DIY inquiry from those with homebuilt e-bikes

What month and year were those purchases! Was the support fella Louis?
oh man... only way I can even guess is to go back in to my Google Photos and get ballparks based on the pic dates. I know Seb helped me out a couple times, and I have crossed paths with him and chatted informally over on FB. That was probably the Super Bowl one. Likely Jan/Feb 2016. The Cyclone happened in the middle of 2017. I remember cuz I was hit by a car on the bike in December of that year. The 120mm BBSHD... looks like second half of 2017, with the other HD in March of 2018. Not a clue on names other than remembering the one.
 
@Alanzo,
Why do you want a full suspension for a bike that will be mostly for roads? They add a lot of mechanical complexity and weight plus the effective chain length is constantly changing and it is harder to mount a secondary motor mount on the chain stay. They also tend toward wide, so that the chain line is often out of whack. I did a 35-mile ride today with a Cube, Specialized and Ultra. My DYI was fastest and returned with a greater percentage of its battery remaining. It is the blue one below.
If you are going for a Bafang mid-drive you will want one of these ShortyHacks. I will also post it in Show Us a Tool. With the motor mounted on the upside down bike, mark the BB shell with the motor all the way against the frame in the forward position. Cut a nine sided clock face into the left side of the bottom bracket shell every 40-degrees. The mounting plate will secure into the cut lines and will not be prone to wiggle under load. Bafangs want to twist. The TSDZ2 cannot be used on full suspension bikes because the secondary mount attaches to the chain stays.
PedalUma,
You may be right with non dual. Front is a necessity. Roads I'm riding on are 50% crap surface. When I look at the Stromer it's not rear suspended. Have not noticed any handling complaints with that bike design.

I seriously like you blue bike for the direct approach. Really nice! No overkill with the build. Not sure if I am going to go with a mid drive setup as I currently have a mid drive. Perhaps rear hub motor so I can learn the pros and cons of both mid drive and rear hub systems.

The motor limit is what's frustrating me with the current bike. Just need 2-3 mph above the current limit. There are stretches of the routes I am loosing avg as I should be above 28 and use to do it with no e-bikes. Too much resistance pedaling a non e assist 60+ lb. bike on the highway shoulder with cracked asphalt and headwind. I may end up installing a dongle to raise the limit 3 more mph but if I blow the controller I'm screwed considering how difficult it is to get replacement parts for production bikes. May leave it as is with the goal to DIY bike @ e-assist limit of 31. Will be beneficial if I can get the bike to weigh less than what I have . Not sure its possible due to battery weight. At times I am riding with 2 500W batteries on the bike and 2 on the rear rack. Swop the batteries @ 15% level. Only takes a couple minutes. I need large battery capacity due to the distances and avg I am riding.
 
PedalUma,
You may be right with non dual. Front is a necessity. Roads I'm riding on are 50% crap surface. When I look at the Stromer it's not rear suspended. Have not noticed any handling complaints with that bike design.

I seriously like you blue bike for the direct approach. Really nice! No overkill with the build. Not sure if I am going to go with a mid drive setup as I currently have a mid drive. Perhaps rear hub motor so I can learn the pros and cons of both mid drive and rear hub systems.

The motor limit is what's frustrating me with the current bike. Just need 2-3 mph above the current limit. There are stretches of the routes I am loosing avg as I should be above 28 and use to do it with no e-bikes. Too much resistance pedaling a non e assist 60+ lb. bike on the highway shoulder with cracked asphalt and headwind. I may end up installing a dongle to raise the limit 3 more mph but if I blow the controller I'm screwed considering how difficult it is to get replacement parts for production bikes. May leave it as is with the goal to DIY bike @ e-assist limit of 31. Will be beneficial if I can get the bike to weigh less than what I have . Not sure its possible due to battery weight. At times I am riding with 2 500W batteries on the bike and 2 on the rear rack. Swop the batteries @ 15% level. Only takes a couple minutes. I need large battery capacity due to the distances and avg I am riding.
What tires are you riding? There are other way to get to where you want besides over-clocking the motor. Man those Super Moto-X tires are fast, particularly on broken pavement. Look at 'Contending with Wind and Hills,' for aero tips and pedaling techniques. One pro technique boosts power like crazy. It feels like swimming in a lap pool with scuba fins.
 
