That is what fixed it for me. It was super annoying to have to stop the bike and get my hands all greasy to put the chain back on the front ring. It’s pretty easy to do as well (unlike the Shadow Plus derailleur upgrade.)
cross current s question(s)
- Thread starter barry g
- Start date
That is what fixed it for me. It was super annoying to have to stop the bike and get my hands all greasy to put the chain back on the front ring. It’s pretty easy to do as well (unlike the Shadow Plus derailleur upgrade.)
Reid
Well-Known Member
Wish to add that for not much money*, we can upgrade to a 10S cassette that affords a wider, 11-42 range. That is the one I chose and am pleased with the lower low gear.
And with the 56T narrow-wide-tooth chainring, also fitted months ago, my CCS still has a lower low gear than stock and a higher high gear. I don't need 10 speeds, of course; what I was after was a lower low gear and a higher high gear.
Here's the long cage Shadow Plus derailleur I happened to choose.
And here is a 10s shifter that I remain pleased with.
Going to 10s also requires a 10s chain. Two chains will be needed because one is not quite long enough. And so you have to make up the shortage from the second chain. And of course, master links are required. And of course you will enjoy having the Park pliers for easy opening and closing of missing links...
* Uh oh! It adds up fast if you choose to go to 10s. But for me, I have zero regrets and would do it all over again. No chain drops ever and a nice low gear for starting out and a highest gear that makes for a more relaxed cadence at 28mph than stock.
I think the clutch type derailleur is the first and foremost importance. With a clutch derailleur, imo a narrow-wide chainring is not so important. The much stronger cage spring in the Shadow Plus (for instance) is by itself sufficient to control chain whipping on my CCS even with the clutch function in the OFF position.
If only the stock 9s derailleur were made with a much stiffer spring, chain drops would be mostly all prevented, imo.
Last edited:
Nova Haibike
Well-Known Member
KMC's e-specific chains are 136 links, 20 links longer than most chains.
Reid
Well-Known Member
Great! I surely did not know that. Just found their page and indeed, 136 link chain is available for 10s. Thanks!
http://www.kmcchain.eu/chain-mtb-ebike
X10e EPT
1/2" X 11/128"
Pin Length: 5.88 mm
136 Links
Weight: 321 grams
Color: Dark Silver
Hi-Performance
Triple X-Durability
Anti Rust/e-Bike
Non Directional
EcoProTeQ coated
For mid-motor e-Bike 10-speed derailleur systems
MisterBritcom
Active Member
The ccs with homespun upgrades to the transmission is an affordable superbike.
bob armani
Well-Known Member
A wealth of info here for these upgrades. I always look at the size/number of the front chain ring teeth when purchasing a commuter with a rear hub motor. I currently use a 46T on my commuter and it works well and prevents any over pedaling at comfortable cadence. I have far too many gears that are rarely use. I think I would be comfortable with perhaps 7 speeds with the lowest number of teeth in the low gear. I would think using a 56T probably gets you going at a nice cadence to get you up to the much higher speeds. Not sure how much more I can increase from the 46T I currently have and what is the max number of teeth I can swap it out at. The Deckas SSCR you have quoted looks like a good start. Thanks!
Chris Hammond
Well-Known Member
I have been fortunate to have only had 2 drops in > 2000 miles of riding.
I am wondering a bit about cadence and whether it is associated with chaindrop???
I ask this because it is very apparent that I am comfortable at much higher cadence than most. Reid mentions being happy with a higher geared top gear than stock. I find this amazing, because to me top gear is barely useable. I am only comfortable with the 52T/11T when I am travelling at least 33 mph, the cadence feels a bit slow at that speed, but if I am on a downhill and can accelerate the bike above that speed I will use it. I can pedal the bike up to about 42mph with acceptable cadence. (Needless to say this is on steeper downhills, as the bike is providing zero assist at the higher speeds.
At any rate the most recent chaindrop I had was at a slower speed while accelerating and I know my cadence was lower than normal at the time.
Before I got the bike, I was sure I was going to end up converting to a 10S setup with a clutched derailleur. Now I will likely only consider this if drops become far more frequent, or when its time to change the motor. (I have decided, when/if the motor eventually fails, I am going to convert to a higher speed motor to allow the bike to provide assist at higher speeds.)
Just to clarify, chain drop to the inside is different than the chain getting jammed in between the chain ring and guard to the outside. On my Cross Current it would only get jammed to the outside on the top two cassette gears right after I shifted. The chain dropping to the inside only happened when riding over big bumps at high speed (when the chain loses tension.)
