Dutch Police not messing about.

I suspect this will be just like any other new police initiative. They'll go strong at it for a few months, then just let it go. Meanwhile the money spent on the equipment will languish in a garage somewhere until it's forgotten about. In a few years, they'll find it in the back corner, with someone's laundry hanging on it.

Happens in the US all the time, cops get a new program, and there's a flurry of activity for a few months then nothing. PSP's MCE was out in force a few years ago stopping Amish van drivers to check for proper licenses. It went on for about 9 months, now nothing. That activity was prompted by a crash that injured some Amish, and suddenly the legislature found out that people are driving people around without the PUC license. They cracked down under the guise of "doing something" then it has languished ever since. There are now more unlicensed van drivers than ever, and they won't do anything until there's another crash with injuries, and find the driver wasn't licensed by the PUC..

Meanwhile the crackdown was all about "safety" and the MCE's idea of safety was to leave women and children along side the road while they either towed the van or made it leave because they couldn't continue with passengers.

I know, I'm cynical.
 
JedidiahStolzfus said:
I suspect this will be just like any other new police initiative. They'll go strong at it for a few months, then just let it go. Meanwhile the money spent on the equipment will languish in a garage somewhere until it's forgotten about. In a few years, they'll find it in the back corner, with someone's laundry hanging on it.

Happens in the US all the time, cops get a new program, and there's a flurry of activity for a few months then nothing. PSP's MCE was out in force a few years ago stopping Amish van drivers to check for proper licenses. It went on for about 9 months, now nothing. That activity was prompted by a crash that injured some Amish, and suddenly the legislature found out that people are driving people around without the PUC license. They cracked down under the guise of "doing something" then it has languished ever since. There are now more unlicensed van drivers than ever, and they won't do anything until there's another crash with injuries, and find the driver wasn't licensed by the PUC..

Meanwhile the crackdown was all about "safety" and the MCE's idea of safety was to leave women and children along side the road while they either towed the van or made it leave because they couldn't continue with passengers.

I know, I'm cynical.
Click to expand...
well the US is like that most of the world is not.
 
JedidiahStolzfus said:
I suspect this will be just like any other new police initiative. They'll go strong at it for a few months, then just let it go. Meanwhile the money spent on the equipment will languish in a garage somewhere until it's forgotten about. In a few years, they'll find it in the back corner, with someone's laundry hanging on it.

Happens in the US all the time, cops get a new program, and there's a flurry of activity for a few months then nothing. PSP's MCE was out in force a few years ago stopping Amish van drivers to check for proper licenses. It went on for about 9 months, now nothing. That activity was prompted by a crash that injured some Amish, and suddenly the legislature found out that people are driving people around without the PUC license. They cracked down under the guise of "doing something" then it has languished ever since. There are now more unlicensed van drivers than ever, and they won't do anything until there's another crash with injuries, and find the driver wasn't licensed by the PUC..

Meanwhile the crackdown was all about "safety" and the MCE's idea of safety was to leave women and children along side the road while they either towed the van or made it leave because they couldn't continue with passengers.

I know, I'm cynical.
Click to expand...
I think it's a mistake to look at what happens in the US, and assume the rest of the world is the same. Amsterdam, and the Netherlands in general, have a much, much larger percentage of their populations commuting and accomplishing the daily chores of living by bicycle. The walking culture is also very different from the US, because many people walk to work, school, to do errands, etc , because their cities have been purposely designed for them too be able to do so. When you have large numbers of people walking and cycling in close proximity, you can't have people speeding around on illegal bikes - it's dangerous. And, the rise in accidents and fatalities was specifically cited in the article. I'm pretty sure this new enforcement will continue, because Netherlanders have a different view of public safety than we do.
 
It would also be a mistake to think US police haven't already started looking for ways to detect illegal ebikes.

This is an interesting article, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10372360/. They state ebike accidents are on the rise / mopeds are not, yet figure 2 almost looks like there has been a switch in categorisation of electric over powered ebikes to mopeds between 2016 and 2020 ? Call me a cynic , but when emergency department doctors have been told to change how injuries are reported there is usually an agenda developing. Australia saw it with helmet regulation in the 1980's , then speed enforcement, drink driving, drug driving, and we're starting to see it with age related driving incidents.

Is this bad? Canada has about 60 armed robberies a year. But 74 cyclist deaths.

fakenewsyoutwitt recently reported that 87% of CaRadians believe emoped riders should be deported across the border where they belong
 
I think we Americans also have a tough time comprehending the safety culture around cycling and pedestrianism in the Netherlands (and for that matter much of Europe) and the level of public outrage when a motor vehicle operator injures or kills cyclists or pedestrians. And the public outrage is even higher if the victims are children.