PedalUma,
You may be right with non dual. Front is a necessity. Roads I'm riding on are 50% crap surface. When I look at the Stromer it's not rear suspended. Have not noticed any handling complaints with that bike design.

I seriously like you blue bike for the direct approach. Really nice! No overkill with the build. Not sure if I am going to go with a mid drive setup as I currently have a mid drive. Perhaps rear hub motor so I can learn the pros and cons of both mid drive and rear hub systems.

The motor limit is what's frustrating me with the current bike. Just need 2-3 mph above the current limit. There are stretches of the routes I am loosing avg as I should be above 28 and use to do it with no e-bikes. Too much resistance pedaling a non e assist 60+ lb. bike on the highway shoulder with cracked asphalt and headwind. I may end up installing a dongle to raise the limit 3 more mph but if I blow the controller I'm screwed considering how difficult it is to get replacement parts for production bikes. May leave it as is with the goal to DIY bike @ e-assist limit of 31. Will be beneficial if I can get the bike to weigh less than what I have . Not sure its possible due to battery weight. At times I am riding with 2 500W batteries on the bike and 2 on the rear rack. Swop the batteries @ 15% level. Only takes a couple minutes. I need large battery capacity due to the distances and avg I am riding.
Absolutely, get a rear geared hub, you will love it, Be sure to get a kit with a KT controller, very easy to squeeze every ounce of power out of the kit.
 
What tires are you riding? There are other way to get to where you want besides over-clocking the motor. Man those Super Moto-X tires are fast, particularly on broken pavement. Look at 'Contending with Wind and Hills,' for aero tips and pedaling techniques. One pro technique boosts power like crazy. It feels like swimming in a lap pool with scuba fins.
Super Moto X @ 45 psi. I am not sure my rims can accommodate Vee Speedster 27.5 X 3.0. I'd have to scrap the fenders which were quite useful with the rain yesterday. There is no vast selection of low rolling resistance tires for 27.5 X 2.4 as most are made for gravel or off-road. Do not want to go with a narrower tire on a 70+ lb. bike loaded with batteries. Have to go with rims for a DIY that will allow a wider selection of tires for road use.

I do have some
 
I wasnt sure I would like the outcome of a DIY ebike as many I see on endless sphere are cobbled together and until just recently EBR wasnt really a DIY site.

I also already had 3 perfectly functional well integrated ebikes but in the end my DIY tendencies couldnt be ignored.

When I say I researched, I mean I "really" researched.

I didnt mention my TSDZ2 experience in late 2018/early 2019 which I just jumped into, putting on the opensource software myself and even modding the software. I think I read all the TSDZ2 stuff on endless sphere (like every single post) at least 5 times and even took notes of post# for issues, In the end my TSDZ2 experience wasnt good as bearing failures caused issues at less than 1k miles so I scrapped the project.

I did to a BBS02 conversion in early 2018 and never really liked it (default PAS with a few adjustments) and sold it.

So two DIY failures.

I really wanted a torque sensing setup and researched every single aspect/potential issue. I also didnt think a hub drive would be the best but kept researching(and re-researching) it anyways. I finally just took the plunge on the only system that met my criteria (Grin GMAC, phaserunner, CA3, erider torque sensor) and figured I would document it for others as I have done on me DIY GMAC thread. Nobody else had documented this.

That year of research also included BBSHD research(pretty much researching every single BBSHD build I could find).

I was about to do a second DIY gmac build as all the research(and experience from the first gmac build) said it would be the best for me and just decide to throw a wrench in the works and try a BBSHD.

In the end, the BBSHD was a super easy install on my surly troll frame. Perfect chain alignment.
As you have noted, only a limited number of torque sensor PAS DIY kits are on the market with just Tongsheng offering the easy bolt-on Bafang installation experience. I found that another torque sensing DIY kit seems to have evolved into a viable option in the last six months or so, namely the CYC pro gen 2 kit, available

https://www.cycmotor.com/shop

direct from HongKong/Shenzhen, or

https://www.electrifybike.com/pages/cyc-motors-main-page

from their Utah distributor.

