Does anyone make a bike like this?

[rtp]

I realize I'm posting in the WW forum, maybe as a partial 'hint' and to see if there are any plans in the works.
Background: have ridden dirt bikes and motorcycles for a while, wrench on my own cars/bikes/etc., and currently have a FS e-bike with BBSHD. We do have some reasonable park and mtb trails around, while my wife is a bit less adventurous to date (has a Gazelle/Bosch).

I'm not in great shape at 6' 230#, but part of jumping into ebikes is meant to improve that.
On the BBSHD, I've quickly realized the difference between cadence and torque sensors, and sort of work around it by changing PAS levels and gearing for when I want to do more than ghost pedal. I'm not going to lie and claim I want to pedal everywhere, but I'm quickly becoming convinced a torque sensor + competent programming + throttle option is where I want to go.

I am a bit adrenaline/speed addicted and have had a few track cars I modified to go do track days on, but never rode the motorcycles on track, although have ridden some heavy pig dual-sports places they probably shouldn't go. Old enough at this point I'm not looking for anything remotely resembling a competitive 'race' bike, but reliable and ability to go 'most places' with some speed and predictability of behavior.

I expect I'll keep on keeping on for a bit with the current bike, but I can see an 'upgrade' coming in the not-far-off future.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion the Archon/innotrace is the answer on the Ultra, although I'm unsure if there are others. Had looked at Luna for a bit before I dug in more, and really am questioning if anyone really has decent programming on the stock controller, while I'm not even sure it's possible yet with CANBUS or if the supply of UART Ultra motors is already ended for new bikes now or not.

I like the Hydra, but I don't love it for 3 reasons...for my purpose. I meanwhile can see how many others obviously would/could love nearly everything about it.
1. No kickstand. Yes, really. Riding with the wife and we've done some miles. We want to go to <where we want to go> and not everywhere has a convenient tree or wall to park the bike.
2. No rear rack. Not looking for motorcycle hard cases, or to lead it up, and am aware of the impact to suspension, but - gotta be able to throw a small bag <somewhere other than my back> ideally.
3. Pricing.

Speccing out the Hydra gets rather $ quickly, while I don't think the Black does it for me - this isn't a slam on them as they very likely are among the best bikes I've come across, but they're not 'quite' a fit. Give me an aluminum-framed Hydra with an Archon controller, a kickstand and rear rack and lights, full suspension, and I'd probably upgrade it to a bit over the cost of the Black. I'd probably got with either fat or 3" tires, possibly winding up with 2 sets of wheels/tires over time. Basically a casual-ish but FS 'can do it' mobile.. not worried about being fastest/most performant but not afraid to get dirty or get some air (or pavement) time in, etc. All things are inherently compromises the second they're not razor focused, but sort of the equivalent of my DRZ-400S - it's heavy for a dirt bike, but I've gotten some airtime on it. It's 'good enough' on the road (although desperately needs another gear), etc.

I suppose I 'could' buy a frame and build a bike, and wait/hope WW eventually has Archon Ultras for sale in the future, or buy the motor and controller from Innotrace, but I've got a fair amount of other projects. I suppose I could buy a ~$3k Ultra powered bike and then send the Ultra to Innotrace, then upgrade parts as I feel like it.

I'm sure I'm not the only one going through a similar thought processes..

@pushkar - any plans for a slightly down-leveled aluminum framed Hydra in the future with a kickstand, rear rack and rear light option?

Anyone have any other ideas other than hiding receipts from my wife (not a preferred option)?

 

[rich c]

You'll never get a dirt bike out of an electric assisted bicycle. A lot of people try, but then ask why they only get 100 miles to a chain or gears. https://electricbikereview.com/foru...e-mtb-drivetrain-brutality.45984/#post-479649 Now for my rant, people who want to ride at high speed on mtb trails will soon make it impossible for anyone on a class 1 eMtb to be able to ride. Nothing upsets mtb people more is being dusted off by a "dirt bike" on throttle only on the trails.

 

[scrambler]

On the WW side, the closest would be the FS titanium that Pushkar mentioned a while back below

Full Suspension, Cargo & Step Thru Titanium Frame

I don't know if this is the right forum, but for some reason I thought WattWagon owners would be interested in seeing this frame 😄 https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Titanium-Bafang-G510-bike-frame-titanium_62448487495.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.c8f6735eKpYSX0

electricbikereview.com

But I have no idea if / when that is planned.

