CCX Accident

[AZOldTech]

Ebikes with hydraulic brakes are the only ones that I have heard these types of over the front wheel accidents.

The only locked front wheel over the handlebar accidents I've seen (not heard but seen) were all using mechanical brakes. Does that mean they don't happen on hydraulic brakes? Of course not. You can lock any wheel, front or back hydraulic or not. If that was the case and since mech brakes have been in existence many decades long before hydraulic brakes made their appearance, we never would have seen or heard of locking front wheels. BTW I've been biking for 50years.

 

[TForan]

The only real difference between mechanical & hydraulic disk brakes is the amount of force required to pull the brake lever. Stopping distance is the same for both types. What do you mean by not sufficient

Not in my experience. Huge stopping difference between my stock mechanical discs and the Tektro 4 piston hydraulics.

 

[erider_61]

Do all us bikes have the brake levers the wrong way around? ( front on left) - it seems like a recipe for disaster when people come from a motorbike or normal part of the world. I went so far as to look at pictures of the ccx to confirm, yup, you have a front brake on the left but also a huge mess of cable sticking out to the right side of the bike - could that have caught on something ?

Bicycles have always had the front brake on the left since I was a child...at least here in North America. The only reason the front brake is on the right on motorcycles is because the clutch is on the left. I have ridden both for years so I am used to the differences.

 

[erider_61]

Not in my experience. Huge stopping difference between my stock mechanical discs and the Tektro 4 piston hydraulics.

With equal brake pad surface area, mechanical & hydraulic brakes will have the same stopping distance always. The physics of pad to rotor contact doesn't change from one to the other. Hydraulics allow you to apply maximum pressure with a light touch on the brake lever. You have to squeeze harder with mechanical brakes to apply that same amount of pressure but when applied equally the stopping distance will be exactly the same.

 

[MadManMark]

This is useful information. Thank you!

Except it's not actually true though. I went over the front wheel more than 3 decades ago, on a conventionalSchwinn 10 speed with caliper brakes; I don't know that even was a single commercial ebike or hydraulically braked bike in production then, and yet I was far from the first person to experience that.

I think it better to say that maybe 1) ebikes and 2) hydraulic brakes just make it easier to happen if you're not careful because these two things increase your ability to go faster and stop faster, respectively (note I did not say you can go or stop faster, full stop, I said it increases your ability -- makes it easier, requires less effort -- to do those things)

 

[harryS]

I could not tell you which lever works the front brake w/o having to figure it out, I owned a motorcycle before I ever owned a bike with hand brakes, so when I got my Sears Free Spirit 10 speed in 1973, I switched the lever around. I did that with my next 10 speed, and did it again when I refurbished a mountain bike in the late 1990's. I stopped doing that after 2000 and soon forgot which lever is which. I have to think about working a clutch with my left hand, Then I know.

By the way, my brother's first european motorcycle had the foot brake and foot shofter on opposite sides from my japanese motorcycle. I often had some panicky stops where I hit the shifter instead of the brake when swapping bikes.

I didn't fall off a bike ever as an adult, not until I was 65, trying to sling my camera back over my shoulder. Low speed fall. Since then, I may have fallen. Cannot remember. Ah yes, I slid on mud a year ago. Wiped out. That's twice.

 

[ebott]

Sorry to hear that. Hope you have a speedy recovery. Perhaps avoid the hills for a while when you get back on the bike. Just to get used to the handling.

I always tell people who have just gotten an e-bike to go practice a bit on a big empty parking lot. You need to understand everything about the bike before heading out on the road.

serious braking.

Sorry to hear that. Hope you have a speedy recovery. Perhaps avoid the hills for a while when you get back on the bike. Just to get used to the handling.

I always tell people who have just gotten an e-bike to go practice a bit on a big empty parking lot. You need to understand everything about the bike before heading out on the road.

First of all, a big thank you to all who have wished me a speedy recovery. That is coming along very well and I expect to be back on the CCX as soon as the weather here in northwestern Pa. allows.
I feel like a real idiot. I should have known about brake use and limiting the front brake, especially in the situation I was in. That has never been a problem on my other Walmart specials and riding on the local, almost perfectly flat, bike trails (converted rail lines). But now I will be paying great attention to it and trying to teach myself which brake is which.
Thanks again all, these responses to my post have been wonderful.

