Does anyone have suggestions for a better battery?

Fort Ord

Member
So, a year ago, I purchased my first ebike - a DJ mountain bike, 750W bafang rear hub motor. I installed a Voilamart 1500Watt kit, and upgraded the battery to a 52V 25AH 1500W Hailong Ebike Battery. The thing works well insofar as I get the promised MPH out of the motor. The downside is range - I get a max of 8-10 miles out of the thing, fully charged.
The bike is my commuter and in the event Monterey County/California in general opens up, I'd like to use it as such - for a 21 mile round trip commute. I kitted out the old battery, a 52V 13.5W shark-type battery which was original to the bike, to use as a backup, and so I get +-20 mile range now, but still, I'd like to get one beefy battery that will power a 1500W motor and give me a range od 30 miles if possible.

I'd be grateful for suggestions.
thank you,
rd
 
Well the capacity of the battery you list is a warning sign right off the bat. Hailongs (aka 'shark' packs) are just a commercially available empty case and what is inside of it is anyone's guess depending on who put what inside of it. I can say for sure there is zero chance a Shark pack in any of its varying sizes is capable of 52v and 25ah. Even the Em3EV Jumbo Shark is only capable of a max of 17ah (14S5P and Samsung 35E cells).

Your more typical generic Hailong run-of-the-mill Shark is a 14S4P pack and in the ballpark of 14ah. I am looking at EM3EV for my numbers as they are probably the only ones I would buy a Shark-style pack from, and theirs are actually beefed up physically to get around the common issues with Hailong packs and broken tabs/shorted connectors.

So... Sadly I am pretty sure I know why you aren't getting the range you were promised. You got taken from the sound of it. Sorry for the bad news :-(

I am buying packs from Bicycle Motor Works these days. Matt Bzura runs it and he is a USA seller (Pennsylvania) who builds his packs locally once they are ordered. For one of my bikes (a Surly Big Fat Dummy) I have a 21ah pack that has a 35a continuous, 70a peak BMS that should at least be the equal of what you have now - and you can probably ask him to upgrade to a more powerful BMS (he may be slowing down his custom pack production). Recently I had him build me - using Samsung 40T 21700 cells - a 52v, 32ah pack with an 80a continuous BMS for my 2wd cargo bike. So, if he is accepting custom orders, he can build you anything. Otherwise he has a pretty wide range to choose from in stock configs.


None of what I am describing is a Hailong pack. You would want to switch to a battery bag. Luna makes a cheap one and I know of a REALLY cheap, but slow, custom bag manufacturer (Uraltour.com; he sells on ebay under the name Uraltour). I actually use it in a quick-detach setup so I can easily pull the battery out and bring it inside with me. Might be useful to you. The pack in this article below is the exact 21ah one I am referring to and I was still using the $35 Luna bag at the time I wrote that. Also if you have a big frame, Falcon EV makes a wonderful, old-school pack.


BTW I call my home Pacific Grove even though I am stuck down in Fresno on an extended work visa right now :). You might recognize the spot I took this pic. On that mission, a Pavel's sesame cheddar bagel went missing in action without a trace.
IMG_20190827_082401.jpg


The pack on this bike above is a Luna Wolf pack, which is potted and essentially bulletproof. However they are heavy. Luna's Dire Wolf version of that pack would give you the range you want but its 21ah size is 14.5 lbs and costs $795 when its in stock.
 
I just googled "52V 25AH 1500W" and sure enough, there are a slew of results. I was hoping there was some kind of Hailong pack I was unaware of with super capacity. Doesn't look like it. All I see are inflated claims from cheap Chinese pack sellers on standard issue Hailong cases. They are claiming '14S5P" cells (a bank of 14 cells connected serially which makes 52v, with 5 of those hooked into a parallel connection to give you capacity at that voltage). They are also not mentioning the cells inside which is always a bad sign. Prices on these 52v/25ah packs seems to be in the $250 range which is waaaaay lower than market.

Kyle Chittock over at Bolton Ebikes has 25ah and 30ah 52v triangle packs but he's presently sold out. Its the same story everywhere for my usual sources except Bicycle Motorworks so far as I can tell, and his stockpile of quality cells can't last forever. Either sellers are sold out or their prices have shot up big time.
 
Wow! I am really grateful for the very informative responses! My heart goes out to you, stuck in Fresno?? Nightmare. The city that meth destroyed… my wife has an 18th century oil featuring a rampant lion and a Latin phrase which translates to”the bitterness of poor quality will be remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”. You have given me some avenues to pursue and I’m really grateful. BTW I used to call Carmel Valley during marriage 1.0. Now I live on East Campus and am in the process of reinventing myself… at any rate, thanks again!
 
