Crowd Funded E-Bikes

[champignon]

Yes, I know, there is a specific forum or thread for these, but it is pretty much dead and gets very few posts. I've been following several crowd funded projects, some e-bikes and some bike accessories, on both indiegogo and kickstarter. Obviously, there are scams and disappointments, but my impression is that there is some real innovation going on and coming out of that portal, and for some reason there doesn't seem to be very much interest here.

For example, there have been 2 different very light folding city e-bikes on indiegogo, the Carbo, out of Montreal, Canada, and the "One," out of Zurich CH. Both are well under 15 kg, but the One is a 16" bike and the Carbo is a 20" bike. Both of these seem to have some rather interesting technologies in them in terms of frame materials, and overall design. And then there is the Erik Buell Fuell Fluid, which has had some comment here but seemingly not enough given the innovations present. There are also bicycle computers and a GPS cyclometer. There's also mundane stuff like a particular folding fat tire bike that got a middling review here months ago, not to mention a scam or two. And I'm just scratching the surface.

Do people here regard this stuff as too risky or perhaps just a drop in the bucket of the overall innovation in the e-bike space? I am curious as to the reason for the apparent lack of interest in this marketing and innovation channel.

 

[drewberz]

I saw the Carbo and thought it looked interesting. Then I found another campaign and it looked like the Sonos. (forget the exact name). For me, it's too risky to be out $1k+ because remember you are not shopping, you are funding the creator. I'm fine with the smaller, $100 projects though.

 

[rich c]

It can be hard enough getting troubleshooting information and parts from an internet only company who only orders containers from China, let alone someone who is a startup and scrambling to develop a new design or technology. Too risky for me. I watched Sondors trying to bring a $499 eFat Bike into this world on Indiegogo. I waited and bought one on Craigslist for $500 and no shipping. The only reason Sondors was successful was that at that price, they sold thousands. That made for an incredibly strong Facebook owners page and that became the customer tech support.

 

[champignon]

I saw the Carbo and thought it looked interesting. Then I found another campaign and it looked like the Sonos. (forget the exact name). For me, it's too risky to be out $1k+ because remember you are not shopping, you are funding the creator. I'm fine with the smaller, $100 projects though.

The Carbo looks really cool, however they have experienced a lot of delays, and their distribution process is obviously inefficient and expensive, the result being that they have probably priced themselves out of the market. It has the appearance of a group of committed individuals who just don't or didn't have the logistics and manufacturing background to pull this off at a market-friendly price.

The One, and Fuell Fluid, however, both appear to be well-executed, both in terms of the product (although it is hard to evaluate vaporware at this stage) and their distribution/logistics.

I think you need to carefully evaluate these projects on a one by one basis, but it is not as if other sorts of online purchases are risk-free. Lots of people buy e-bikes and other products online and some from other countries such as China. There are some added protections if you use a credit card, but none of this stuff is risk free. Although unlikely, you could also put a deposit down with a local bike shop, and have it go out of business before delivery. Most of my purchases are online, largely because I live in a rural area. Without online options, my choice of product would be severely diminished, and I'd need to use my trips to the city for buying nearly everything.

Perhaps I have become cavalier about the risks involved, but I've been burned relatively few times with online purchases, even from overseas.

Getting back to crowd funded e-bikes and accessories, you can do a modicum of due diligence before buying, plus the public as an orgasm, so to speak, seems to have a sense when something looks real and when it looks like a scam. There was a recent crowd funded e-bike called the EV-Corsa on IGG, and it appears to have been a scam. It didn't produce a lot of sales, less than $70,000 USD if I recall correctly. The more successful campaigns such as Carbo and the ONE and the Fuell Fluid have raised at least 10X that much.

 

[drewberz]

The Carbo looks really cool, however they have experienced a lot of delays, and their distribution process is obviously inefficient and expensive, the result being that they have probably priced themselves out of the market. It has the appearance of a group of committed individuals who just don't or didn't have the logistics and manufacturing background to pull this off at a market-friendly price.

The One, and Fuell Fluid, however, both appear to be well-executed, both in terms of the product (although it is hard to evaluate vaporware at this stage) and their distribution/logistics.

