Class 1 vs 3

[Rick53]

Trek Dealer Who only has Verve + in Stock : I think was attempting to get me to settle for a Verve : Told me that to get the 28 mPH speed on a Class 3 : You have to be able to pedal a regular Hybrid that quickly : I can get MY FX on flat Smooth Surfaces up to about 23 MPH : But that's not sustainable for very long . It's a Peak which falls off .Average Speed is about 13-14 MPH. Now on a Verve My average Speed drops to 11-12 . Fastest I have been able to get the Verve going on a flat road is 21. Again for not very long.

When I told the salesman that he claimed I'd never get a Class 3 fast enough to take advantage of even 20MPH. I question his motives since they carry Specialized and Trek > They just don't stock them all.

Plus Yesterday a Woman went flying by me on a Bright Yellow Vado . I was going around 13 MPH as she passed me and left me in the dust : It appeared she was peddling effort wise less then I was :

So is the Sales guy being truthful. ?????????????????????

 

[Mulezen]

Not so much untruthful as plain don’t know what they are selling. In the spring I bought my SuperCommuter7. I asked about the difference with the 8. Nothing but the speed which they assured me I didn’t need. They also had a 7 in the warehouse. I found this site AFTER purchase and now wish I had the SC8 for a variety of reasons though I am happy with what I’m riding.
It’s time to take my bike in for checkup (Trek dealer) and I wonder if they still will be ignorant about computer update. Hopefully my questions about enabling walk mode has encouraged them to get up to speed

 

[christob]

I could get to and maintain 28 on my class 3 without giving the same pedal input as I’d need to on a pedal bike. (Especially if I use my ebike’s max assist.)
That said, after 18 mos ebiking I have not found a valid / continuous use for speeds above probably 20 on average, within my particular rides and routes. So I have more power in my class 3 than I (in hindsight) require or needed to pay for.

 

[The duke]

Trek Dealer Who only has Verve + in Stock : I think was attempting to get me to settle for a Verve : Told me that to get the 28 mPH speed on a Class 3 : You have to be able to pedal a regular Hybrid that quickly : I can get MY FX on flat Smooth Surfaces up to about 23 MPH : But that's not sustainable for very long . It's a Peak which falls off .Average Speed is about 13-14 MPH. Now on a Verve My average Speed drops to 11-12 . Fastest I have been able to get the Verve going on a flat road is 21. Again for not very long.

When I told the salesman that he claimed I'd never get a Class 3 fast enough to take advantage of even 20MPH. I question his motives since they carry Specialized and Trek > They just don't stock them all.

Plus Yesterday a Woman went flying by me on a Bright Yellow Vado . I was going around 13 MPH as she passed me and left me in the dust : It appeared she was peddling effort wise less then I was :

So is the Sales guy being truthful. ?????????????????????

This so irritates me. I had the same experience at San Diego Fly Rides in La Jolla. They told me that the typical road biker is doing 20mph and that I'd never need to be going faster than this.

After buying a class 1 emtb, I realized that on flat roads, acoustic roadies are going way over 20mph on average. I also learned that a comfortable cruising speed for me was right around 20-21mph. I was stuck with a mid drive motor that would turn on and off and on irritatingly as I crossed back and forth over the 20mph cut off.

Trust me, on a class 3, on the road, you will definitely be able to keep a pace over 20mph. Not up hills, but definitely on the flats. Salespeople are sometimes if not often horrible and just trying to make a sale. That's one of the big reasons I do all my research and shopping online. A couple of hours on the allknowing interwebs and I'm able to stump most salespeople.

 

[Mulezen]

IF Your rides are primarily on trails...you should check the regulations...it might be a Class 1 is legal and Class 3 not

 

[Amazer98]

Repeat after me, ‘Class 3 is the way to go, everything else is way too slow’!

 

[Alaskan]

Not up hills, but definitely on the flats. Salespeople are sometimes if not often horrible and just trying to make a sale. That's one of the big reasons I do all my research and shopping online. A couple of hours on the allknowing interwebs and I'm able to stump most salespeople.

You are absolutely correct about the state of many bicycle sales people's knowledge. It sounds like the Trek people you dealt with were not so well informed. Our local Trek shop has helpful, friendly, knowledgeable people, both on the sales floor as well as in the repair shop.