If you bought that 52v on alibaba you got taken, I got one as well stated to be 20ah, can’t get 10 miles out of it, I complained to alibaba and got my money back.

The 17ah I got with the bike gets me 40 miles easy. I ended up buying a second one from the bike company at the tune of $700 but that allows me 80ish miles without issue.
 
34mph. It has raised the fun quotient significantly!
That's amazing.

By the way, didn't need the speed info to estimate the following. Lets say the original battery was marketed honestly as 52V13Ah and you got 12 miles. If your second battery gets 8 miles. it's an 8.6AH battery, about half the promised 20AH. It's probably 20AH if used to run a small headlight, but not a motor.
 
That's amazing.

By the way, didn't need the speed info to estimate the following. Lets say the original battery was marketed honestly as 52V13Ah and you got 12 miles. If your second battery gets 8 miles. it's an 8.6AH battery, about half the promised 20AH. It's probably 20AH if used to run a small headlight, but not a motor.
I believe amp hours means how many hours you get 1 amp.
So it wouldn't matter if you ran a motor or a headlight, it would still be the same amp hours for that battery.
 
I believe amp hours means how many hours you get 1 amp.
So it wouldn't matter if you ran a motor or a headlight, it would still be the same amp hours for that battery.

Amp hour is the rating used to tell consumers how much amperage a battery can provide for exactly one hour. in theory a 10Ah battery can provide 1 amp of power for ten hours or 10amps for 1 hour

Amps is a measure of the current any electrical device – in our case an e-bike motor,

so in the OPs case. 1500watts and a 48v motor = 1500/48. = 31.35 amps. So if in fact his motor is pulling 31 amps then a 30ah battery would last approx 1 hour at full throttle (if full throttle was being provided 100% for the full hour). The Bafang 750watt motor actually peaks at 1500 watts but doesn’t maintain that wattage consistently and doing so for long periods of time will burn out the motor, So technically that motor is running 750/48 = 15.6 amps. Most of the time. However I have personally tested several Bafang 750watt Motors on a bench and discovered that they are very inconsistent in their peak ratings, I have never tested one that actually got above 1200 watts.

however we also have to take into consideration any BMS (battery monitor system) installed within the battery, typically those are 15amp or 30amp. In the case of most Hailong, they are 15amp, so the battery will not allow a draw of more than 15amps before the protection kicks in and kills the battery. You will find in most of these type batteries if the BMS kicked in, that connecting it to a charger and disconnecting after 2-3 seconds, the BMS resets and you still have a lot of battery left.

In the case of mine as I posted above, the BMS would kick over at about 11 miles, if I plugged in the charger and removed it I would get another 10 miles out of the battery, multimeter reading showed it was at 45-46 volts after 11 miles, but the BMS kicked in.

I subsequently replaced the 15amp BPM with a 30amp BPM that prevented this issue from occurring, as the OEM batteries from Cyrusher come with a 30amp BMS. However even doing so I never got more than 20 miles out of a rated “20ah” Hailong That i bought on Alibaba regardless of the PAS settings but the 17ah from Cyrusher gets 48 miles using the same PAS settings and all things being equal (i.e. same path to work, same stop and go, same speed, same PAS, etc.)

I work for an Electric car manufacturer, and have access to some testing equipment and a lot of smart people that know about how all of this works, I have done some real world research as to fine tune my e-bikes for the best range and speed I can get.

I own the following e-bikes.

Cyrusher XF800. Bafang 750watt - peak 1,283 watts (from my testing)
Cyrusher XF650. generic 1000watt - peak 1,012 watts (from my testing)
Bikonit HD750. Bafang 750watt (same motor model as the Cyrusher XF800) peak 1,145 watts (from my testing)
Custom made Tandem with Bafang 500watt - peak 1045 watts (from my testing)

each of these bikes (except HD-750) are using the exact same controller (Bolton Rad Power upgrade 30amp controller) and display (bolton Rad Power KT-LCD8H). They are all programmed exactly the same. Meaning that the P and C settings are identical on all of these bikes as the motor specs are the same (number of magnets, tire size, etc). The HD-750 has the bikonit controller, but the settings are the same as the other bikes.

I have tested and documented the following: testing done using exact same route and circumstances

On the Cyrusher XF800 I can hit a max speed of 37mph (peddling) on flat land and get a range of 22 miles in PAS 5 and 48 miles in PAS 3 with the OEM 17.5ah battery
On the Cyrusher XF650 I can hit a max speed of 27mph (peddling) on flat land and get a range of 28 miles in PAS 5 and 52 miles in PAS 3 with the XF800 17.5ah battery
On the Bikonit HD750 I can hit a max speed of 32mph (peddling) on flat land and get a range of 51 miles in PAS 5 and 78 in PAS 3 on the dual 15ah batteries
On my tandem I can hit a max speed of 34mph (two people peddling) on flat land and get a range of 32 miles in PAS5 and 55 miles in PAS3 on a 20ah dorado battery (two people total weight of 350lbs)

All of these bikes have the C5 setting set to “5” which prevents the motor from exceeding 750watts, they never peak at the Bafang rated “peak“ of 1,500 watts, I am more concerned with range than I am with speed, I rarely throttle only except to assist getting up a hill so I don‘t lose momentum. The Tandem only peaks at 610 watts as it has a smaller 500 watt motor.

