Disadvantage of integrated mid drives that I don't see mentioned

[like2lean]

So glad I saw this post, it's my exact situation! Just bought my wife a Yamaha cross connect to help her keep up, but now she passes me with our other ebike friends...my turn! The yamaha is a great bike and I like the middrive TS system. I have a new MTB that I love so would like to convert but the only middrive torque sensor I see is the TSDZ2, I can't see dropping another 3-5k MINIMUM for a decent replacement so my options seem very limited.

Emgx and linklemming, I value both your input and experiences as different as they are. To have such opposing views of the same motor seems one must have been far better out of the box? I like how quiet the Yami is, some of the vids I watch the TSDZ2 sounds loud! What brands did each of you start with? EMGX it sounds like yours was programed open source before it was sent to you?

 

[FlatSix911]

So glad I saw this post, it's my exact situation! Just bought my wife a Yamaha cross connect to help her keep up, but now she passes me with our other ebike friends...my turn! The yamaha is a great bike and I like the middrive TS system. I have a new MTB that I love so would like to convert but the only middrive torque sensor I see is the TSDZ2, I can't see dropping another 3-5k MINIMUM for a decent replacement so my options seem very limited.

Emgx and linklemming, I value both your input and experiences as different as they are. To have such opposing views of the same motor seems one must have been far better out of the box? I like how quiet the Yami is, some of the vids I watch the TSDZ2 sounds loud! What brands did each of you start with? EMGX it sounds like yours was programed open source before it was sent to you?

Welcome to EBR!
Glad to hear that your wife likes the Yamaha mid-drive... it's hard to beat for the natural ride feel and reliability.

 

[shiruba]

I guess I’m one of the few lucky ones then. I have just over 2500 miles on my Shimano E8000 with zero issues. It has been flawless...... Even the chain is original and still in spec. I feel bad for all the other mid-drive owners who must be struggling to keep theirs up and running....

Hmm a decent motor should easily last over 5000km. I have two Ebikes with well over that which have no issue at all, so I think that should be petty standard. The motor is an expensive part, having to change it after 2500 miles would be pretty expensive!

As for the chain, you probably should change that to see sure it doesn't stretch and damage your gears.

 

[McCorby]

Hmm a decent motor should easily last over 5000km. I have two Ebikes with well over that which have no issue at all, so I think that should be petty standard. The motor is an expensive part, having to change it after 2500 miles would be pretty expensive!

As for the chain, you probably should change that to see sure it doesn't stretch and damage your gears.

I did not imply that 2500 miles was an extraordinary acomplishment. I merely reported that mine has that many miles with no issues thus far. Yes, I fully expect it to go thousands more with no issues. One forum member has 40,000 kilometers on his Shimano E8000. That certainly is impressive in my book!

Shimano E8000 Drive Unit 40k Service

My Shimano E8000 drive unit is approaching 40,0000km and I think it’s time to do some preventative maintenance on the gearing and moving parts Anyone know of a suitable grease I should use I’m thinking something lithium based?

electricbikereview.com

As I previously noted in this thread, I have measured the chain wear and it is still within spec, but will likely replace it at some point next year.

 

[Roxlimn]

My own PW Yamaha Giant Syncdrive gave up the ghost at about 14000 km - so a bit short of 9000 miles.

 

[EMGX]

So glad I saw this post, it's my exact situation! Just bought my wife a Yamaha cross connect to help her keep up, but now she passes me with our other ebike friends...my turn! The yamaha is a great bike and I like the middrive TS system. I have a new MTB that I love so would like to convert but the only middrive torque sensor I see is the TSDZ2, I can't see dropping another 3-5k MINIMUM for a decent replacement so my options seem very limited.

Emgx and linklemming, I value both your input and experiences as different as they are. To have such opposing views of the same motor seems one must have been far better out of the box? I like how quiet the Yami is, some of the vids I watch the TSDZ2 sounds loud! What brands did each of you start with? EMGX it sounds like yours was programed open source before it was sent to you?

It is curious to me also how widely perceptions vary between different individuals. I can only give you my impressions. Having ridden with the same TS on two different bikes (tested on a Dahon Jack and then installed on my wife's Dahon Briza) I found the motor to be very quiet in actual use, often imperceptible. I was concerned about the noise heard on youtube videos but that has not been my experience, maybe some of those had the louder metal gear or the mic pickup on the recording device used made it sound louder than it really is? Overall it seems quieter to me that the Yamaha PW-SE motor on my BH gravel bike. It also seems to perform at least as well as the Yamaha PW-SE, the torque sensing is smooth and natural and the assist is strong rated at 80nm compared to the yamaha 70nm. My yamaha powered bike is lighter with larger diameter, thinner, smooth, higher pressure tires and with different gearing so it is difficult to directly compare the power of assist but those peak numbers seem like they might be an accurate comparison to me.