You give solid advice about doing your own research on line prior to buying. However more than a grain of salt is needed when seeking advice on line as well. The good info is out there but it is all mixed up with rider's confirmation bias, sales b/s from internet/Chinese bike companies, self styled do it yourself advocates, etc. It is every bit as important to be discerning and careful about the info you get on line as it is to be skeptical of what a LBS salesman tells you.

Also, I would avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You can get the info you need on line and still buy from a LBS if you want to test ride your narrowed down choices. You may also want to have reliable access to pro service on your bike. The sales person my be a duffus but the shop guys could end up being of great value to you going forward.

 

[FreeWheelie]

If you are riding mainly in the city with stops, traffic, and pedestrians, youre not hitting 28 mph very often unless you like living on the edge

 

[Alaskan]

If you are riding mainly in the city with stops, traffic, and pedestrians, youre not hitting 28 mph very often unless you like living on the edge

Or going down hill! I routinely take the lane and keep my speed at 24-26 while riding in traffic through town. This is when I use Turbo assist level most commonly. It is much safer than going 15 at the edge of the road.

 

[FreeWheelie]

Or going down hill! I routinely take the lane and keep my speed at 24-26 while riding in traffic through town. This is when I use Turbo assist level most commonly. It is much safer than going 15 at the edge of the road.

A biker near here died recently when someone opened their car door suddenly and he got launched into the intersection and got hit by a truck. Too many variables

 

[Alaskan]

A biker near here died recently when someone opened their car door suddenly and he got launched into the intersection and got hit by a truck. Too many variables

So what are you saying? Never ride on roads? When you take the lane you are in the middle of the lane, out of reach from opening car doors. having been injured by an opening car door, I never pass a car within reach of the doors.

 

[FreeWheelie]

So what are you saying? Never ride on roads? When you take the lane you are in the middle of the lane, out of reach from opening car doors. having been injured by an opening car door, I never pass a car within reach of the doors.

Im saying what i said in post #9

 

[Asher]

If you are riding mainly in the city with stops, traffic, and pedestrians, youre not hitting 28 mph very often unless you like living on the edge

If you ever want to go 21 mph with assist, then you go for Class 3.

When I'd ride my class 3, I would pedal hard and go 22-24 mph on flats. 28 is a maximum not a minimum

 

[elliot friedman]

I very very rarely go above 22-23mph on my class 3 but when I do it's good to know that I don't have to peddle a 50lb bike without any assistance at all. It's not so good to know that if I get into an accident with another person I'm screwed because most of my riding is on a bike path, however, I pride myself as being a very cautious and courteous rider when I'm near others.

 

[6zfshdb]

If you ever want to go 21 mph with assist, then you go for Class 3.

When I'd ride my class 3, I would pedal hard and go 22-24 mph on flats. 28 is a maximum not a minimum

I think this depends on the bike. All have slight differences in performance. For example, I can pedal my class 2 Pedego Platinum Interceptor to 25 mph with just a little effort using max assist.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

This so irritates me. I had the same experience at San Diego Fly Rides in La Jolla. They told me that the typical road biker is doing 20mph and that I'd never need to be going faster than this.

After buying a class 1 emtb, I realized that on flat roads, acoustic roadies are going way over 20mph on average. I also learned that a comfortable cruising speed for me was right around 20-21mph. I was stuck with a mid drive motor that would turn on and off and on irritatingly as I crossed back and forth over the 20mph cut off.

Trust me, on a class 3, on the road, you will definitely be able to keep a pace over 20mph. Not up hills, but definitely on the flats. Salespeople are sometimes if not often horrible and just trying to make a sale. That's one of the big reasons I do all my research and shopping online. A couple of hours on the allknowing interwebs and I'm able to stump most salespeople.

It's the cut off right at 20 mph or sometimes even before, that is the problem with Class 1. It's not that the typical rider always needs or wants to go 28 mph, but that restriction right around 20 happens to be at a pace and cadence where many people would like to be able to do 21, 22, 23, etc which is not hard to get to especially on flats or slight down hill runs. I hear it all the time from customers. If mid drive ebike OEMs wanted to sell a lot more class 1's they would install something like a push button over ride that would allow the motor to assist up to say 23 or 24 mph. Market it as a Class 1, and let the consumer make the choice depending on local laws. The class 1's with Yamaha mid drives or Bosch Performance line, or Brose that have torque ratings between 60 and 80 80nm, could easily do the extra few mph.

