Chain ring tooth selection

Stefan Mikes said:
Tim, we seem to have discussed that already. My 48t chainring and 11-46t cassette require 132 chain links because the long cage derailleur requires it. Just tell Barry that your Vado 5.0 has the 48th chainring with such and such cassette and such and such derailleur, and that you use this [enter] number of chain links :) Let us not use the formulas.

My Vado:
C = 18.8 in
F = 48
R =46
L = 2* 18.8 + (48/4 + 46/4 + 1) = 62.1. The link length is 0.5" so 62 / 0.5 = 124 links per formula but my chain is 132 links. The formula is just useless.
Click to expand...
But I like formulas! Works well for my Vado with its medium cage. I'll know soon enough if it's correct for my new cassette and cage length change.
 
Stefan Mikes said:
Okay, mine is SGS (long). I like formulas when they work :)
Click to expand...
Agreed. I did add 2 links to the calc for the long cage I'm converting to as recommended on other sites. I'll know if my faith in these chain length formulas is misplaced in a week or so...🤣
 
Just see Tim this. Does it compare to your Vado?

IMG_20200928_231150-01.jpeg


Regarding Barry's remark, I didn't like it at all. Sometimes simple "thank you" does miracles.
 
Stefan Mikes said:
Just see Tim this. Does it compare to your Vado?

View attachment 66832

Regarding Barry's remark, I didn't like it at all. Sometimes simple "thank you" does miracles.
Click to expand...
My derailleur cage is a medium and the cassette is a 11-42t but other than that very close, with one important difference.

Your shifting is apparenty working very well with the 132 link chain. I'm a big believer in not fixing things that aren't broken but with that said I feel your chain length is a bit too long as the derailleur arm is nearly vertical when in the largest cog. This puts lower tension on the chain. This can result in more chain slap and related issues, though the Shadow+ clutch may address this effectively.

When in the largest cog the derailleur cage is typically at a 45° angle. Here's my Vado shifted into the largest cog;
20200928_143710.jpg

The derailleur cage is at close to 45° for adequate tension on the chain.

My Vado chain was 120 links from the factory. I set the replacement chain to the same as I made no gearing changes then. The calcularors produced this same result giving me confidence to use them to order a new longer chain for the gearing changes I'm making.

I'll let you know how it works out!

Edit: I had my MTBing sons take a look at the Vado and talked with them about the gearing change I was making. They both remarked they run even shorter chains on their MTBs with the derailleur cage nearly horizontal when in the largest cog to get even more tension. Apparently this helps on very rough uphill climbs, which I avoid...🤣
 
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Sierratim said:
My derailleur cage is a medium and the cassette is a 11-42t but other than that very close, with one important difference.

Your shifting is apparenty working very well with the 132 link chain. I'm a big believer in not fixing things that aren't broken but with that said I feel your chain length is a bit too long as the derailleur arm is nearly vertical when in the largest cog. This puts lower tension on the chain. This can result in more chain slap and related issues, though the Shadow+ clutch may address this effectively.

When in the largest cog the derailleur cage is typically at a 45° angle. Here's my Vado shifted into the largest cog;
View attachment 66833
The derailleur cage is at close to 45° for adequate tension on the chain.

My Vado chain was 120 links from the factory. I set the replacement chain to the same as I made no gearing changes then. The calcularors produced this same result giving me confidence to use them to order a new longer chain for the gearing changes I'm making.

I'll let you know how it works out!

Edit: I had my MTBing sons take a look at the Vado and talked with them about the gearing change I was making. They both remarked they run even shorter chains on their MTBs with the derailleur cage nearly horizontal when in the largest cog to get even more tension. Apparently this helps on very rough uphill climbs, which I avoid...🤣
Click to expand...
Could be, could be. I can only say the 132 links was the number applied by an experienced mechanic, and I can bet he had counted the number of links in the stock chain before the replacement.

P.S. I will experiment with it after next 1000 miles. I will shorten the existing chain to 126 links and will see how that would work. So far, the Shadow clutch does its work.
 
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I am tip-toeing into this discussion, to say that I followed the route as recommended by Shimano when setting the chain length - largest cog to chainring wrap round plus 2 links. That seemed appropriate anyway, as I bought a Shimano chain and the derailleur is Shimano. TS25 posted the manufacturers web page link on page 4.

Certainly my setup is working well - fingers crossed of course :).
 
@Stefan Mikes - here it is on Youtube - pioneered by Sheldon Brown.
.

When I did it, I did the wrapround plus two, then added the masterlink - if I remember correctly.

Edit: I have just checked my spares box and have 16 links left from the 138L chain, so I have 122 plus the masterlink, but with a 44T chainring.
 
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Stefan Mikes said:
I cannot understand what Shimano are trying to explain... Where's the derailleur in their drawings?
@TS25, one more time please?
Click to expand...

The Shimano dealer document explains it like method 1 in the video @bellandbottle has linked above, i.e. the rear derailleur is out of the measuring game.

I second @Sierratim and IMHO your chain is too long. So there isn't enough tension and your derailleur clutch has to take the job (too much).

Just as a comparison: my Vado 4.0 with 40T front chainring, CS-M7000-11 cassette (42-11) and RD-M8000-GS derailleur but Vado XL-frame has 120 chain links, and using the 42T rear cog is about 55° angle - so your 90° angle using your 46T rear cog is too "loose".

Control: where is your derailleur position when you use cog 11?
 
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Appears KMC is the chain used on the Vado 4 : According to an online dealer I can get the standard E-10 or 4 other chains each better quality : Kinda Pricy though ; Anywhere for $40-$70.00 for 136 links :
 
BarryS said:
Appears KMC is the chain used on the Vado 4 : According to an online dealer I can get the standard E-10 or 4 other chains each better quality : Kinda Pricy though ; Anywhere for $40-$70.00 for 136 links :
Click to expand...

Barry,

I assume this is for the conversion to a 48T chain ring and new 10-speed rear cassette. Keep in mind that based on your own power output, your mid-drive Vado 4 will be at least doubling torque stress over a similarly geared hub drive or non-assisted bike. Further, compared with a non-assisted bike, the dead weight you are moving is at least double as well. SOOO, I wouldn't worry too much about the price of the e-bike rated chain, siince it is the "weak link" in the system. You need a chain that will NOT be subject to premature stretch, causing abnormal wear on cassette and chain-ring. The X10e 136 link can be purchased for $44.95 with 1-day free delivery from Amazon Prime.

I like the KMC X11.93 chain because (at least in my experience) they come with master-links and can be shortened or extended with the standard pin tool I have used since the 1970s. This rather than having to use the very special pin tool that Shimano chains require. I needed a 128 link for my 11-42 x 48T gen 1 Turbo with Shimano Deore XT M-8000 mech. I found that 118 link KMC X11.93 chains were easily purchased for $24.85 from Amazon. In the early days, the X11e was not available, but again I do not have a mid drive, but a hub drive, so a standard chain is adequate. I bought 2 and used the second one to make up the extra 10 links. For awhile, I used 2 x master links, but eventually replaced one with a pin splice. When I needed a new chain, I just purchased a single 118 link chain and spliced in the needed links from my spares.

Doug
 
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