Note there is a certain amount of risk in going this route. Although this motor design seems to have been around for many years in various incarnations, it’s had several teething problems involving controller electronics and their surface magnet rotor design. In this last iteration they say they’ve finally achieved a sufficiently robust rotor design and have punted on their proprietary controller by collaborating with ASI to adapt two off the shelf controllers as per:


What the exact corporate relationship between GNG and CYC is I don’t know; Cyclone seems to be the exclusive branding Luna has arranged with GNG for their standard product line, while the CYC branding seems to be a more upscale line option. Although I ordered the motor directly from Hong Kong (I wanted the brass planet gear option), the payee on the credit card slip was listed as GNG. The battery, charger and GRIN triple bob bracket were ordered from Electrify in Utah with everything ordered arriving in a timely manner.

The donor bike is a KHS 17 inch frame fat bike which a LBS happened to have in stock and somewhat “on sale” when I went looking for something to ride 3 or 4 years ago not having been on a bike in about 60 years. I naively thought I could ride it through the snow here in Minnesota but gave up on that Idea after one attempt. Then the year after I got the fat pedal bike I discovered e bikes and have since bought two ( a Frey CC and a Priority Current), both torque sensing mid drives. So to get more use out of the now not much ridden Fat Bike, I decided to convert it and add it as the n plus 3 to my e bike stable to have a wide range of bike tire widths and drive train personalities.

Installation was straight forward with the hardest part removing the old bottom bracket cartridge bearing. The torque sensor PAS works well with power easily modulated by pedal feel at very low speeds needed to navigate around dog walkers and to summit steep wet grassy hills without mishap. Although the motor looks as if it’s escaped from a sewing machine, it feels more powerful than my Bafang Ultra CC, albeit way more noisy even with the brass gear option. Interestingly it seems Luna used to sell an assembled version of this same KHS bike with a BBSHD.
cadence motor installed.
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EmX_NpEOL4EFqCI1JClC62-__F6-ABxT2Os_oIjHuABkX37vStW5TfZpzrPNb74cS6JuMfVVRUq8UTYQJqb3EtdK2UrfAx0cHfEXKZn0PeXHpa3V5CqHbbVs58c-xykmDBsTIQw
15aCOCMII-Re-Dd5xJLMLo14AzElEIH4BgTMFyN3CPFn7k_7-i4R4CuJzaGAjt-kbZra-n1nPasBdfM-NbYmN7VLrlTNovv4gV_i-sC_iUvK8AGyPwYnY1wOthxQfWwSQSqq9G8
U0UzuGRGVY2-oNqAHXGHxe50SW_AewEGN1PhzJgFtJypG_ERJEopWYykdIjVB1i39t3SpRl4l2QuMoPEoHKtyVQLVTt1qsQIhlMZXBqJDGpgsGh_Uy6b1GrtMrIwgAYefLIyLPI
 
Note there is a certain amount of risk in going this route. Although this motor design seems to have been around for many years in various incarnations, it’s had several teething problems involving controller electronics and their surface magnet rotor design. In this last iteration they say they’ve finally achieved a sufficiently robust rotor design and have punted on their proprietary controller by collaborating with ASI to adapt two off the shelf controllers as per:

What the exact corporate relationship between GNG and CYC is I don’t know; Cyclone seems to be the exclusive branding Luna has arranged with GNG for their standard product line, while the CYC branding seems to be a more upscale line option.
Owning a Cyc gen1 myself, I would say this option is absolutely one that should only be undertaken by a DIY builder who is comfortable with an ongoing project. While I would agree that the beta release that was Cyc's v1 retail product has largely been cleaned up... it still has issues. Particularly with the ASI controllers cutting out intermittently. It remains to be seen if this is solely a problem with higher powered setups. I suggest joining the Cyc Owners Group on Facebook and just lurking and watching. Myself personally, I didn't even bother trying to get the manufacturer's controller to work and instead went with an ERT-programmed BAC 800. This was long before Cyc decided to go ASI themselves. But now it seems the 855 and 2000 controllers Cyc is using have some issues inside of them that only 3rd party programmers have found a way around (my 800 does not cut out, ever... but PAS has died).

