Disadvantage of integrated mid drives that I don't see mentioned

[vincent]

I agree with some of what Ravi is saying but I also run older iPhones , macs etc and none of them were sold off or given away because they quit working, I just upgraded for whatever reason

all of my Apple stuff still works but yes it cannot all be updated...

it is true tech is changing super fastAnd for that reason alone a lot of us will be upgrading bikes etc.

i am not riding 5000 miles a year , more like 3000
But I thought that the bafang motors like the BBSO2 and HD easily last five or 10,000 miles ???
ravi knows more about all this because I’m sure he’s had all of these motors apart and seeing the quality differences on the inside etc

but it does make sense to me that even if his motors quit he will be able to just swap on another kit in 5000 miles and use the same bike and probably battery....

I am intrigued that he thinks the tsd motor is a smooth as the Yamaha, that’s pretty cool

 

[EMGX]

You won't change my mind. The Bosch powered bikes are just absolutely perfect for my riding style. The control system gives me the same performance from 100% to 2% battery capacity. The natural feel and power is just what I want. You will find plenty of proprietary mid drive haters though, so just keep on preaching for their liking.

I'm not preaching or trying to change anyone's mind. Just putting out my experience. Different priorities and choices for different people and preferences. By the way the TS torque sensing drive is very smooth and natural, comparable to the Yamaha (maybe better in some ways).

 

[linklemming]

Brose much be much better than my yamaha drive then because the 36v 500w TS is the Yamaha's equal in my experience.
I'm not that impatient, if the TS on my wife's bike needs work I'd do it.

Im not quite sure why you seem to imply that Im impatient? You have no idea about me or my capabilities, much less my 'lack of patience'.

Have you gone thru the effort of putting opensource softwrae on your TSDZ2, how about trying the TSDZ2 opensource software on a bafang 650C display.

I simply realized the TSDZ2 was meant for the garbage.

You should head over to endless sphere, lots of 'patient' guys maintaining there TSDZ2s over there.

 

[ebikemom]

You won't change my mind.

I don’t want to change anybody’s mind. I don’t think my bike tech does either. People should choose what works best for their style and needs for sure.

 

[linklemming]

I am intrigued that he thinks the tsd motor is a smooth as the Yamaha, that’s pretty cool

Im intriqued as well as that wasnt my experience (I have ridden yamaha drives and will likely own on on my next ebike).

The whole opensource project for the TSDZ2 was created to address deficiencies with the stock TSDZ2 firmware like improved torque response.

 

[EMGX]

Im intriqued as well as that wasnt my experience (I have ridden yamaha drives and will likely own on on my next ebike).

The whole opensource project for the TSDZ2 was created to address deficiencies with the stock TSDZ2 firmware like improved torque response.

I bought the kit from a US based seller who says they do the programing themselves. Maybe that is the difference. It works well so there isn't any reason for me to try to change the firmware programing. If your motor needed replaceable parts putting it in a landfill sounds impatient/impulsive to my standards, but that is just me, do whatever you want with your stuff. No need to get defensive.

 

[linklemming]

I bought the kit from a US based seller who says they do the programing themselves. Maybe that is the difference. It works well so there isn't any reason for me to try to change the firmware programing. If your motor needed replaceable parts putting it in a landfill sounds impatient/impulsive to my standards, but that is just me, do whatever you want with your stuff. No need to get defensive.

I got rid of the unit due to extensive research on multiple problems documented clearly on endless sphere. Many people over there have also abandoned their TSDZ2s and the last thing I would do is imply in any way that they were impatient/impulsive especially based off just one of their posts.......but thats just me. Judge people however you like

FWIW, I also modified the software myself for various reasons, quite a feat for an impatient person like myself

 

[Johnny]

I can understand OP's point of view. A bike is much more than just the motor or battery and it is very wasteful to get rid of a bike just because the motor needs repairs.

I don't think iphone analogy is the right one here. Smartphones were in their infancy 10 years ago and electronic components like Microprocessors used to get outdated quite fast while newer programs etc push for more processing power. However even for these devices we have come to a point that the improvements have slowed down and even a 4 year old smartphone is still sufficient for most people. Now companies like Apple are trying to find ways to push customers to replace/upgrade their phones / computers even if they don't need one.

I would think a better example here is a Fridge or an oven. You expect these things to last 5-10 years.