I think you need to carefully evaluate these projects on a one by one basis, but it is not as if other sorts of online purchases are risk-free. Lots of people buy e-bikes and other products online and some from other countries such as China. There are some added protections if you use a credit card, but none of this stuff is risk free. Although unlikely, you could also put a deposit down with a local bike shop, and have it go out of business before delivery. Most of my purchases are online, largely because I live in a rural area. Without online options, my choice of product would be severely diminished, and I'd need to use my trips to the city for buying nearly everything.

Perhaps I have become cavalier about the risks involved, but I've been burned relatively few times with online purchases, even from overseas.

Getting back to crowd funded e-bikes and accessories, you can do a modicum of due diligence before buying, plus the public as an orgasm, so to speak, seems to have a sense when something looks real and when it looks like a scam. There was a recent crowd funded e-bike called the EV-Corsa on IGG, and it appears to have been a scam. It didn't produce a lot of sales, less than $70,000 USD if I recall correctly. The more successful campaigns such as Carbo and the ONE and the Fuell Fluid have raised at least 10X that much.

And logistics is everything. So that's the theme I see play out over and over on crowdfunding. For the first product, the campaign struggles time and time again with delivering.

Your recourse with a LBS is obviously greater if they fail to deliver. It also still holds true with a US based vendor if you also live in the US. But buying overseas from China-I dont have much personal experience with that. What I have seen and read is that returns are harder (more costly) but marketplaces like Alibaba provide some legitimacy to the vendor and thus the transaction.

I agree nothing is risk free. I think my risk appetite is lower than the average person too. I would consider $70k to be an attractive scam and other scammers would surely follow suit at that level. I also wouldn't attach more credibility to a higher level of fundraising. I think this falls into a herd mentality trap. I think you are right to do the due diligence though on each individual project. But that would indicate a breakdown really on Kickstarter or Indiegogo's part as a platform if people are doing much due diligence beyond the information provided on their platforms.

 

[harryS]

Back when the sub-forum was busier, it was my impression/opinion that most of the ebikes were just off-the-shelf in China. Some of the goods was 100% scan and I base that on going to the site and seeing that it had been removed for violating the crowd fund site's TOS.

I don't know if it is still true, but some of the campaigns did not guarantee a refund if the project didn't meet the minimum funding, a breeding ground for scamming.

Anyway, the best reason to avoid crowd funding is that you can miss an entire year or maybe two of riding if your hopes for an ebike are based on crowd funding, esepcially if you don't live where it's always warm. Get one now and have fun.

The Carbo is nice, but seat post batteries are available on off-the-shelf metal folding bikes in CHina now, and I think the reason they don't get imported is that you cannot put any battery capacity in the space. I would guess 4AH is typical. You might get 12-14 miles out of that. Too low,

 

[Ken M]

My overall take on "last mile" folding ebikes is ... Why? Does anyone really need assist to ride a mile or two? I would have thought GM would have realized this and focused on a "car supplementing" ebike but I'm sure their bean counters decided that would be a bad idea and therefore they did what is called defensive development (came out with an inferior product that would not reduce car sales). Sadly if their ebike effort fails they'll conclude there is no demand for urban mobility purposed ebikes.

 

[J.R.]

4 years ago I backed an ebike on Kickstarter. I backed it because Neal Saiki, founder of Zero eMC, was a partner in the project. He designed a patented battery pack that was the real innovation in the project. Before the campaign was fully funded he backed out and took with him all his innovations. Because it was Kickstarter I was able to back out with a refund. Kickstarter allows a backer to pull out with a refund, as long as the project hasn't fully funded. With Indigogo a backer can't back out. Refunds aren't allowed, whether a project is funded or not.

Crowdfunding isn't regulated properly. Campaigns make it look as though you're shopping, and too many backers believe they are buying something. They aren't. I'm surprised these platforms still exist. Pure and simple its gambling, with little oversight. Better to put your money in the stockmarket for a few years and go shopping with the profits. I'll never back another crowdfunded project. Then again I don't by lottery tickets either. Odds of really winning are similar, in my opinion. Somewhere on this forum are about 100 pages of arguments in one thread of the successful Sondors campaign. Successful! I'm really glad I was only a spectator.

 

[champignon]

And logistics is everything. So that's the theme I see play out over and over on crowdfunding. For the first product, the campaign struggles time and time again with delivering.

Your recourse with a LBS is obviously greater if they fail to deliver. It also still holds true with a US based vendor if you also live in the US. But buying overseas from China-I dont have much personal experience with that. What I have seen and read is that returns are harder (more costly) but marketplaces like Alibaba provide some legitimacy to the vendor and thus the transaction.