 

[Marci jo]

Rick53,
So very sorry about your experience with that sales person. Obviously just trying to close the sale or he simply just didn’t know. Last year one of my lbs shops was slow to get on the ebike movement. They are courteous respectful people but simply lacked ebike knowledge. It’s different this year.

You deserve to be a satisfied customer. I suggest some push back for a refund, partial or all.
- Speak with the manager and calmly but persistently explain your situation.
- Contact Trek directly. They are known for their customer support. One on the advantages of brand name is customer satisfaction.

You are right in your thoughts regarding class one and class three. I have both, and yes, occasionally hitting the max speed of 20 mph on the class one on a nice flat stretch can be a bit annoying.
On the other hand my Vado class three cruises along effortlessly at 17-22 mph. The other day I held 21-24 mph in a stiff 20mph headwind. And I’m an older lady with a trick knee and whimpy legs!

Another thought, depending upon your location, is some test rides at other shops.

Hang in there, it’s worth getting the ebike that fits your needs.
Please post along the way.

 

[Ken M]

What most people just don't realize is that mid-drives when riding at higher speeds do suffer a mechanical efficiency issue due to gearing. Everyone knows that when climbing in low gears they get the job done but lets say you are on a 44T front and an 11T rear sprocket 75% of the torque at the crank (rider + motor torque) is lost due to gearing. This is the same reason a car needs to downshifted when going up steep grades.

This is where so many sales staff are ignorant. They don't realize that if someone does want to spend a lot of time commuting at 20-28mph a hub drive ebike is probably a better solution because the torque is transmitted directly to the rear wheel so at higher speed their overall efficiency will typically be much better than a mid drive and the speed easier to retain by the rider.

Don't expect anyone associated with Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, etc. to tell you this when buying an ebike with their drive system and ebike sales staff rarely have an understanding of gear ratios and mechanical efficiency.

 

[Amazer98]

Ken, I don’t fully buy into your premise that mid-drive motors deliver only 25% of their power (i.e., torque) to the rear wheel. For example, I ride a 52 lb. bike with a Bosch Performance Speed motor with peak torque of 62nm.

That would mean that a maximum of 15 or 16nm torque could be sent to the drive wheel, right? But, of course, I’m not riding at full power all the time. In fact, I’m almost always in Eco or Tour mode... so that implies I’m accessing, what, maybe 8 or 9nm, I would think.

That certainly sounds minimal to me. Yet I can say that Eco gives me a notable boost and Tour lets me really crank up sizable hills at a good clip... so wouldn’t you agree that’s kind of impressive for some small spare newton meters ? And on the flats, the motor also gives a very decent boost... in Eco I pedal happily at 21-23mph, and in Tour I settle in at 26 or 27... so the boost is definitely there at the higher speeds.

I can only conclude that you’re somewhat exaggerating the power drain of using a mid-drive system. I’m sure hub motors have their advantages, but I really like my set-up and find it plenty powerful enough... and the newly upgraded Speed motor is 20% more powerful, so...

 

[GregGritton]

Ken, I don’t fully buy into your premise that mid-drive motors deliver only 25% of their power (i.e., torque) to the rear wheel. For example, I ride a 52 lb. bike with a Bosch Performance Speed motor with peak torque of 62nm.

Technically, Ken M is correct; the 4:1 ratio going from 44T to 11T reduces torque by 75%. However, it is also very misleading. The 75% loss doesn't apply to power, only torque. Power is proportional to torque times speed, and the 44:11 ratio multiplies speed by 4 while reducing torque by 4, maintaining power*. He also didn't mention that hub motors also lose torque at higher speeds, otherwise, their power would be proportional to the speed. To see this, bring up any power curve at https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html.

Torque is important for starting out or going up steep hills. Power is the relevant parameter for traveling at higher speeds.

* The transmission does give some power loss, but it is on the order of 7%, not 75%. Google "bicycle transmission efficiency" for more information.