Ebike tech on the other hand is somewhat mature. You will not be seeing a change in brushless motors. The required processing power to drive these motors efficiently(needed for foc based control) is also not a big deal anymore. Even after 5 years most of the components of an ebike motor will still be perfectly fine and efficient. Just because the controller board went bad or a bearing is worn, having to change the whole motor is nonsense. One should be able to repair at a reasonable price.

Yamaha or any other motor is not complex at all. Overall I believe Yamaha is a better designed motor than the usual bolt on mid drives and its price is similar anyways. The problem with repairs is when one can not find a replacement part. That's why for someone who intends to keep a bike for long should consider alternatives that can be easily repaired and not rely on proprietary components.

 

[McCorby]

You won't change my mind. The Bosch powered bikes are just absolutely perfect for my riding style. The control system gives me the same performance from 100% to 2% battery capacity. The natural feel and power is just what I want. You will find plenty of proprietary mid drive haters though, so just keep on preaching for their liking.

This!

Thank you Bosch, Brose, Shimano, and Yamaha for producing ”expensive“, ”non-user serviceable“ drive units that just plain work. They’re intuitive, natural, refined, and not quirky. I have yet to ride a bike with a hub drive that even comes close. I am by no means a hub hater, and agree that they definitely have their place. But for me, no thank you to ghost pedaling, having to constantly adjust the pas level to control your speed, and the noticeable delay when you start and stop pedaling. Yes, I know there are exceptions, but in my experience they are few and far between.

I am curious as to how many hub motor fans/mid-drive haters have actually ridden a bike with one of the big four mid-drives?

 

[indianajo]

I am curious as to how many hub motor fans/mid-drive haters have actually ridden a bike with one of the big four mid-drives?

Nearest mid drive for sale is 165 miles from here. True for last 5 years. I drive only U-haul's now, no car. How great the motor of a mid-drive feels doesn't matter if it is turned off, which is most of the time I ride.
As far as fiddling with the pas, I deleted it. I deleted the lying fogged over display, too. When the headwind is bad enough to need a motor, I use the throttle 100%. When the wind is down, I pedal unpowered. Try that on a gen 2 or 3 bosch, for useless exercise. Statistics, who needs them? I have a map & a watch. My cell phone is stupid & $50, bought because the "new" battery for my old one lasted 3 months. My PC is 12 years old. My TV is a 00's computer display, updated with a $39 HDTV tuner. Go ahead, Lords of Commerce, make me buy something new every 3 years. Try harder!

 

[Dallant]

Nearest mid drive for sale is 165 miles from here. True for last 5 years. I drive only U-haul's now, no car. How great the motor of a mid-drive feels doesn't matter if it is turned off, which is most of the time I ride.
As far as fiddling with the pas, I deleted it. I deleted the lying fogged over display, too. When the headwind is bad enough to need a motor, I use the throttle 100%. When the wind is down, I pedal unpowered. Try that on a gen 2 or 3 bosch, for useless exercise. Statistics, who needs them? I have a map & a watch. My cell phone is stupid & $50, bought because the "new" battery for my old one lasted 3 months. My PC is 12 years old. My TV is a 00's computer display, updated with a $39 HDTV tuner. Go ahead, Lords of Commerce, make me buy something new every 3 years. Try harder!

Get on with your bad self!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Try harder

No reason to suffer. If I wanted to suffer, I'd still ride a traditional bike.

 

[Johnny]

Thank you Bosch, Brose, Shimano, and Yamaha for producing ”expensive“, ”non-user serviceable“ drive units that just plain work.

They don't just work. Brose have belt failure issues, Bosch has bearing issues (they even have a service kit ). "non-user serviceable" does not improve reliability in any way and is a big headache. For example you need to send the motor back for a simple belt replacement because that can't be done by the rider or a lbs.

On a side note , there are many people who own and ride both hub and mid drives but it is better to stay on topic.

 

[indianajo]

No reason to suffer. If I wanted to suffer, I'd still ride a traditional bike.

Riding with no wind doesn't hurt, not for the first 2.5 hours. Still looking for a seat softer than that selle royale respiro, the battery now will go 90 minutes longer than my hips will. Cloud9 won't fit a yuba, seatpost is wrong size.

 

[McCorby]

They don't just work. Brose have belt failure issues, Bosch has bearing issues (they even have a service kit ). "non-user serviceable" does not improve reliability in any way and is a big headache. For example you need to send the motor back for a simple belt replacement because that can't be done by the rider or a lbs.

On a side note , there are many people who own and ride both hub and mid drives but it is better to stay on topic.