 

[ebikemom]

Hey, at least we've given you some reading material to enjoy while you are laid up!

 

[Jelester]

I had an accident on my new CCX (about 100 miles more or less). I was thrown over the handle bars and broke my scapula and have a compression fracture in my spine. The crazy thing about it is I do not know for certain what caused the accident. I was coasting down a tar and chipped road of about a 10 percent grade at no more than 12 MPH. No potholes, no loose gravel. Suddenly I was flying thru the air with the greatest of ease, that is until I hit the road. I assume either the front brake locked up or I applied too much pressure to it and locked it up myself. I have not been able to check the bike out thoroughly yet, but it appears to be undamaged except for a few scratches on the rear rack and the brakes appear to be ok just moving the bike around in the garage.
Has anybody else experienced a similar incident? I swore I did not overly pressure the brake, but then again, there I went. I know the hydraulic brakes are super efficient but are they too efficient? Other than being careful not to overdo braking in the future, is there anything else I can do to avoid another incident like this from ever happening again. I am 77 years old and this really took a lot out of me. I don't need another hit like this.

At 12 MPH I just use the rear brake.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Except it's not actually true though.

Except it is TRUE. Marsh and McClellan, the largest bike shop and ebike insurer, underwritten by Northwestern Mutual, has all the statistics on this. Hydraulics, hands down (no pun), are the worst. Caliper rim brakes, while far larger in use worldwide, have fewer issues per 1000 bike accidents caused by brakes. If you are going downhill, and not properly positioned, and you inadvertently grab too much brake (quite easy to do, since you can basically activate them like moving a feather), you are going over the top. Simple physics here. Hydraulics have far more pressure capability than any mechanical (cable) brake ever will. Cable tension can give. There is no forgiveness in hydraulics, unless you spring a leak or an air bubble in the line.

While there are a number of perceived and widely cited advantages to disc brakes ,and hydraulicly activated disc brakes, not too many people these days look at the other side of the equation. Everyone today is all about the hype of hydraulic disc brakes, due primarily (and only) their quick stopping power, and easy movement of the lever by even weak handed people.

So while we are on the topic, Lots of flawed assumptions are made about rim brakes vs discs.

Here are some other disadvantages of disc brakes in general that are rarely if ever pointed out by any bike shop. (This list is Per Sheldon Brown)
Disadvantages

• A front disc brake stresses one blade of the front fork very heavily, requiring a stronger, heavier fork, resulting in a bumpier ride with a non-suspension fork, and if a fork isn't quite rigid enough, producing 'brake steer".
• Disc brakes require special fittings on the frame and fork, and special hubs.
• A front disc brake caliper behind the fork blade generates a powerful force tending to loosen a quick release and pull the wheel out of the fork. A special hub, and a fork with a hole rather than a slot for the axle, are needed to surmount this problem.
• Disc brakes and associated parts generally result in a heavier bicycle than with rim brakes. This is less of an issue with carbon-fiber rims, as the rims do not have to be designed for braking.
• Disc brakes are more complicated, expensive and difficult to maintain than rim brakes or drum brakes. This is especially so with hydraulically-actuated disc brakes, the best-performing ones.
• Some disc brakes are grabby. This problem is more likely if dirt gets trapped between the calipers.
• Disc brakes can interfere with baggage racks and fender stays.
• The disc is vulnerable and easily bent. Other hub or rim brakes do not have this weakness. caution is needed with bike racks.
• Hub flange spacing is often reduced, resulting in a weaker wheel. Wider overlocknut distancecan resolve this problem, at the expense of incompatibility and proliferation of standards.
• It can be difficult to avoid calipers' rubbing on the rotor when the brake is not in use, resulting in some drag and noise.
• Disc brakes can howl when wet (though they work better in the wet than rim brakes).
• Pads wear very quickly compared with the shoes of rim brakes. It is a good idea to carry spare pads on a long ride, especially under muddy conditions. Fortunately, pad replacement is relatively easy.
• The disc gets extremely hot. It can cause injury if touched, and melt nearby plastic or cloth items. Care must also be taken to use the correct brake fluid with a hydraulically-actuated disc brake, so it does not boil, resulting in loss of braking power. No you cannot just use any brake fluid in hydraulic brakes. Some are specifically and only mineral oil. Some require other specific oils. You need to know this if you are going to bleed or replace the oil. And if you brake a hydraulic cable while out on a ride, good luck fixing it quickly.
• There have been complaints of disc rotors' causing injury in crashes (as can chainwheels...) - people falling on them and severing body parts.