I run the stock 52T with a 10sp 12-28 cassette. I personally find the 52T ring to be a bit overgeared at the lower assist levels. I’ve thought about swapping the front chainring for a 46 or 48T but I’m not sure if it’s worth the hassle. Plus, I’d hate to lose the top end spend as 52-12 feels just about right on S mode with a tailwind or slight decline. From my road cycling days I would start to feel ‘spun out’ at about 35-36mph on a 52-11. I don’t really like spinning 100+ RPM for any length of time though.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
I had a chain drop recently, first one in hundreds of miles. My sense is that it has more to do with torque than cadence. I think each of my chain drops (only 4 in 1400 miles so not a lot of data) has happened when I was putting more pressure on the pedals while shifting. This last one was definitely not on a bumpy surface. I'm pretty tentative about this. I wouldn't call it a conclusion, more like an interpolation, with only 4 data points.
MisterBritcom
Active Member
Yeah, you're gonna want to upgrade the cassette anyway, so the ten speed conversion makes sense.
I did without the chain pliers by using two small flat head screwdrivers and squeezing them together.
Reid
Well-Known Member
And I made jury rig chain whip by drilling a chain-sized hole in a plywood 24" square, pinning a length of old bike chain to its backside, then standing the wheel on edge over the hole, wrapped the chain around the cassette large cog and then was able to undo the splined nut with this simple Park tool and a breaker bar. The stock cassette is great! unless...you want a lower low gear!
Someone should invent a super stiff helper spring to augment the very weak OEM cage-arm spring of the stock derailleur.
That would really be a fix, too, imo. My stock CCS setup got worse over time. So I shortened the chain to cause more pre-tension of the spring. Helped a lot for a very short time, only...
Chain would usually drop outside the chainwheel if I was in a higher gear and if I was NOT pressing hard on the pedals. If I coasted over, say, a little speed bump. There goes that chain drop again @(#$!
The chain was so slack, so untensioned by the stock derailleur, it was always jouncing and striking the chainstay.
Why would Shimano make units deliberately like that?
OTOH, with a very strong spring there would have been no problem. I make that as a bolded statement of fact because I do not need to use the clutch feature of the Shadow Plus, because its spring is super strong.
Bike shifts require a bit more effort than stock today. But because of the high, basic tension the chain does not whip around so much as it did with the stock weak sister derailleur. I have used the friction clutch and I have not used the friction clutch. No chain drops in my riding, either way. Today I generally leave the clutch ON, just for insurance, because a chain drop is so unpleasant.
As basis, all chain drops from the chainwheel are caused in our CCS bikes by wild undulations, by the whipping up and down and side to side sometimes like a jumprope, of chain permitted to swing wildly over bumps if it is not under pedal pressure.
Under pedal pressure the chain won't jump the chainring. Ergo, if we are coasting on rough terrain, a strong derailleur arm tension is required to control chain jouncing because the tension side of the chain is slack and the cassette freewheels.
We don't, for instance, suffer chain drops with single speed setups. The basic difference is that no wild chain whipping is possible in a single speed setup because there is no spring loaded, chain-retensioning arm on the slack half of the chain.
Someone should invent a super stiff helper spring to augment the very weak OEM cage-arm spring of the stock derailleur.
That would really be a fix, too, imo. My stock CCS setup got worse over time. So I shortened the chain to cause more pre-tension of the spring. Helped a lot for a very short time, only...
Chain would usually drop outside the chainwheel if I was in a higher gear and if I was NOT pressing hard on the pedals. If I coasted over, say, a little speed bump. There goes that chain drop again @(#$!
The chain was so slack, so untensioned by the stock derailleur, it was always jouncing and striking the chainstay.
Why would Shimano make units deliberately like that?
OTOH, with a very strong spring there would have been no problem. I make that as a bolded statement of fact because I do not need to use the clutch feature of the Shadow Plus, because its spring is super strong.
Bike shifts require a bit more effort than stock today. But because of the high, basic tension the chain does not whip around so much as it did with the stock weak sister derailleur. I have used the friction clutch and I have not used the friction clutch. No chain drops in my riding, either way. Today I generally leave the clutch ON, just for insurance, because a chain drop is so unpleasant.
As basis, all chain drops from the chainwheel are caused in our CCS bikes by wild undulations, by the whipping up and down and side to side sometimes like a jumprope, of chain permitted to swing wildly over bumps if it is not under pedal pressure.
Under pedal pressure the chain won't jump the chainring. Ergo, if we are coasting on rough terrain, a strong derailleur arm tension is required to control chain jouncing because the tension side of the chain is slack and the cassette freewheels.
We don't, for instance, suffer chain drops with single speed setups. The basic difference is that no wild chain whipping is possible in a single speed setup because there is no spring loaded, chain-retensioning arm on the slack half of the chain.
Last edited:
Did you get any help from Juiced to replace the rear spokes? I have one of the first run CCS bikes, and have been talking to them for months about the problem. I've had 5 spokes break, and their reply keeps being that it's a maintainance or wear and tear issue. They know better but seen to be stonewalling.I have a first run CCS and I have gotten the spokes replaced....with the new ones from Juiced. So far so good. 3+ weeks no issues. I have an occasional chain drop but its not really a big deal.
but i'll be interested in if anyone comes up with a good fix.
I may just design one my self and print it on my 3d printer....