Otherwise, you have solutions at Riese and Mueller and Nicolai.

None of these will be cheap however...

You could also consider a Cheaper Ultra based bike like the Sondors Rockstar,. and upgrade to the archon Controller when available...

 

[rtp]

You'll never get a dirt bike out of an electric assisted bicycle. A lot of people try, but then ask why they only get 100 miles to a chain or gears. https://electricbikereview.com/foru...e-mtb-drivetrain-brutality.45984/#post-479649 Now for my rant, people who want to ride at high speed on mtb trails will soon make it impossible for anyone on a class 1 eMtb to be able to ride. Nothing upsets mtb people more is being dusted off by a "dirt bike" on throttle only on the trails.

Sure, I know it, and not trying to replace a dirt bike. One of the things I (finally?) learned spending time on the track with the car, as well as riding motorcycles and small cars for years is track time while intense, is still relatively controlled and you never know what's around the next blind corner on the road, or what <someone> may be doing, so I'm pretty defense. No plans to terrorize the neighborhood, tear up national monuments or anything else, and I'm pretty cognizant of other drivers and riders - having said that, I'd like to have fun as well.

I don't necessarily need the max wattage Archon/Innotrace either, although I'm not seeing a Euro 250 or 500W doing it either, but do expect the 'future bike' to be predictable and sane in it's behavior and reaction to inputs, thus my strong interest in the Archon/Innotrace controller.

 

[rtp]

On the WW side, the closest would be the FS titanium that Pushkar mentioned a while back below

Full Suspension, Cargo & Step Thru Titanium Frame

I don't know if this is the right forum, but for some reason I thought WattWagon owners would be interested in seeing this frame 😄 https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Titanium-Bafang-G510-bike-frame-titanium_62448487495.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.c8f6735eKpYSX0

electricbikereview.com

But I have no idea if / when that is planned.

Otherwise, you have solutions at Riese and Mueller and Nicolai.

None of these will be cheap however...

You could also consider a Cheaper Ultra based bike like the Sondors Rockstar,. and upgrade to the archon Controller when available...

Excellent link and darned close to what's in my head (other than the tires..), although would be ok with AL as well. Going to go read that entire thread now.
Belt drive that's reliable under power would sure be nice, but I'd also be fine with 8-10spd w/chain.
Seems like WW is reducing advertised bikes in response to ones they feel they have a chance of being able to deliver on (supply chain, etc.) - but would sure be interested in what options would be there on that or a similar bike.

Fair point RE: e.g. Rockstar or similar - just remains unknown if eventually selling the controllers separately or even full motor and Archon are in WW's expected plans - was kind of thrown by the new site - no parts, no accessories, etc. that I've seen on the new site..

 

[pushkar]

Archon
1. We have plans to offer the motors and Archon upgrades in the future. Right now we are catching up to existing orders.
2. We also have chip shortages on the controller (which is why e have pushed back availability for the CAN version).

Realistically we anticipate standalone X1 upgrade availability by end of Q1 with the current chip shortages. Please also expect change in price.

TBH, we are getting into territory where it may be more cost effective to get a complete bike.

 

[rtp]

Archon
1. We have plans to offer the motors and Archon upgrades in the future. Right now we are catching up to existing orders.
2. We also have chip shortages on the controller (which is why e have pushed back availability for the CAN version).

Realistically we anticipate standalone X1 upgrade availability by end of Q1 with the current chip shortages. Please also expect change in price.

TBH, we are getting into territory where it may be more cost effective to get a complete bike.

Thanks for the response, @pushkar !
Good to know standalone controller/ultra sales are still in future plans, pandemic/supply chain issues allowing at least.

RE: the bolded part 'may be more cost effective to get a complete bike' - true statement, if e.g. you made a Hydra with Al frame, kickstand and rear rack it would be 'my bike' and in a price range I could cope with. Otherwise for my use, I'm still at a big jump from let's say $3-$4K for a bike with kickstand, rear rack and FS + the ultra/archon vs what, UC Pro FS Trail in the future for some $8-9K?

No doubt what you guys are building is top shelf, just looking for the right fit for myself. $8-9K is just well beyond what I can in good conscience spend on an e-bike.