I got mine from eco-ebike.com, they indicate that they do their own firmware programming and also have instructions for DIY programming. I have no interest or need to program the firmware myself. They do have different parameters than some other sellers, mine is 36v 500w 80nm - I got the 36v version because I already had a 36v battery but if I hadn't I would have ordered the 48v 750w 100nm version because my wife needs all the help she can get.

I wouldn't hesitate to convert a regular pedal bike with the TS, with the caveat that you should check your current chainline and compare to the chainline you would get with the TS. the eco bike web site lists the chainline with standard dished 42t chainring as well as using flat chainrings (and a double chainring). For someone more concerned about "Q factor" the TS add on (or even Bafang) might not be a good choice but for me it is excellent. I've never ridden a Bafang mid drive but other than a "ultra" version I understand they don't have torque sensing, which is a requirement for me/my wife and specs I have seen list them as a couple pounds heavier which I would not want.

 

[EMGX]

My own PW Yamaha Giant Syncdrive gave up the ghost at about 14000 km - so a bit short of 9000 miles.

Were you able to get it repaired, or did you replace the motor (under warranty?) or were you stuck with an expensive unusable motor specific bike frame?

 

[Roxlimn]

Not under warranty. It's over 14k km and 2 years of use so both over warranty. I'm buying a new motor and slapping onto the frame.

 

[Lumr]

Currently I have a Yamaha PW-SE mid drive gravel bike and a Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid drive on my wife's bike. From what I read mid drives, in general, seem to be reliable and long lasting. But what happens when one breaks down (there are plenty of anecdotes on this forum) ? The motor alone can cost $1000, not including any peripherals or labor for installation, parts might not be available for repair or be too complex for DIY or excessively expensive to have professional repairs done. Down the line motor design can change which can make the bike frame useless if the mounting points or other form factors don't fit. I have regular pedal bikes that are decades old but standard generic parts are still available, it seems unlikely that the same will be true for mid drive frames which are designed for specific proprietary motors as well as batteries. One could pay thousands for a nice mid drive ebike and in not too many years end up with a unusable bike. I like my Yamaha powered gravel bike a lot but most probably wouldn't have bought it (even at the greatly discounted price I paid) if I had been aware of the TS mid drive. I'm just a recreational road/gravel path rider but the TS seems as powerful and refined as the Yamaha, cost less than $650 including peripherals and the battery and can be easily and quickly removed from a bike to return it to it's regular analog state. There are some potential fitment issues on some frames, chainline and chainring considerations etc. but in the long run it, or similar add on kits, could be a better solution than much more expensive bikes with frames made for proprietary motors. Especially for purely recreational road and path riders - which probably covers the majority of ebike riders.

I just installed the TSDZ2 on my Trek Mariner 6. Works well with the latest Open Source V1.1 however I wish there were more videos online to support the installations like there are for the Bafang. I've already installed 2 Bafangs and those are rockets but not torque sensing. I get 37mph on my Catrick with the Bafang using the thumb throttle on a level road. The other is on my older Santa Cruz Blur. Anyway, my TS installed easily and now I have to delve into the Torque calibrations. Wish there was a good video for that.

 

[kmccune]

I agree which is why, while I wouldn't repeat the purchase, I don't have any regrets regarding the purchase given what I knew then. Still if the Yamaha drive goes seriously belly up it would be a shame if I didn't have any use for the frame.

Hub motor, IMO, "because a good frame is a terrible thing to waste".

 

[Handlebars]

Unfortunately, or fortunately, I have too many bikes as it is and would have gladly converted one of them instead, like I did for my wife's bike. I tend to hang on to things that work well for me. My 17yo F350 diesel is approaching 250,000 miles, I don't see any good reason to replace it yet.

And very good reasons why NOT to replace with new trucks having so many plastic junk parts...even down to radiators and all kinds of crap ... stuff that you can't fix in normal "old fashioned" ways.

 

[EMGX]

And very good reasons why NOT to replace with new trucks having so many plastic junk parts...even down to radiators and all kinds of crap ... stuff that you can't fix in normal "old fashioned" ways.