I agree nothing is risk free. I think my risk appetite is lower than the average person too. I would consider $70k to be an attractive scam and other scammers would surely follow suit at that level. I also wouldn't attach more credibility to a higher level of fundraising. I think this falls into a herd mentality trap. I think you are right to do the due diligence though on each individual project. But that would indicate a breakdown really on Kickstarter or Indiegogo's part as a platform if people are doing much due diligence beyond the information provided on their platforms.

I think that Kickstarter has a much better reputation for vetting their project listings than does Indiegogo. On the other hand, since Indiegogo will accept earlier stage projects and has lower underwriting requirements, you might get some truly inventive stuff on that platform that wouldn't make it to KS. KS reportedly charges higher fees than does IGG, and as a result, there are some established companies that will unveil a new project on IGG, rather than KS, due to cost. For example, right now, Ninebot-Segway has a new scooter they are selling on IGG; Ninebot-Segway is an established company and one of the major scooter suppliers to the scooter rental companies such as Lyme et. al., so the likelihood of getting what you paid for in that setting is probably more or less the same as any online purchase.

 

[champignon]

Back when the sub-forum was busier, it was my impression/opinion that most of the ebikes were just off-the-shelf in China. Some of the goods was 100% scan and I base that on going to the site and seeing that it had been removed for violating the crowd fund site's TOS.

I don't know if it is still true, but some of the campaigns did not guarantee a refund if the project didn't meet the minimum funding, a breeding ground for scamming.

Anyway, the best reason to avoid crowd funding is that you can miss an entire year or maybe two of riding if your hopes for an ebike are based on crowd funding, esepcially if you don't live where it's always warm. Get one now and have fun.

The Carbo is nice, but seat post batteries are available on off-the-shelf metal folding bikes in CHina now, and I think the reason they don't get imported is that you cannot put any battery capacity in the space. I would guess 4AH is typical. You might get 12-14 miles out of that. Too low,

Kickstarter refunds your money if fundraising goals aren't reached; I don't know what IGG does. I do know that IGG doesn't give the money to the project company immediately, there is a delay and then it goes out in pieces. I would certainly not buy anything from either of these sites that I desperately needed to receive on a strict timeline resembling what the project owners claim. As to the Carbo, they claim a 9AH battery as the biggest one they sell, and unless they are lying they have figured out some way to get that in there (but it is 36V, not 48V).

 

[champignon]

4 years ago I backed an ebike on Kickstarter. I backed it because Neal Saiki, founder of Zero eMC, was a partner in the project. He designed a patented battery pack that was the real innovation in the project. Before the campaign was fully funded he backed out and took with him all his innovations. Because it was Kickstarter I was able to back out with a refund. Kickstarter allows a backer to pull out with a refund, as long as the project hasn't fully funded. With Indigogo a backer can't back out. Refunds aren't allowed, whether a project is funded or not.

Crowdfunding isn't regulated properly. Campaigns make it look as though you're shopping, and too many backers believe they are buying something. They aren't. I'm surprised these platforms still exist. Pure and simple its gambling, with little oversight. Better to put your money in the stockmarket for a few years and go shopping with the profits. I'll never back another crowdfunded project. Then again I don't by lottery tickets either. Odds of really winning are similar, in my opinion. Somewhere on this forum are about 100 pages of arguments in one thread of the successful Sondors campaign. Successful! I'm really glad I was only a spectator.

IGG does give refunds; I have refunded 2 projects so far, but they aren't as liberal with the timing of it. Some project owners on IGG will refund contributions even if IGG won't; Ninebot-Segway is currently doing that a lot on a scooter project they are funding now. It depends on the project owner.

I don't think that someone with your opinion of Crowd funding should go to crowd funding sites or buy (or support) anything there. You obviously don't like the concept and that is fine. I personally do not think that government regulation is the cure for everything, and my sense is that both of these (and other similar platforms) get sued from time to time, so they are probably following the laws as much as needed. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad people out there, and an unlimited number of ways to scam people. There are much more common and ubiquitous ways of scamming people than crowd funding sites, like all of those robo calls to senior citizens (and others) claiming to be from the IRS coming to collect unpaid taxes.