I have run a not-too-dissimilar type of business but it's been a while back. Got burned a few times on suppliers as well as machine shops, but nothing like what we're seeing now, and most of my component parts weren't coming from overseas. Inventory mgmt, or worse, component mgmt where missing some few small parts can stop outbound shipments to customers (e.g. bikes) is a nightmare and one I don't envy you on. Not going to 'give you advice' or gripe about it, as only you know the realities of your business, but hey - I can hope, right?

I suspect the current offerings are due to the pandemic (streamline to fewer models/reduce delays where possible) + seems like you're working on becoming a manufacturer. I could see a future state where you have the same general range of bikes but with AL or TI frames as options alongside the carbon, with the point being none are 'cheap' but the guys that are looking for 'not cheap' and willing to spend a bit without jumping to $10K, have a $3500-$5K option out there with solid components and the Archon/X1 option (with kickstand and a small rear rack ).

Heck, if I could get a Hydra e.g. with a kickstand, no dropper seat or seat I won't use (can guarantee I'd replace it anyways and have one on hand), and a single color - I'm pretty close. I could then add a Thule or other MTB rack and some Kydex for minimal front fender, F/R lights and I'd probably be there..

Note- some of this is just thinking aloud and hopefully no one takes anything above as negatives. From what I've seen, looks to me like Pushkar and WW have among the best bikes out there, no doubt. I just have some $ boundaries and trying to sort my overall options, as no matter where I wind up, it will eventually need to have at the least an Archon Ultra in it...

 

[pushkar]

Thanks for the response, @pushkar !
Good to know standalone controller/ultra sales are still in future plans, pandemic/supply chain issues allowing at least.

RE: the bolded part 'may be more cost effective to get a complete bike' - true statement, if e.g. you made a Hydra with Al frame, kickstand and rear rack it would be 'my bike' and in a price range I could cope with. Otherwise for my use, I'm still at a big jump from let's say $3-$4K for a bike with kickstand, rear rack and FS + the ultra/archon vs what, UC Pro FS Trail in the future for some $8-9K?

I agree that 5-6k is the sweet spot for a lot of bikes today. However it is incredibly hard to build something good, with the new controller and still be at that price point. I looked around and the lowest price reasonable spec ultra is the Biktrix juggernaut. That starts at $4500. Even if you add the Archon controller, it will be around 5.2-5.3k. So we are quickly getting into territory where we have the Hydra black at 4899 + controller upgrade.

Kick stand and fenders and rack are not going to be easy on the FS the way it is designed. We have an upcoming Helios that has all those - but pricing gets to be an issue.

No doubt what you guys are building is top shelf, just looking for the right fit for myself. $8-9K is just well beyond what I can in good conscience spend on an e-bike.

I have run a not-too-dissimilar type of business but it's been a while back. Got burned a few times on suppliers as well as machine shops, but nothing like what we're seeing now, and most of my component parts weren't coming from overseas. Inventory mgmt, or worse, component mgmt where missing some few small parts can stop outbound shipments to customers (e.g. bikes) is a nightmare and one I don't envy you on. Not going to 'give you advice' or gripe about it, as only you know the realities of your business, but hey - I can hope, right?

Yes, its pretty bad. I believe most of the importers are placing orders well into 2022. We work with manufacturers directly, and we are placing orders into 2024/ 2025 right now . Oh.. and we can't cancel in 2023 because the order is over 180 days old! Weird.

I suspect the current offerings are due to the pandemic (streamline to fewer models/reduce delays where possible) + seems like you're working on becoming a manufacturer. I could see a future state where you have the same general range of bikes but with AL or TI frames as options alongside the carbon, with the point being none are 'cheap' but the guys that are looking for 'not cheap' and willing to spend a bit without jumping to $10K, have a $3500-$5K option out there with solid components and the Archon/X1 option (with kickstand and a small rear rack ).

TI will be more expensive than carbon across the board. Aluminum will be reasonable - but again the issue is for aluminum with reasonable components, the pricing starts at ~4500 today. So it will be really really hard to be in the 3-5k range and provide a performance product. Even if we make our own motors etc, it will STILL be very hard to be in the price range.

I have struggled with this in the past but here is a range of costs if you were to build something yourself in today's prices

1. Frame (if you can find it) - $600-$1000 delivered to you.
2. Stock Motor - $900
3. Tires / tubes - $600-$800
4. Shifter derailleur cassette - $250-$700
5. Battery - $700-$1000 depending what quality you get.
6. Handlebars / stem / grips / saddle / seat post. etc - $500-$600
7. Front suspension - $450 - $1250
8. Rear suspension - $250-$950

I picked middle / avg values for parts that will last at least a couple of years, and it comes to $4800 without any assembly or controller upgrade. It is tough out there.