I guess I’m one of the few lucky ones then. I have just over 2500 miles on my Shimano E8000 with zero issues. It has been flawless...... Even the chain is original and still in spec. I feel bad for all the other mid-drive owners who must be struggling to keep theirs up and running....

 

[FlatSix911]

I did get one of the bicyclebluebook BH gravel bikes. They had what was essentially a "Dutch auction" and I paid $1500 for it which included shipping.
At the lowest price I think buyers had to pay ~$250 for shipping and some got the base PW motor instead of the PW-SE with the PW-X display that I got. It is a nice bike.

By the way, I really dislike Apple/Mac operating systems, my worst purchases ever have been an iPhone and a MacBook pro, never again. Also not interested in Mercedes, BMW or Tesla as far as that goes, nice I'm sure but not at all worth it to me. Different choices for different people and uses. I'm just throwing this out there because I would have liked to had this info when I made my BH impulse purchase (still one of the best impulse purchases I have ever made). And also mostly because I have typed most of this thread while on an exercise bike (raining outside), when I ride a real bike the time flies by but on an exercise bike I count the minutes so a distraction is nice.

For the record, the BBB BH bikes were all shipped for $150 or available for free pickup at the warehouse.
Here are the final sale prices that were available for the BH Rebel Lite and Gravel-X in Feb and March 2020.
I picked up a few of these bikes with the Yamaha PW-SE motor & PW-X display and they are going strong.

 

[Johnny]

I guess I’m one of the few lucky ones then. I have just over 2500 miles on my Shimano E8000 with zero issues. It has been flawless...... Even the chain is original and still in spec. I feel bad for all the other mid-drive owners who must be struggling to keep theirs up and running....

Isn't your bike a Felt? A friend has exact the same bike, it is nice. What is your chain wear at 2500(and which assist level do you usually ride)?

 

[McCorby]

Isn't your bike a Felt? A friend has exact the same bike, it is nice. What is your chain wear at 2500(and which assist level do you usually ride)?

Yes it’s a Felt Sport-E 50. I use a digital caliper to measure chain wear. I’ll most likely need to replace it next spring. I think it helps that it has a 9 speed versus an 11 speed. The chain is more robust in comparison. I probably ride 70% in Eco, 25% in Trail, and less than 5% in Boost.

 

[Alaskan]

Each has their own experiences, biases and conclusions. As an old friend once observed, "If we both agreed about everything, one of us would not be necessary." For what it is worth my experience with Bosch motors is as follows:

I have been riding 6 different Bosch powered ebikes for the past 2 1/2 years and have sold three of them. I average 7,000 miles a year riding my bikes for fun, exercise and as my preferred mode of transportation. I tend to ride fast and hard. I do most of my own maintenance on the bike parts but let the LBS do the Bosch electrical stuff. I am fairly obsessive in my maintenance and care routine.

The bike with the most miles (almost 7,500) is a 2018 CX that was bought second hand without warranty so I put a Bikespeed RS speed delimiter on it, and modified the drive train with a three tooth larger chain ring to achieve higher speeds with lower cadence on a wider range 11-46 tooth cassette to recapture hill climbing ability. This is also the bike I use to haul the cargo trailer.

I have had no issue with bearings or motor failures or problems of any sort except for $12 motor mounting films needing replacement to eliminate a squeak. I did buy a spare set of bearings for my CX mountain bike as well as a spare complete drive side replacement kit that has been hanging on my pegboard as a yet unused insurance policy. From what I have been able to learn this is an issue confined to Bosch powered mountain bikes that are ridden in rather extreme circumstances, mostly wetter zones like the UK and likely not meticulously cared for. I have read of no bearing issues reported in other circumstances.

It is my understanding from known and reliable sources, that Bosch North America has committed to parts, tech support and replacement batteries for ten years following product introduction . For me that is more than adequate. Heck if I make it more than 10 more years on a bicycle I will be both surprised and overjoyed.

Obviously being able to interchange batteries on all my bikes, two with dual battery capability is a significant plus that has me captured by the Bosch ecosystem. I like the mid drive experience and have found the power well balanced, adequate, smooth and seamless. Thus far with almost 19,000 miles on Bosch bikes, I have no regrets...YMMV (your mileage may vary).

 

[Ebiker01]

Macbook from 2010 and not wanting to upgrade to the newer model?

The white 2009 Mac with plastic cover... i just assigned it a storage location. It did it's job for
11years. Sorry but not sorry Apple for not buying more often.
The new 2020 Mac with M1 chip 13inch is taking it's place. Amazing that, that 2009 Mac is about 50$ worth now !