There is also a long list of stuff American drivers routinely do that can cost you your driver's license most places in Europe.
 
On the one hand, its really hard to imagine something like this in the US. I mean, police generally can't be arsed to enforce traffic laws on cars, which actually kill a staggering amount of people every year. But conversely, its pretty easy to imagine some politician deciding this is an issue they can ride to fame and reelection (it may be hard to believe but idiots riding 40mph on paths and sidewalks actually pisses off a lot of people).

FWIW, I've been told my local parks department doesn't test anything when they catch a problem, they just google the bike. All the "wink-wink-nudge-nudge 40mph off road only mode!" is generally splashed all over their website.
 
My experience is that no user group — drivers, pedestrians, cyclists, scooter/uniwheel riders — holds the moral high ground when it comes to sharing transportation infrastructure.

This applies wherever humans share routes — though certainly more in some places than others. Folks who have no respect for others and think rules don't apply to them have always been with us. Granted, more than usual in the US at the moment, but we have no monopoly on that trend.

No shortage of distracted/thoughtless/entitled/arrogant/wreckless/illegally equipped cyclists. Given the large number of cyclists per capita and per mile in the Netherlands, no surprise that public safety officials there feel a need to step up enforcement.
 
When I hit the link for the bike testing contraption, at first, I thought, "Hey, this could be cool, if it measures the real-world speed bikes are capable of with electric assistance. It doesn't regulate the kind of technology you can use to limit speed, it regulates what the bike can do on the road."

But unfortunately, I don't think it does. I don't know if y'all got as far as reading this part:

<< To test a bike, the police mount it to the rollers, with the front wheel strapped in and the frame strapped down. An officer then cycles on the bike until the assistance stops. The legal limit for e-bikes (including fat bikes) is 25kph, and for speed pedelecs it's 45kph >>

There's just one problem: I bet the rollers don't have any resistance. One of my bikes would go over 30 MPH on that device, though I don't think I'll ever get it over 25 or 26 MPH. I certainly haven't so far, though I've tried. Maybe there are athletes who could get it up to 28. And it has no limiter.

If we have to have enforcement, I think someone has to ride the bike on level ground and see what it's actually capable of. Inconvenient and frustrating, but hey, I can think of worse jobs! As an LEO, I would feel a lot less ridiculous trying to get a bike to exceed the speed limit with a radar gun than riding that riding on a treadmill by the side of the road.

Dear God. I hope the Dutch cops don't have to wear shorts in neon colors or funny hats or something.
 
Catalyzt said:
Dear God. I hope the Dutch cops don't have to wear shorts in neon colors or funny hats or something.
Click to expand...
When it comes to footwear, I think that they have to stick with traditional values.

Clogs.jpe
 
I don't think that's a problem, the bike should cut off assistance at the set speed limit.
I guess its relatively easy to detect when the motor cuts out on most cheap overpowered bikes, unless it uses a current detector to be sure.

There had to be a rule, there has to be a line in the sand no matter how ludicrous it may seem in specific scenarios.

When I'm walking my grandson in a busy street, idiots popping wheelies at 25mph on chipped ebikes would receive the retribution of belzebub himself from me, regardless of the big picture
 
JedidiahStolzfus said:
I suspect this will be just like any other new police initiative. They'll go strong at it for a few months, then just let it go. Meanwhile the money spent on the equipment will languish in a garage somewhere until it's forgotten about. In a few years, they'll find it in the back corner, with someone's laundry hanging on it.

Happens in the US all the time, cops get a new program, and there's a flurry of activity for a few months then nothing. PSP's MCE was out in force a few years ago stopping Amish van drivers to check for proper licenses. It went on for about 9 months, now nothing. That activity was prompted by a crash that injured some Amish, and suddenly the legislature found out that people are driving people around without the PUC license. They cracked down under the guise of "doing something" then it has languished ever since. There are now more unlicensed van drivers than ever, and they won't do anything until there's another crash with injuries, and find the driver wasn't licensed by the PUC..

Meanwhile the crackdown was all about "safety" and the MCE's idea of safety was to leave women and children along side the road while they either towed the van or made it leave because they couldn't continue with passengers.

I know, I'm cynical.
Click to expand...
Same pulsed enforcement played out in my SoCal beach town of Carlsbad, CA after 2 people died in bicycle-involved traffic accidents in the summer of 2022.

But realistically, that may have been more about limited enforcement resources than anything else. And better than doing nothing at all.

The context is important. North (San Diego) County was in the midst of an explosion of irresponsible tourists and school kids on ebikes. The situation was clearly out of control and getting worse. Something truly had to be done.