 

[drewberz]

4 years ago I backed an ebike on Kickstarter. I backed it because Neal Saiki, founder of Zero eMC, was a partner in the project. He designed a patented battery pack that was the real innovation in the project. Before the campaign was fully funded he backed out and took with him all his innovations. Because it was Kickstarter I was able to back out with a refund. Kickstarter allows a backer to pull out with a refund, as long as the project hasn't fully funded. With Indigogo a backer can't back out. Refunds aren't allowed, whether a project is funded or not.

Crowdfunding isn't regulated properly. Campaigns make it look as though you're shopping, and too many backers believe they are buying something. They aren't. I'm surprised these platforms still exist. Pure and simple its gambling, with little oversight. Better to put your money in the stockmarket for a few years and go shopping with the profits. I'll never back another crowdfunded project. Then again I don't by lottery tickets either. Odds of really winning are similar, in my opinion. Somewhere on this forum are about 100 pages of arguments in one thread of the successful Sondors campaign. Successful! I'm really glad I was only a spectator.

would you be more interested in crowdfunding if there were more protections for the funder in place? in your case mentioned, there could be a key man clause on the IGG platform.

I think these platforms dont exist to give people a ROI like the stockmarket could. I think people want to get a 'deal' and even be an early adopter of something cool.

With that said, I get the sense that people view crowdfunding as comparable to shopping online, which it is not.

 

[champignon]

would you be more interested in crowdfunding if there were more protections for the funder in place? in your case mentioned, there could be a key man clause on the IGG platform.

I think these platforms dont exist to give people a ROI like the stockmarket could. I think people want to get a 'deal' and even be an early adopter of something cool.

With that said, I get the sense that people view crowdfunding as comparable to shopping online, which it is not.

Some people (judging by the comments left on the various campaign pages) definitely do view crowdfunding as akin to online shopping, even though the websites have disclaimers on all campaign pages and on the checkout pages as well. And you need to remember that there are all sorts of crowdfunding campaigns, including improbable ones where some bozos are trying to get you to finance their opening of a cafe or pizzeria.

I have only looked at campaigns covering items the might interest me (no surprise there), which would mean tech, transportation, electronics, and food. So there is a vast universe of artsy-fartsy and other stuff I haven't even bothered to read. But in the universe of stuff I've looked at, the campaigns seem to devolve to these categories (and there may be others):

(1) Something truly innovative, although it might only remain innovative for a short time after which an army of people will copy the idea and it will no longer seem unusual. That would include such things as the Carbo and The ONE folding bikes. These sorts of things don't have any real competition in the marketplace today. Another example would be the Lupe cordless vacuum cleaner on Kickstarter, which I personally believe is the real deal and well worth considering supporting (full disclosure; I'm supporting it).

(2) Rehash of existing ideas packaged as somewhat unique and at what appears at first glance to be a deal. This would include the Max folding fat tire bike reviewed on this site a few months ago, the EV Corsa folding bike (which appears to have been a scam), and several other e bikes whose names I have forgotten.

(3) Ready to release products that real companies choose to release on KS or IGG for the buzz factor that they create. Savings might be 20% and the manufacturers recoup this by not having to sell through dealers. The crowdfunding site commissions of 10% are still way under what it costs a company to sell through dealers. Examples would include the Ninebot scooter on IGG right now. Another one would be the Smart Halo 2 cycle computer on KS. Finally, the ONE folding e-bike also seems to fit this model, as does the Erik Buell Fuell Fluid e-bike. Creating a real buzz for a new product can be a challenge and these crowdfunding sites can supply the buzz. I think it's a good business strategy for some real products and can give a real leg up in the right cases. It's just another type of marketing, using this platform.

(4) Junk you never knew you needed; probably the best example of that I've seen is: Tropo Air Pump

Crowdfunding sites can be addictive, a little bit like lottery tickets. You will probably never win anything worth winning with a lottery ticket, but they make a point of regularly giving you two or three bucks, which encourages you again to buy more tickets rather than putting that useless $2 or $3 back in your pocket.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Even if all of the information needed is available to make a fair evaluation (and it never is), very few people have the expertise to evaluate the technical feasibility of a product idea or the ability of the founders to actually execute on their idea. Depending on the complexity of the product this may involve software design, hardware design, manufacturing, managing an overseas manufacturing operation, supply chain management, &c. Very few people exist who can make an informed judgement on all of the possible issues.