Andy
john peck
Well-Known Member
Only reason I had chain drops after 600 mi was a stretched badly worn chain from wet grimy riding. As for spokes, I put on
heavy duty 11 gauge spokes & still managed to pop 3 on a chuckhole yesterday, but I'm back on the road. My CCS aspires the being
a mountain bike, & I'm no light weight.
My chain drop fix was swapping out the 52T chainring for a 50/34 compact & a slightly shorter chain. This was primarily to get
more torque since I have a lot of hills, If I manually shift it down to the 34T, it will climb most anything. It is also nice for low
speed cruising with very little effort.
heavy duty 11 gauge spokes & still managed to pop 3 on a chuckhole yesterday, but I'm back on the road. My CCS aspires the being
a mountain bike, & I'm no light weight.
My chain drop fix was swapping out the 52T chainring for a 50/34 compact & a slightly shorter chain. This was primarily to get
more torque since I have a lot of hills, If I manually shift it down to the 34T, it will climb most anything. It is also nice for low
speed cruising with very little effort.
Last edited:
It's distressing to hear about CCS spokes breaking! The 12g spokes on the back 13g on the front should be plenty beefy enough.
Spokes usually break due to fatigue. The most common places they break are the bend, the head, and the threads. I'm guessing that the factory is not stress relieving the spokes. Even very strong spokes can break after not so many miles if this hasn't been done. It's something like bending and unbending a wire coat hanger till it snaps.
I'm going to stress relieve the spokes on my new CCS tomorrow. It just takes a couple of minutes, and usually doesn't require re-truing. The best way by far is to put on some leather gloves and pinch adjacent pairs of spokes. You have to squeeze pretty hard. The idea is to momentarily tension the spokes an extra 50% or so. That way the spokes are no longer working near their yield point -- which causes rapid fatigue -- as they de-tension and re-tension every wheel revolution.
Spokes usually break due to fatigue. The most common places they break are the bend, the head, and the threads. I'm guessing that the factory is not stress relieving the spokes. Even very strong spokes can break after not so many miles if this hasn't been done. It's something like bending and unbending a wire coat hanger till it snaps.
I'm going to stress relieve the spokes on my new CCS tomorrow. It just takes a couple of minutes, and usually doesn't require re-truing. The best way by far is to put on some leather gloves and pinch adjacent pairs of spokes. You have to squeeze pretty hard. The idea is to momentarily tension the spokes an extra 50% or so. That way the spokes are no longer working near their yield point -- which causes rapid fatigue -- as they de-tension and re-tension every wheel revolution.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
The spoke problem was caused by 11 gauge spokes that didn't fit properly in the rim, causing them to flex too much on the elbow. When they made the change to Sapim spokes in November, the problem was solved. Not saying you wouldn't do the stress relief procedure you describe -- can't hurt -- but there's been no report of excessive breakage since the Sapims replaced the spokes used in the first run of CCS's.
Chris Hammond
Well-Known Member
Short answer is yes the 52V gives you more power and higher top speed.
I have a 52V battery that I routinely charge to 80% which is 55.4V or about the same as a 48V pack at 100% charge. Performance is fine this way. I have only fully charged my battery to 100% or 58.8V twice (I have done 90% on a couple of occasions as well.). The performance difference is clearly noticeable. Top assisted speed goes from ~34 to ~37.5 mph, and acceleration certainly seems stronger (although this is clearly subjective).
Regarding spokes, in the November 2017 Production Update on the Juiced website there's a picture with a caption "Smaller 13G spoke sits flat against the motor flange." If they had been using spokes with heads too large for the flange drillings, there could be lots of unwanted movement, causing fatigue.
One thing still a little strange, the specs say 12G but the CCS replacement parts are listed as 13G. My 2018 CCS spokes measure 2.5 mm, which Sapin calls 12G. It's possible either one would work.
One thing still a little strange, the specs say 12G but the CCS replacement parts are listed as 13G. My 2018 CCS spokes measure 2.5 mm, which Sapin calls 12G. It's possible either one would work.
Nova Haibike
Well-Known Member
It is not only the gauge that needs to be considered. Here is an article worth reading: Wheel Building Tip No. 8 – Know Your Spoke Elbows.
MisterBritcom
Active Member
I bought my CCS in March, 2018. I've kept a close eye on the spokes because of trouble with earlier models, and I've never even had to tighten one. Both wheels are still pretty true after about 1500 miles. I ride on smooth roads, no curb hopping or stairs.
Chris Hammond
Well-Known Member
That my friend is a great question. If anyone knows the answer, I'd love to hear it!!!! If that works as a "plug and play" solution for more speed, I'll jump on it once my warranty is up.
I can tell you from my experience, there is more speed to be had from the CCS without much tinkering. If I am on a slight downhill or tailwind, I will be riding at the bike's assisted speed limit for the voltage at that time, and I will be pulling no power in many cases, or very little power depending on speed and slope.
Similar threads