All in all, disc brakes are advantageous on bicycles which have front suspension and are ridden in mud and snow. A large rear disk brake can serve well as a downhill drag brake on a tandem or cargo bike. Disc brakes are less suitable for bicycles where light weight is most important and the rim can do double duty as a brake disc.

Avid cyclist and bicycle customizer Bruce Ingle has disc brakes on a fatbike he rides in winter, but he also says...

"I'm baffled at the appeal of disc brakes for road bikes at this point, practically speaking. I can understand the allure of just swapping wheelsets just to change tire width without changing outside diameter and not needing aluminum rim braking surfaces, but disc brakes howl when wet and they're only slightly less maddening than a chain case to remove and replace a wheel. I've yet to do so without a work stand and tools, since the caliper has required re-centering every time the rear wheel is replaced. (this is true and most amateurs dont get this). Rim and drum brakes don't have this problem, and they can be used with existing framesets."


And no folks, the difference between using them on a regular bike versus an ebike isn't really very much at all. (unless you are someone insisting on Class 3 ebike and riding around at 28 MPH all the time). E-Bike riders do not generally go too much faster than regular bike riders and even if there is a slightly higher speed average the difference between them is negligible in terms of brake type needed - in otherwords you dont need to go into a bike shop and say "OMG, I gotta have hydraulic disc brakes to stop my ebike". While most ebikes are coming with them anyway, especially for how high priced many of them are today, its not an absolute that you have to have them, and that rim brakes aren't sufficient. You are not trying to stop a 5000 lb car, where having disc brakes that are hydraulic is pretty damn important. Professional or even just avid cyclists who are in good shape, often travel at much higher speeds than the average 'joe or jane' that rides an ebike, and many of those folks still use and buy bikes with rim brakes.

Its funny how the power of US typical marketing hype does such a wonderful job in America these days about just any technology out there - I have naive people come into my shop asking me why they even have rim brakes anymore. The above is in part why. SMH.

P.S. Bike and ebike Oem's make more margin by adding disc brakes, and especially HYDRAULIC disc brakes to your bike or ebike. That is a fact. Think about how you really ride, and don't just automatically assume, that its a cheap bike or inferior ebike, if it has rim brakes on it. And that decision may even help minimize the risk of you going over the top of your handlebars when you least expect it.

 

[Over50]

....While there are a number of perceived and widely cited advantages to disc brakes ,and hydraulicly activated disc brakes, not too many people these days look at the other side of the equation. Everyone today is all about the hype of hydraulic disc brakes, due primarily (and only) their quick stopping power, and easy movement of the lever by even weak handed people...

I'm riding on wet roads quite often. I think I'm not giving up my disc brakes for rim brakes anytime soon ... I'm a flatlander now but grew up a highlander ... no way I'd go back to rim brakes on those hills particularly in spotty weather.

 

[harryS]

And no folks, the difference between using them on a regular bike versus an ebike isn't really very much at all. (unless you are someone insisting on Class 3 ebike and riding around at 28 MPH all the time). E-Bike riders do not generally go too much faster than regular bike riders and even if there is a slightly higher speed average the difference between them is negligible in terms of brake type needed -.

Nicely said, Mike.

 

[Philly5834]

So sorry to hear about this, and just want to wish you a speedy recovery. As an over eighty senior, I know that it's no picnic to have a fall like that!

 

[Nova Haibike]

Its funny how the power of US typical marketing hype does such a wonderful job in America these days about just any technology out there - I have naive people come into my shop asking me why they even have rim brakes anymore. The above is in part why. SMH.

The industry purposely obsoletes older systems in favor of new ones in order to sell more stuff. Not just brakes, but just about everything on a bike.