It seems its always something with these motors. Hence my recommendation that a buyer only delve into one if they enjoy working on their bike.

GnG and Cyc are the same company. As for the Cyclone, the ones GnG Electric are selling are actually unbranded clone motors which they have sourced for what they sell as a Cyclone. (there are BBSHD clones, too... and Bafang cloned someone else's drive to make the original BBS01). GnG spiffs up the exterior with better mounting and fit/finish - and reportedly the controller (!). In particular their mounting arms and crossbraces are meant to cure the problem-since-forever flexy Cyclone mounts from the genuine Cyclone manufacturer.

Speaking of which, this is the original Cyclone:

https://www.cyclone-tw.com/

Look in the store section and you will see the standard-issue Cyclone, the Mini and the 6kw monster. These are what Luna buys and imports to the States. Same with Sick Bike Parts and probably others. They have spiffed up their web site quite a bit recently, but these are the originals in all their unrefined glory.
 
@Alanzo,
Why do you want a full suspension for a bike that will be mostly for roads? They add a lot of mechanical complexity and weight plus the effective chain length is constantly changing and it is harder to mount a secondary motor mount on the chain stay. They also tend toward wide, so that the chain line is often out of whack. I did a 35-mile ride today with a Cube, Specialized and Ultra. My DYI was fastest and returned with a greater percentage of its battery remaining. It is the blue one below.
If you are going for a Bafang mid-drive you will want one of these ShortyHacks. I will also post it in Show Us a Tool. With the motor mounted on the upside down bike, mark the BB shell with the motor all the way against the frame in the forward position. Cut a nine sided clock face into the left side of the bottom bracket shell every 40-degrees. The mounting plate will secure into the cut lines and will not be prone to wiggle under load. Bafangs want to twist. The TSDZ2 cannot be used on full suspension bikes because the secondary mount attaches to the chain stays.
Looks fun, PedalUma. What tires are you using on that drop-bar Chisel? Looks like 2"/50mm wide knobbies? I'm deciding on tire width for my own lightweight drop-bar GMAC conversion, 42mm or 50mm wide
 
Looks fun, PedalUma. What tires are you using on that drop-bar Chisel? Looks like 2"/50mm wide knobbies? I'm deciding on tire width for my own lightweight drop-bar GMAC conversion, 42mm or 50mm wide
That bike is a blast. Those are Big Apple 60's on 700c rims. The Chisel was an air fork mountain bike with extra-wide flat bars. Those are now Condor II bars from SOMA with Skyline gel tape from BikeSmart. I had to mill the frame to fit the motor and did internal wiring. It is a pain but worth the extra effort. That bike is doing a group ride this week in the Marin Headlands. The pricy bikes like to draft it.
Now I am back to working on a mid-drive recumbent with three chains and a rear suspension.
 
That bike is a blast. Those are Big Apple 60's on 700c rims. The Chisel was an air fork mountain bike with extra-wide flat bars. Those are now Condor II bars from SOMA with Skyline gel tape from BikeSmart. I had to mill the frame to fit the motor and did internal wiring. It is a pain but worth the extra effort. That bike is doing a group ride this week in the Marin Headlands. The pricy bikes like to draft it.
Now I am back to working on a mid-drive recumbent with three chains and a rear suspension.
PedalUma,
What did you mill or alter with your frame to get the motor to fit? Was it something you were able to do with hand tools or did it require a vertical mill or precision jigs. I am always interested in seeing how someone did a frame modification to get a component to work.
 
The BB was too wide for a TSDZ2 so I fit it using files and a grinding tool on a drill. I took it down by 5mm. I also needed to expand the through frame cable and hose port at the BB to re-route avoiding a crimp. It is just a matter of fitting and checking again and again. I did not need to do this when it was an HD. That lasted three weeks. Those beasts eat drivetrains fast and it was not fun after the initial thrill. Ghost pedaling the Bafang was kind'a dumb, so it went to a disabled person. The little 350W torque sensor is so much better and I was able to drop battery weight. I dropped it from 11-sp Sram to 9-sp Microshift so it can have more robust side plates on the KMC chain. Now it climbs like crazy. A guy with an 98-pound Ultra had to walk it up one section of Sonoma Mountain I rode up, meeting him at the top of that leg. The photo is from Sonoma Mountain with a view of the Petaluma River and San Francisco the day of that ride.
 