I've used my truck to haul a camper, over 3,000 pounds of road gravel in the bed and other landscaping material for my yard, as a daily driver and a few times to pull tree stumps. But when it finally dies I won't be buying another truck. It is supposed to have a 500,000 mile capable engine so I hope to have it for quite some time. Where I live cars/trucks don't rust, they just wear out.

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Still running my 2013 'trashcan' Mac, It's still upgradeable for software. My iPad 3 is still running great, battery still last several hours, I haven't upgraded the software on it for years, I use it only for special things.

My phone is an original iPhone-5 SE, its still upgradable, but it is being replaced this weekend with an iPhone 12 Mini. The 5-SE is subjected to signal issues due to cell phone infrastructure changes, and probably because I got it very wet while caught in a serious downpour while on a bike trip. The battery on the 5-SE was also not much good it's best buddy was a slim battery bank. Starting with the 10XS (now 12 Pro Max) I used the larger phones for photography (no SIM) while keeping the SE for a phone. I have several iPads of different generations and have given away several that are still loved.

In general I would say Apple products age extremely well for electronic and software devices. They have their limitations with hardware upgrades, but that is known at the time of purchase. I'm pretty sure my new MacBook Air M1 will have a long life even though it will be obsolete in 3 years.

I know many people that keep old Apple devices, so people saying that everyone upgrades every year is just not looking at the big picture.

I concur. I still have a late-2008 Macbook that I've installed about 10 fresh OS iterations since I bought it new and increased the ram, went to an SSD and replaced the battery. I finally bought a replacement for it only because the 2008 hardware would not support some of Apple's changes over the years. Hell, no one could possibly anticipate what features computer companies would come up with down the road?
I cannot say the same about iPhones. Once  removes support for devices you lose the ability to access the latest and greatest SECURITY updates that come with new IOS releases. (I recall support for the iPhone 6 series of phones ends this summer) That's why you shouldn't keep older phones.
Sure, go to any Mac discussion group and you'll see there are any number of people that just NEED to have the newest stuff and upgrade every year. The vast majority DO NOT. CN

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Hmm a decent motor should easily last over 5000km. I have two Ebikes with well over that which have no issue at all, so I think that should be petty standard. The motor is an expensive part, having to change it after 2500 miles would be pretty expensive!

As for the chain, you probably should change that to see sure it doesn't stretch and damage your gears.

They sure ought to last at least that IMHO. You see people on here say they have had no problems at say, 2000 kms, like that's some sort of miraculous feat. WTF? That's no measure of reliability in my mind.

As far as running gear goes, I think the industry has to be headed towards belts and internal hubs on mid drives and rear hub motors will hang around. I don't want to be constantly changing chains along with the gear clusters, etc, even though I would do everything myself. I see all sorts of people here that won't even tackle repairing a simple flat. It seems there are people here that have never even ridden before. CN

 

[Handlebars]

It seems there are people here that have never even ridden before. CN

Yeah.

 

[Scarlet/Fire]

bosch dissed their generation one buyers. No parts, no batteries, no flange to convert the frames to the newer motors. My $221 geared hubmotor wore out a gear @4500 miles and I replaced it with another brand, another set of connectors, nothing compatible but the dropout width. Took 2 afternoons, would have taken 1 if I didn't have to make a new mount for the new controller. $550 for a better motor that uses 25% less watt hours on the same route. My battery is generic, too, made the mount myself out of aluminum angle. Plus I pedaled the worn out hubmotor out to summer camp 7 miles & home 3 days later 27 miles with no drag. Just the motor didn't pull anymore.

We can always replace a failed hub motor (so far 4K no problem) the new motor may only be $200! - Mid drives are great and will get you up giant hills! But we know that on a regular old bike the bottom bracket does fail/ it makes me think/ mid drive failures =$$$$ Hey-if you can afford it cool- but in general,it seems a hub will keep you rolling much cheaper,a major factor for a lot of us! Cheers!

 

[Handlebars]

We can always replace a failed hub motor (so far 4K no problem) the new motor may only be $200! - Mid drives are great and will get you up giant hills! But we know that on a regular old bike the bottom bracket does fail/ it makes me think/ mid drive failures =$$$$ Hey-if you can afford it cool- but in general,it seems a hub will keep you rolling much cheaper,a major factor for a lot of us! Cheers!