Venture capital firms employ and contract with a pretty large army of people who can make those evaluations, and doing the legwork can take thousands of dollars worth of people's time to get it done right, especially since it is always done under considerable time pressure. It again isn't feasible for people on kickstarter to make those evaluations.

I put into kickstarters and IGG campaigns in two fairly discrete situations. The first is where there are people producing something that I want to buy and those people have a proven track record producing said things -- that ends up being fairly close to making a pre-order for a product online. The other case is where something is so damned cool that I can't feel bad kicking $10 or $20 towards the idea even if it doesn't pan out -- kind of a Pascal's wager situation.

 

[champignon]

Even if all of the information needed is available to make a fair evaluation (and it never is), very few people have the expertise to evaluate the technical feasibility of a product idea or the ability of the founders to actually execute on their idea. Depending on the complexity of the product this may involve software design, hardware design, manufacturing, managing an overseas manufacturing operation, supply chain management, &c. Very few people exist who can make an informed judgement on all of the possible issues.

Venture capital firms employ and contract with a pretty large army of people who can make those evaluations, and doing the legwork can take thousands of dollars worth of people's time to get it done right, especially since it is always done under considerable time pressure. It again isn't feasible for people on kickstarter to make those evaluations.

I put into kickstarters and IGG campaigns in two fairly discrete situations. The first is where there are people producing something that I want to buy and those people have a proven track record producing said things -- that ends up being fairly close to making a pre-order for a product online. The other case is where something is so damned cool that I can't feel bad kicking $10 or $20 towards the idea even if it doesn't pan out -- kind of a Pascal's wager situation.

I don't think that anyone should donate to a crowdfunded project unless they really want to; it's one of those 100% optional activities. There are, however, some really unique and new things out there and if you like cutting edge products it can be interesting to follow this stuff.

Venture Capital firms, in spite of their efforts at due diligence, back a lot of duds that never go anywhere. The business model is based upon being "right" often enough that they get the occasional big win, which pays the entire return. Since the goal of a VC firm is to make money, it's not really comparable to some individual funding a widget on Kickstarter.

If the widget is never made then the crowdfunding supporter loses his money and gets no widget in return. This could happen either as a result of intentional fraud, poor business sense, or failure to execute for any number of reasons. If the Widget is made and it's not all that it was claimed to be, the funder gets a substandard widget.

Regardless of the price of the item, I think that one needs to differentiate between the ready for market follow on products that real companies offer, which as you point out are akin to a pre-order, and the totally new products being made by new companies. Within the latter category there are some campaigns which are obviously well conceived and well capitalized from the start, and the rest of the projects. It's the last group that one needs to exercise a great deal of caution on.

There's not a lot of glitz to this one, but I think it is probably the best campaign I've ever seen (albeit not a bike campaign): Lupe Cordless Vacuum Cleaner on Kickstarter

 

[tomjasz]

It can be hard enough getting troubleshooting information and parts from an internet only company who only orders containers from China, let alone someone who is a startup and scrambling to develop a new design or technology. Too risky for me.

Spot on! I think they have had more failures, with crowdfunded bikes, than long term successes.

 

[tomjasz]

Somewhere on this forum are about 100 pages of arguments in one thread of the successful Sondors campaign. Successful! I'm really glad I was only a spectator.

I worked for a large reseller of motors, kits, and batteries during the Sondors craze. They made a KILLING on aftermarket parts making the Sondors a useful eBike. For many of us it was essential unless you wanted a slow bike with low a Ah battery.

 

[Art Deco]

Once I saw that facepalm was the only support, I didn't look any further

 

[ruffruff]

Warranty work?
Parts available?

I've always been a bleeding edge technology guy and I wasted a lot of money over the years on the latest-greatest.

As I get older and summers shorter I want a bike that is reliable, fixable and enjoyable.
If a bike goes down and you have to wait for parts or a LBS can't help you it's not worth it.

I use to do all my own maintenance on vehicles, then one day I did the math and not counting my time, I was saving maybe $20 on oil changes.
I take them into the stealership now.

So where am I going with this? I might fund a new electric razor, I don't care if I don't shave for a week, or out $50.
But for something like biking where you spend thousands, you have a short window of usability each year and you want it to work every time, I'm leaning more and more into the brand names from a LBS.

Also, I've said this before in other threads. Just go to the forums by Brands. How can the market sustain ALL the hundreds of ebike brands now on the market?
You gotta wonder how many bikes some of those really obscure brands sell in a month?