Heck, if I could get a Hydra e.g. with a kickstand, no dropper seat or seat I won't use (can guarantee I'd replace it anyways and have one on hand), and a single color - I'm pretty close. I could then add a Thule or other MTB rack and some Kydex for minimal front fender, F/R lights and I'd probably be there..

Note- some of this is just thinking aloud and hopefully no one takes anything above as negatives. From what I've seen, looks to me like Pushkar and WW have among the best bikes out there, no doubt. I just have some $ boundaries and trying to sort my overall options, as no matter where I wind up, it will eventually need to have at the least an Archon Ultra in it...

I absolutely agree with you - sticking to your comfort range. I really hope that by 2023 / 2024 we have a recalibration of pricing. There is very little chance that prices are going to go down in the interim.

Supply chains are stressed. We are aware of raw material shortages (e.g. aluminum, carbon fiber etc) across 3 different suppliers right now. Like literally aluminum for the 7000 series or 6000 series is just not available. Insanity - complete insanity.

I wish we had better news.

 

[rtp]

I agree that 5-6k is the sweet spot for a lot of bikes today. However it is incredibly hard to build something good, with the new controller and still be at that price point. I looked around and the lowest price reasonable spec ultra is the Biktrix juggernaut. That starts at $4500. Even if you add the Archon controller, it will be around 5.2-5.3k. So we are quickly getting into territory where we have the Hydra black at 4899 + controller upgrade.

Yep, understood and don’t disagree. Actually, per the below..

TI will be more expensive than carbon across the board. Aluminum will be reasonable - but again the issue is for aluminum with reasonable components, the pricing starts at ~4500 today. So it will be really really hard to be in the 3-5k range and provide a performance product. Even if we make our own motors etc, it will STILL be very hard to be in the price range.

I have struggled with this in the past but here is a range of costs if you were to build something yourself in today's prices

1. Frame (if you can find it) - $600-$1000 delivered to you.
2. Stock Motor - $900
3. Tires / tubes - $600-$800
4. Shifter derailleur cassette - $250-$700
5. Battery - $700-$1000 depending what quality you get.
6. Handlebars / stem / grips / saddle / seat post. etc - $500-$600
7. Front suspension - $450 - $1250
8. Rear suspension - $250-$950

I picked middle / avg values for parts that will last at least a couple of years, and it comes to $4800 without any assembly or controller upgrade. It is tough out there.

I’m going through exactly the same exercise and don’t come up too far off from you above - pretty close, I think, depending on the specific components chosen I’m somewhere around $5K to build it myself using e.g. Box 2 Prime 9, DT Swiss H1900 hubs/wheels, Magura, mid+ fork (~$800-ish to me), Fox x2 float rear.

I’ve also got a list of FAR too many options in my notes I just posted a thread on. Literally nothing worth buying at all FS is sub-$4k IMO, and on some of them it’s already a case of ’and I will want to replace X’. I thought I had found a carbon frame with updated geometry like the Hydra, seemingly not same manu as for Hydra, but Biktrix apparently has that locked up for their new Monte-something…but at their price point I’d buy the Hydra (for a bit more as I’d spec it) or a Hydra Black.

Supply chains are stressed. We are aware of raw material shortages (e.g. aluminum, carbon fiber etc) across 3 different suppliers right now. Like literally aluminum for the 7000 series or 6000 series is just not available. Insanity - complete insanity.

I wish we had better news.

Yes, tough to be both a seller/manufacturer and buyer right now all around.

I’ve got a few more weeks of waffling/digging in further into my options. At least I have a bike now, if not the bike I want. I need to go do some permutations of DIY on both price and weight, but I still waffle between M600 vs M620. I think at one point you had mentioned plans for Archon for M600, or possibly a bike. I’m going to guess because all of the preceding challenges, any new bike ‘soon-ish’ is unlikely as you’ve got the Hydra and Helios + UC to catch up on, but is there still any plan for Archon/M600 in the future? (‘don’t know/TBD’ is of course a suitable if sad-for-me answer..

 

[pushkar]

the Archon m600 version already works in the lab. We have been waiting for a production run for a while now - possibly Q32022 at this stage due to chip shortage.