That's what deterred me from looking to DIY mid drive kits when I first began to investigate ebikes. Then I decided I better just buy a ready made, first time, rather than spend a lot more time thinking about it and buying special tools and chainrings and so on and so forth. From there I had to go buy a hub drive ready made for sure.

 

[EMGX]

That's what deterred me from looking to DIY mid drive kits when I first began to investigate ebikes. Then I decided I better just buy a ready made, first time, rather than spend a lot more time thinking about it and buying special tools and chainrings and so on and so forth. From there I had to go buy a hub drive ready made for sure.

It all depends. There are some ready made bikes that can't be beat by a DIY. One example I saw posted about is the Ariel Rideal at $999, that package would be hard to beat.
On the other hand I just bought my wife a Biria Easy Boarding bike for $740, it seems a little overpriced for what you get but the frame is unique and what she wanted. They charge $2250 for a 36v 350w front hub version with a 13ah battery. I have a 48v 500w geared rear hub kit that cost $280 plus battery, savings of $1,000 for an afternoon of puttering in the garage and get a better setup.

 

[Handlebars]

It all depends. There are some ready made bikes that can't be beat by a DIY. One example I saw posted about is the Ariel Rideal at $999, that package would be hard to beat.
On the other hand I just bought my wife a Biria Easy Boarding bike for $740, it seems a little overpriced for what you get but the frame is unique and what she wanted. They charge $2250 for a 36v 350w front hub version with a 13ah battery. I have a 48v 500w geared rear hub kit that cost $280 plus battery, savings of $1,000 for an afternoon of puttering in the garage and get a better setup.

For sure some people, me a few years ago with a nice abike to convert, or even now I'd try it if I had a nice a-bike to convert to hub motor.

 

[Catalyzt]

Very new here, and very interested in this discussion, because I am now in New E-Bike Purchase Indecision Hell. I'm not seriously OCD, but when I get into a situation like this, I just take leave of my senses, dirty dishes stack up in the sink, I only break my online spec-comparison trance for work or riding or hanging out with the dogs. And mid-drive vs hub is a big part of my disorder right now.

I'm a huge fan of DIY low-power hub kits, because I have one and it's exceeded my wildest expectations. I'm 63 and and have health problems, but in my own strange way I'm very fit, and my longer rides (Hiltopper, 250W hub, tiny battery, mid-90's Trek 930, 40 pounds, Shimano MegaRange cluster) can be 16 miles with 1,200 feet of vertical, including the occasional 15% grade, and top speeds of around 32 MPH going downhill. The range anxiety is a bummer, though, and I'd like to explore further from home and not constantly be staring at my GPS to figure out the best route so my battery doesn't die on the way home.

I love old, reliable tech, I still use my 2004 MacPowerbook, just used it this year to resurrect old tracks for an album I released a few months ago, one of my cars is a lightly modified 1991 Honda CRX HF that still out-handles a lot of late model cars and can get 48 MPG even with 280,000 miles on the odometer.

The maintenance issues with mid-drive motors are a concern for me, though I'll probably ride between 1500 and 2000 miles a year. I'm looking for under 48 pounds, full suspension and under 2,500, and at least 20 miles of range which (considering availability) kind of limits me to two very different bikes: The Nikreeka Homie with 250 Watts hub drive (which can pass for a Class II if I remove the throttle and use the smaller battery, and is definitely Class III with a larger battery VS. the Motobecane Ultra E-Adventure with the Shimano E5000. The former will manage these hills but I'll probably have to work harder than I do with the Trek, but will probably be considerably faster on the flats and downhill even with the small battery, while the latter will be better on the hills, slower on the flats, likely not handle quite as well over 30 MPH downhill.

I'm figuring if civilization collapses and we're headed for a post-apocalyptic hell-world, the Homie will be better for maintenance, and given my history of nursing along older tech, it's probably a better fit for me, though I hate spending quite that much money. On the plus side, I can imagine being 67 and saying, "Well, I finally need a bigger motor" and ordering a 350, 500 or even 1000 watt replacement hub drive, plus upgrading the battery. I think the fear of the Shimano E5000 breaking down, (as well as the fact that I'm not quite capable of estimating the range with a 418Wh battery on a bike that could be 49 pounds) would diminish my enjoyment of the bike, but maybe my even considering a CF bike from an upstart like Nireeka is really jejeune.

But I could be out of my mind-- I mean, in some new way that I don't already know about.