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"I am hoping to build a bike that will allow me to pedal at a 30mph pace when I have to deal vehicles approaching from the rear. I live in a heavy vehicle traffic area and need access to tuning lanes at stop lights when there is a limited gap in traffic. Battery range has to be minimum of 60 mi and over, 100 mi at a lower assist level. I currently ride a Delite and take extra batteries if I ride over 80 miles. What ever I build has to be set up to carry additional batteries if needed."

O.P. and I were discussing the above offline, but I'll reply in the open forum. By the way, he's in fairly flat country, but really busy urban traffic.

I personally don't need to ride in heavy traffic at high speeds. The above calls for a motorcycle. You don't really want to slice/dice with cars on any bicycle.

If I were to build a bike to run that kind of a gauntlet, I'd choose a big direct drive motor, say 1500W, I'd look for a big steel cruiser bike or a cargo bike with disk brakes. I'm not sure the cruiser exists, but a welder could add the caliper tabs. Might want a 72V controller, and four 36V batteries, running two in series and two spares, if you really want to run sustained 30 mph. Otherwise 52V ought to be enough, I think pedal assist with that kind of power would seem ridiculous, and also hard to pull off. With any effort, you're at 20 mph..
 
I have commuted on a non-electric bike in that kind of traffic. If it is not safe to move into the left turn lane, I go to the corner and push the walk button at the crosswalk. Yes, you will have to cross again to get into the correct lane. It is worth the extra minute or two. Many motorists are aggressive or distracted and it is not worth your life even if you have the right of way.
 
"I am hoping to build a bike that will allow me to pedal at a 30mph pace when I have to deal vehicles approaching from the rear. I live in a heavy vehicle traffic area and need access to tuning lanes at stop lights when there is a limited gap in traffic. Battery range has to be minimum of 60 mi and over, 100 mi at a lower assist level. I currently ride a Delite and take extra batteries if I ride over 80 miles. What ever I build has to be set up to carry additional batteries if needed."

O.P. and I were discussing the above offline, but I'll reply in the open forum. By the way, he's in fairly flat country, but really busy urban traffic.

I personally don't need to ride in heavy traffic at high speeds. The above calls for a motorcycle. You don't really want to slice/dice with cars on any bicycle.

If I were to build a bike to run that kind of a gauntlet, I'd choose a big direct drive motor, say 1500W, I'd look for a big steel cruiser bike or a cargo bike with disk brakes. I'm not sure the cruiser exists, but a welder could add the caliper tabs. Might want a 72V controller, and four 36V batteries, running two in series and two spares, if you really want to run sustained 30 mph. Otherwise 52V ought to be enough, I think pedal assist with that kind of power would seem ridiculous, and also hard to pull off. With any effort, you're at 20 mph..
Thanks for your input HarryS. Keep in mind its not 30 mph full time. Just when needed to open a gap ahead of traffic to enter a turning lane or to stay ahead of traffic when exiting a hwy. I get a jump at a series of lights on no shoulder road with very limited time to exit before traffic from the rear catches up. 30+ speed is a necessity for that section of the route.

I looked at the rear hub options at Grin Technologies but I do not have a clue what to specifically consider including the options. As an example when I select GMAC there are options for torque arms, spokes, cassettes, battery model, V3 cycle analyst, CA mounting bracket, CA3 AUX adjust and power switch, Peddle sensor, Throttle choice, E-brake cutoff, include disc rotor....

From an e-bike rookie perspective its component overload. I have no idea what I am looking at or how to refine selection for an rear hub motor bike. I wish there was a book to explain step by step instructions. I may have to spend time studying the menu links at Grin. Wish I could see what other people in my local area have built. Really helps to see a DIY build in person and ask questions to the builder.
 
Thanks for your input HarryS. Keep in mind its not 30 mph full time. Just when needed to open a gap ahead of traffic to enter a turning lane or to stay ahead of traffic when exiting a hwy. I get a jump at a series of lights on no shoulder road with very limited time to exit before traffic from the rear catches up. 30+ speed is a necessity for that section of the route.