In this climate, the city council responded to the 2 deaths by declaring a "public safety emergency". This gave them the authority to pass emergency bicycle regs that later became permanent ordinances. All bikes were targeted, not just ebikes

The new rules basically gave city police the authority to enforce responsible riding. I had no quibble with any of the common-sense restrictions and welcomed the enforcement.

A big media and enforcement blitz followed but sadly fizzled within a few months.

Doubt that any of the public safety officials involved wanted that, but they may have had no choice. A sheriff told me last year that North County enforcement agencies are losing officers faster than they can hire and train up new ones. (Little wonder for such an increasingly thankless job.)

In that setting, pulsed enforcement may be a reasonable strategy: Make a highly visible splash, get a buzz going among at least the locals and bike shop and rental operators, and move on to other issues, revisting periodically as resources allow. Kinda like state highway patrols do on high-DUI holidays.
 
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I think it's probably wrong to make bikes illegal because of how fast they can go. We don't do that with cars and trucks on our roads. Behavior should be regulated, not hardware, at least for the most part. Any bike can do 40 mph down a long hill. Should all bikes therefore be banned? Should you ride at 40 mph down a long hill with pedestrians and other bikers on the path? I think anyone doing that should at least be cited, even if they're on a one-speed (non-electric) Schwinn from the 1950's.

Set speed limits and enforce them. Although, as someone else pointed out, good luck with that. We hardly do that with cars on the road.

TT
 
Tars Tarkas said:
I think it's probably wrong to make bikes illegal because of how fast they can go. We don't do that with cars and trucks on our roads. Behavior should be regulated, not hardware, at least for the most part. Any bike can do 40 mph down a long hill. Should all bikes therefore be banned? Should you ride at 40 mph down a long hill with pedestrians and other bikers on the path? I think anyone doing that should at least be cited, even if they're on a one-speed (non-electric) Schwinn from the 1950's.

Set speed limits and enforce them. Although, as someone else pointed out, good luck with that. We hardly do that with cars on the road.

TT
Click to expand...
there are already speed limits for bicycles going down hills most of the time - they’re the same as for cars on the same road.

arguing the fact that bikes can go fast down a hill is a classic the fallacy of the exception to justify the norm. i’d wager 95% of bike miles ridden are not significantly downhill, especially acoustic bikes which also have to be ridden up the same hill. in amsterdam, it’s probably 99.9%

similarly, the fact that a professional cyclist can hit 30mph for a brief period doesn’t mean e-bikes should be allowed to go 30mph wherever they feel like!
 
I cycled around Amsterdam, the thing that struck me was helmetless women cycling along at speed with helmetless toddlers and babies strapped to the bikes in various horrifically dangerous looking contraptions attatched to handlebars, crossbars and rear stays.

I had to stop looking in the end, they casually carve through mopeds and cars like something out of a circus act.

Outside of the city centre there are paths that meander next to the road but then pull off through parks and into pedestrian areas, they seemed to be used by mopeds and scooters as well.

There are signs saying no motorbikes, but they seem widely ignored.

But then again it's Holland, we visited the children's floor of Amsterdam museum and there were two giant robot tongues that the kids could operate to make them french kiss each other.

We noped out of there.
 
Chargeride said:
But then again it's Holland, we visited the children's floor of Amsterdam museum and there were two giant robot tongues that the kids could operate to make them french kiss each other.
Click to expand...
Very forward-thinking if you ask me. French kissing is an art. Best to start visualizing the mechanics early so you'll be ready for the real thing in 2nd grade.
;^}
 
mschwett said:
there are already speed limits for bicycles going down hills most of the time - they’re the same as for cars on the same road.

arguing the fact that bikes can go fast down a hill is a classic the fallacy of the exception to justify the norm. i’d wager 95% of bike miles ridden are not significantly downhill, especially acoustic bikes which also have to be ridden up the same hill. in amsterdam, it’s probably 99.9%

similarly, the fact that a professional cyclist can hit 30mph for a brief period doesn’t mean e-bikes should be allowed to go 30mph wherever they feel like!
Click to expand...
In simpler terms, I'm just saying it doesn't matter what kind of bike it is or how fast it can go, it matters how fast it's going, which is totally in control of the rider. I hope you didn't take what I said to mean that I think ebikes should be allowed to go 30 mph wherever they like. That would be ridiculous.

TT
 
Tars Tarkas said:
In simpler terms, I'm just saying it doesn't matter what kind of bike it is or how fast it can go, it matters how fast it's going, which is totally in control of the rider.
Click to expand...
And then you wonder why more and more U.S. communities ban e-bikes, and you people have trouble to ride an e-bike into a national park.

Europe has defined the e-bike as a type and made it legally just a bicycle. Making everything simple and not relying on the person's good or bad will.
 
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