I weigh 220lbs and all of these bikes have upgraded gearing (53T crank and 11 speed mag) except the Bikonit, it still has the OEM 42T crank.

the primary difference I see in range and speed is the overall weight of the bikes,

Unladen weight of each bike
XF800 - 76lbs
XF650 - 64lbs
HD750 - 71lbs
tandem - 98lbs.

hopefully this info is helpful to someone. I was bored this morning, so y’all get to read my long winded post.

FWIW max speed (while peddling) is entirely person dependent. I have topped out at 37mph on my XF800 and my daughter can’t get it above 26mph under the same circumstances.
 
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Amp hour is the rating used to tell consumers how much amperage a battery can provide for exactly one hour. in theory a 10Ah battery can provide 1 amp of power for ten hours or 10amps for 1 hour

Amps is a measure of the current any electrical device – in our case an e-bike motor,

so in the OPs case. 1500watts and a 48v motor = 1500/48. = 31.35 amps. So if in fact his motor is pulling 31 amps then a 30ah battery would last approx 1 hour at full throttle (if full throttle was being provided 100% for the full hour). The Bafang 750watt motor actually peaks at 1500 watts but doesn’t maintain that wattage consistently and doing so for long periods of time will burn out the motor, So technically that motor is running 750/48 = 15.6 amps. Most of the time. However I have personally tested several Bafang 750watt Motors on a bench and discovered that they are very inconsistent in their peak ratings, I have never tested one that actually got above 1200 watts.

however we also have to take into consideration any BMS (battery monitor system) installed within the battery, typically those are 15amp or 30amp. In the case of most Hailong, they are 15amp, so the battery will not allow a draw of more than 15amps before the protection kicks in and kills the battery. You will find in most of these type batteries if the BMS kicked in, that connecting it to a charger and disconnecting after 2-3 seconds, the BMS resets and you still have a lot of battery left.

In the case of mine as I posted above, the BMS would kick over at about 11 miles, if I plugged in the charger and removed it I would get another 10 miles out of the battery, multimeter reading showed it was at 45-46 volts after 11 miles, but the BMS kicked in.

I subsequently replaced the 15amp BPM with a 30amp BPM that prevented this issue from occurring, as the OEM batteries from Cyrusher come with a 30amp BMS. However even doing so I never got more than 20 miles out of a rated “30ah” Hailong bought on Alibaba regardless of the PAS settings but the 17ah from Cyrusher gets 48 miles using the same PAS settings and all things being equal (i.e. same path to work, same stop and go, same speed, same PAS, etc.)

I work for an Electric car manufacturer, and have access to some testing equipment and a lot of smart people that know about how all of this works, I have done some real world research as to fine tune my e-bikes for the best range and speed I can get.

I own the following e-bikes.

Cyrusher XF800. Bafang 750watt - peak 1,283 watts (from my testing)
Cyrusher XF650. generic 1000watt - peak 1,012 watts (from my testing)
Bikonit HD750. Bafang 750watt (same motor model as the Cyrusher XF800) peak 1,145 watts (from my testing)
Custom made Tandem with Bafang 500watt - peak 1045 watts (from my testing)

each of these bikes (except HD-750) are using the exact same controller (Bolton Rad Power upgrade 30amp controller) and display (bolton Rad Power KT-LCD8H). They are all programmed exactly the same. Meaning that the P and C settings are identical on all of these bikes as the motor specs are the same (number of magnets, tire size, etc). The HD-750 has the bikonit controller, but the settings are the same as the other bikes.

I have tested and documented the following: testing done using exact same route and circumstances

On the Cyrusher XF800 I can hit a max speed of 37mph (peddling) on flat land and get a range of 22 miles in PAS 5 and 48 miles in PAS 3 with the OEM 17.5ah battery
On the Cyrusher XF650 I can hit a max speed of 27mph (peddling) on flat land and get a range of 28 miles in PAS 5 and 52 miles in PAS 3 with the XF800 17.5ah battery
On the Bikonit HD750 I can hit a max speed of 32mph (peddling) on flat land and get a range of 51 miles in PAS 5 and 78 in PAS 3 on the dual 15ah batteries
On my tandem I can hit a max speed of 34mph (two people peddling) on flat land and get a range of 32 miles in PAS5 and 55 miles in PAS3 on a 20ah dorado battery (two people total weight of 350lbs)

All of these bikes have the C5 setting set to “5” which prevents the motor from exceeding 750watts, they never peak at the Bafang rated “peak“ of 1,500 watts, I am more concerned with range than I am with speed, I rarely throttle only except to assist getting up a hill so I don‘t lose momentum. The Tandem only peaks at 610 watts as it has a smaller 500 watt motor.