I looked at the rear hub options at Grin Technologies but I do not have a clue what to specifically consider including the options. As an example when I select GMAC there are options for torque arms, spokes, cassettes, battery model, V3 cycle analyst, CA mounting bracket, CA3 AUX adjust and power switch, Peddle sensor, Throttle choice, E-brake cutoff, include disc rotor....

From an e-bike rookie perspective its component overload. I have no idea what I am looking at or how to refine selection for an rear hub motor bike. I wish there was a book to explain step by step instructions. I may have to spend time studying the menu links at Grin. Wish I could see what other people in my local area have built. Really helps to see a DIY build in person and ask questions to the builder.
Have you tried contacting Grin directly... They are probably best suited to help you answer those questions
 
You could probably just buy a 1500W kit off amazon from ebikeling. He's been selling kits out of his Chicago area warehouse for six years. He answers emails and does warranty replacements. I have bought a few geared 500W kits from him over the years. I had a problem with an LCD and he would have sent me another. He must be getting rich. The kit used to cost $220 a few years ago, and now is up 2X in price.

Then find a 48V battery that can supply 30A continuous. Gives you a 20 mph ebike that can hit over 30 mph. You'll have to figure out how to stop it.
 
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Thanks for your input HarryS. Keep in mind its not 30 mph full time. Just when needed to open a gap ahead of traffic to enter a turning lane or to stay ahead of traffic when exiting a hwy. I get a jump at a series of lights on no shoulder road with very limited time to exit before traffic from the rear catches up. 30+ speed is a necessity for that section of the route.

I looked at the rear hub options at Grin Technologies but I do not have a clue what to specifically consider including the options. As an example when I select GMAC there are options for torque arms, spokes, cassettes, battery model, V3 cycle analyst, CA mounting bracket, CA3 AUX adjust and power switch, Peddle sensor, Throttle choice, E-brake cutoff, include disc rotor....

From an e-bike rookie perspective its component overload. I have no idea what I am looking at or how to refine selection for an rear hub motor bike. I wish there was a book to explain step by step instructions. I may have to spend time studying the menu links at Grin. Wish I could see what other people in my local area have built. Really helps to see a DIY build in person and ask questions to the builder.
It's true that Grin Tech are very helpful with inquiries. I'm an e-bike rookie too, and here's how I learned my way around this GMAC kit:
1. You start with the hub (and choose a winding and that's a question people here will help you with, but for your purposes the standard 10T would probably be best.) You need a controller and display (Grin's display shares some of the controller functions) so you'd get the V3 Cycle Analyst and Phaserunner/Baserunner. For the GMAC I think those choices are pretty much baked in for the kit. The GMAC + CA3 (latest cycleanalyst) + Phaserunner/Baserunner (don't recall which), those three are the basic kit. Next you choose a battery unless you're sourcing that elsewhere and lots of people here can advise you on that. I chose Grin's 52V/~15a battery. You'll need a charger that matches this battery.
2. Choosing a pedaling sensor is pretty easy if you know your bike and what it might need to fit. It's mainly a matter of deciding between torque sensing bottom bracket or a cadence sensor that fits round the BB/crank interface.
3. Choosing what goes on your handlebar--choosing the cockpit--might the next step. That means which clamp do you want for the throttle bit, and which clamp for the power switch, and which clamp for installing the CA3 display?
4. The rest is mostly details for the wheel-build, if you're having them build the hub into a wheel. From my point of view, it's good they offer these because their prices are very good for rim, cassette, rotor, spokes, build. (GMAC using a cassette not a freewheel is a big plus for me of Grin's version of the MAC hub.)
5. Lots of people here on EBR say they do fine without the brake cut-off, so it may be fine to think of that as optional. I've learned on EBR some reasons to have a brake cut-off or not. Since I'm still in learning mode I decided to try install one to try it out. There are easy ways to include one if you have cable disc brakes and are good with the flat-bar levers that come with a cut-off built in. I'm particular about the drop-bar hydro levers I'm using so I'm going to be creative retro-fitting a push-style cut-off. Part of the fun of doing a conversion I think.
 
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