 Cup of McD's .)

Anyway, that was not the intent of the post to trigger this sort of discussion on a $2000 or $4000 ebike. I've been following this industry since the late 90's, just having a very keen interest in power propulsion technology (batteries, fuel cells, microturbines), and my love of the overall simplicity and beauty of bicycles. A few years ago (2014), I could really see the inflection for ebikes here in the US, and felt it was finally time to put some of my money into it, and more of my life's work into something tangible that I just really really enjoy.

The e-bike 'smile' is a very nice confirmation of my continued enthusiasm, after every test ride I see people take for the first time, and certainly after they actually buy. The surprise of the ride for first timers, is often even better. It's like seeing the kid who first figures out how to ride a bike. The sense of wonderment, and joy, and maybe even some pride in 'accomplishment.'

Pretty cool too, that we have a forum like this to share the fun and experiences ! (I'm very thankful - when I was a kid back in the 70's never would have imagined this.)

 

[Alaskan]

@Deleted Member 4210 Great post and thanks for going into to so much detail. That is a very long, comprehensive and honest answer to a very short question.

I ride a R&M Homage Rohloff HS and get that grin every time I ride. I actually wake up every day, look out the window, check the hourly weather forecast hoping I can ride instead of drive. I haven't gotten rid of the car yet but I am sorely tempted to do so as it mostly just sits there gathering dust. Having a top quality bike is worth every penny, peso, farthing , shekel or ruble to me.

 

[DDBB]

That e-bike "smile" is the best part of this industry.. I love letting people test ride our bikes just to see that smile.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Just waiting for that shoe to drop. We're probably next on the reverse snobbery list. My feeling is that you either get the value proposition or you don't. There is no convincing people on either side of the discussion.
...

Although in some ways it is easier to articulate why you'd ride an R&M.

For me I don't know of any other e-bike available in the states (there are a few more available in Europe) suitable for long-distance unsupported day-in day-out touring over varied terrain. The combination of the Rohloff speedhub and the Bosch dual-battery system is hard to beat.

My other challenge would be to ask someone to bring another e-bike to my house and have it make four or five trips up and down my driveway.

 

[steve mercier]

If you want an eye opener goto Alibaba and check out electric bikes ..a billion Chinese bike riders cant be wrong. Some of the crazy stuff they build . For example there is one type of Hub motor built into a Mag wheel that interests me. The Chinese bike that I have is not a good handling bike but has mucho torque. It keeps breaking spokes but it climbs the steep hills really fast. A little voice in me wants a 1000 watt hub motor mag wheeled rocket that I can treat like trash.

 

[LewSchiller]

You pose a very good question, but on a generalized basis a very tough one to answer.

My observation as a dealer, is that since we are in the still very early stages of a relatively new market, you have eBike OEM's trying to figure out what combination of features and price points are going to sell well, and even further what supply distribution business model will work to be the most profitable.

If you get a particular model of Brand X priced around $4000, and compare it to Brand Y, where both ebikes have the same motor wattage, battery capacity, and same position of motor (i.e. rear or mid mount), I think the differences you will find are GENERALLY speaking (i.e. not always) in the following areas:

+ Brand X at $4000 will likely have better battery mount integration (meaning more concealed or more tightly integrated on the bike), than Brand Y at $2000.
+ Brand X should have a higher end derailleur (if it has a derailler and cog set and not a NuVinci style hub) than Brand Y
+ Brand X will most likely have higher end hydraulic disc brakes than Brand Y
+ Brand X MIGHT have a more sophisticated, and better integrated display, offering more display functionality than Brand Y
+ Brand X MIGHT have better quality tires, and rims than Brand Y
+ Brand X MIGHT have better quality seat though it may not even be a more 'comfortable or plush' seat than Brand Y
+ Both could very well have top end speed of 28 mph, depending on their brand
+ Both could very well have similar motor output in terms of watts, though it is possible than Brand Y could have better quality motor internals, or higher torque rating
+ You would be very unlikely to find a mid mount motor on an ebike at the Brand X price, though that doesn't include highyl discounted brands that are close outs, or that a dealer simply can't move for whatever reason at the MSRP.
+ Wiring connections, wiring placement/integration, and controller quality SHOULD be better on Brand X, but the price at $4000 does not guarantee that.
+ Frames likely are relatively strong, but the $4000 ebike usually can be built to be much lighter with the same strength, with better welds and appropriately designed geometry and frame material.
+ Shocks or suspension in general should be higher end, and a noticeable difference in how they perform, and can be user adjusted on Brand X.
+ Brand X and Brand Y will very likely both be very suitable to ride in most on road conditions, and either could be sold at that price for off road conditions, though its likely the difference is more noticeable between brand X and Brand Y at those price points for the off-road designed model than may be noticeable for strictly road riding models.
+ I would hope the motor smoothness, and overall drive train operation is better and perhaps even less noisy on Brand X vs Brand Y. (again not a guarantee)
+ Brand X may (but not always) have more accessories included and better quality ones than Brand Y, such as fenders, rear racks, mirrors, better coverage chain guards, lights front and rear, and possibly better integrated.
+ Brand X may have a longer warranty, and I'm thinking of a large number of brand Y's that typically have only a 1 or 2 year, and just a handful of Brand X's, that have 3 year or even 4 Year warranties.
+ I would hope that Brand X has better quality battery cells, longer battery cycle life, and a better quality BMS, and charger. Sometimes the higher end brands do not disclose the quality of their cells, let alone the Brand. This is the most challenging of all ebike attributes to qualify or compare. Ask lots of questions until you are satisfied. The battery is the single most important component on an ebike.
+ Motors on the otherhand, are very mature, built in the millions for many applications, and fairly readily replaced. Mid drives not as many built as hub drives, but generally in the past 5 years, they have greatly improved their reliability.

Lastly, there are a handful of brands who spend a lot on marketing, and tend to sell their ebikes at more premium prices. The marketing can cost a lot, but generally I don't think that cost is necessarily a big contributor to their price. I think their margins would tend to be better for the OEM, which could allow them to do more (i.e. invest in offering more models, expand faster, provide better support, etc.). As proven in many different industries, over and over, there are buyers who are willing to pay more for a better marketed brand, or one that is positioning themselves as being 'premium', when their product may not be all that 'premium' in terms of actual content. A lot of it is very subjective. Especially in food or beverage. (i.e. is a $5 coffee cup of Sbux 'better' than a $1 Cup of McD's .)

Anyway, that was not the intent of the post to trigger this sort of discussion on a $2000 or $4000 ebike. I've been following this industry since the late 90's, just having a very keen interest in power propulsion technology (batteries, fuel cells, microturbines), and my love of the overall simplicity and beauty of bicycles. A few years ago (2014), I could really see the inflection for ebikes here in the US, and felt it was finally time to put some of my money into it, and more of my life's work into something tangible that I just really really enjoy.

The e-bike 'smile' is a very nice confirmation of my continued enthusiasm, after every test ride I see people take for the first time, and certainly after they actually buy. The surprise of the ride for first timers, is often even better. It's like seeing the kid who first figures out how to ride a bike. The sense of wonderment, and joy, and maybe even some pride in 'accomplishment.'

Pretty cool too, that we have a forum like this to share the fun and experiences ! (I'm very thankful - when I was a kid back in the 70's never would have imagined this.)

Thanks Mike...this is what I was hoping to get
And yes - the smile...I still have mine!