I weigh 220lbs and all of these bikes have upgraded gearing (53T crank and 11 speed mag) except the Bikonit, it still has the OEM 42T crank.

the primary difference I see in range and speed is the overall weight of the bikes,

Unladen weight of each bike
XF800 - 76lbs
XF650 - 64lbs
HD750 - 71lbs
tandem - 98lbs.

hopefully this info is helpful to someone. I was bored this morning, so y’all get to read my long winded post.

FWIW max speed (while peddling) is entirely person dependent. I have topped out at 37mph on my XF800 and my daughter can’t get it above 26mph under the same circumstances.
Like I said, amp hours is based on one amp per hour. 20AH = 1 amp for 20 hours. Pretty simple really.
 
You're all forgetting that the battery capacity is a measured attribute, and is based on rate of discharge. Pulling 5 amps out of a cell vs 50ma makes a big difference.
 
You're all forgetting that the battery capacity is a measured attribute, and is based on rate of discharge. Pulling 5 amps out of a cell vs 50ma makes a big difference.
If you are referring to battery sag, It still does not change the AH of a battery.
A 20 AH battery still indicates 1 amp for 20 hours.
 
Like I said, amp hours is based on one amp per hour. 20AH = 1 amp for 20 hours. Pretty simple really.
Pretty wrong really. Amp hours have been used to rate batteries since before the Sears Diehard was invented. Nobody ever tested a car battery at 1 amp. Test current of an AH rating should be specified for complete knowledge, but amazon/ebay/alibaba are the wild west where all sorts of wild claims earn five stars. Sears used to specify the time their AH rating described, 20 hours. So Sears is dead, obsolete.
The best specified lithium battery I bought, a btrbattery from Amazon, was complete trash. I got my money back. Pack of lies is what I bought.
 
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Pretty wrong really. Amp hours have been used to rate batteries since before the Sears Diehard was invented. Nobody ever tested a car battery at 1 amp. Test current of an AH rating should be specified for complete knowledge, but amazon/ebay/alibaba are the wild west where all sorts of wild claims earn five stars. Sears used to specify the time their AH rating described, 20 hours. So Sears is dead, obsolete.
The best specified lithium battery I bought, a btrbattery from Amazon, was complete trash. I got my money back. Pack of lies is what I bought.
Wow, just wow!
The amp hour rating has nothing to do with you getting ripped off by fake claims.
An amp hour is a SCIENTIFIC measurement = ONE AMP PER HOUR ! All you have to do is Google it !
Pretty right and pretty simple, REALLY
 
Back to the well. Do any readers have experience with UPP batteries? (Unit Power Pack is the company name). Reputable supplier? Feedback GREATLY appreciated!
 
Your best bet right now (and always tbh) is Paul at em3ev https://em3ev.com

Paul is an English guy in China who makes some of the best batteries available and due to the current state of the cell market is more likely to be able to source good cells due to being based in China and being very well known in the industry. He's one of two people i trust for batteries.
 
Back to the well. Do any readers have experience with UPP batteries? (Unit Power Pack is the company name). Reputable supplier? Feedback GREATLY appreciated!
They're terrible. I'm skipping the long story in favor of the short one. there are people who post about how much money they save. If you've been around the block a bit you've seen more than a few horror stories though.

Also: I bought a custom battery specifying Samsung 25R cells from electrobikeworld.com. Found out afterwards UPP makes the packs for them. It didn't stand the test of time and I suspect counterfeit cells are the reason it wore out so badly and for no reason.
 
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Back to the well. Do any readers have experience with UPP batteries? (Unit Power Pack is the company name). Reputable supplier? Feedback GREATLY appreciated!
If you want one of the best batteries and made in the US, look at the Luna Wolf. They cost more but they are genuine, high performance packs, bar none !
 
They're terrible. I'm skipping the long story in favor of the short one. there are people who post about how much money they save. If you've been around the block a bit you've seen more than a few horror stories though.

Also: I bought a custom battery specifying Samsung 25R cells from electrobikeworld.com. Found out afterwards UPP makes the packs for them. It didn't stand the test of time and I suspect counterfeit cells are the reason it wore out so badly and for no reason.
Yeah, that checks out. Thanks!
 
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