 

[Chopperbill]

Mike confirmed my thoughts. My RadRover with mechanical discs works great for me, see no reason for anything “better”. I swapped my cables to make is comparable to my motorcycle, made it so I didn’t have to use that second for me to think about which was front or back. No way do I want my brakes to lock up, dangerous on two wheel. Better feel control with manual brakes vs. “power” brakes for me.

 

[Norwin]

Except it is TRUE. Marsh and McClellan, the largest bike shop and ebike insurer, underwritten by Northwestern Mutual, has all the statistics on this. Hydraulics, hands down (no pun), are the worst. Caliper rim brakes, while far larger in use worldwide, have fewer issues per 1000 bike accidents caused by brakes. If you are going downhill, and not properly positioned, and you inadvertently grab too much brake (quite easy to do, since you can basically activate them like moving a feather), you are going over the top. Simple physics here. Hydraulics have far more pressure capability than any mechanical (cable) brake ever will. Cable tension can give. There is no forgiveness in hydraulics, unless you spring a leak or an air bubble in the line.

While there are a number of perceived and widely cited advantages to disc brakes ,and hydraulicly activated disc brakes, not too many people these days look at the other side of the equation. Everyone today is all about the hype of hydraulic disc brakes, due primarily (and only) their quick stopping power, and easy movement of the lever by even weak handed people.

So while we are on the topic, Lots of flawed assumptions are made about rim brakes vs discs.

Here are some other disadvantages of disc brakes in general that are rarely if ever pointed out by any bike shop. (This list is Per Sheldon Brown)
Disadvantages

• A front disc brake stresses one blade of the front fork very heavily, requiring a stronger, heavier fork, resulting in a bumpier ride with a non-suspension fork, and if a fork isn't quite rigid enough, producing 'brake steer".
• Disc brakes require special fittings on the frame and fork, and special hubs.
• A front disc brake caliper behind the fork blade generates a powerful force tending to loosen a quick release and pull the wheel out of the fork. A special hub, and a fork with a hole rather than a slot for the axle, are needed to surmount this problem.
• Disc brakes and associated parts generally result in a heavier bicycle than with rim brakes. This is less of an issue with carbon-fiber rims, as the rims do not have to be designed for braking.
• Disc brakes are more complicated, expensive and difficult to maintain than rim brakes or drum brakes. This is especially so with hydraulically-actuated disc brakes, the best-performing ones.
• Some disc brakes are grabby. This problem is more likely if dirt gets trapped between the calipers.
• Disc brakes can interfere with baggage racks and fender stays.
• The disc is vulnerable and easily bent. Other hub or rim brakes do not have this weakness. caution is needed with bike racks.
• Hub flange spacing is often reduced, resulting in a weaker wheel. Wider overlocknut distancecan resolve this problem, at the expense of incompatibility and proliferation of standards.
• It can be difficult to avoid calipers' rubbing on the rotor when the brake is not in use, resulting in some drag and noise.
• Disc brakes can howl when wet (though they work better in the wet than rim brakes).
• Pads wear very quickly compared with the shoes of rim brakes. It is a good idea to carry spare pads on a long ride, especially under muddy conditions. Fortunately, pad replacement is relatively easy.
• The disc gets extremely hot. It can cause injury if touched, and melt nearby plastic or cloth items. Care must also be taken to use the correct brake fluid with a hydraulically-actuated disc brake, so it does not boil, resulting in loss of braking power. No you cannot just use any brake fluid in hydraulic brakes. Some are specifically and only mineral oil. Some require other specific oils. You need to know this if you are going to bleed or replace the oil. And if you brake a hydraulic cable while out on a ride, good luck fixing it quickly.
• There have been complaints of disc rotors' causing injury in crashes (as can chainwheels...) - people falling on them and severing body parts.

All in all, disc brakes are advantageous on bicycles which have front suspension and are ridden in mud and snow. A large rear disk brake can serve well as a downhill drag brake on a tandem or cargo bike. Disc brakes are less suitable for bicycles where light weight is most important and the rim can do double duty as a brake disc.

Avid cyclist and bicycle customizer Bruce Ingle has disc brakes on a fatbike he rides in winter, but he also says...

"I'm baffled at the appeal of disc brakes for road bikes at this point, practically speaking. I can understand the allure of just swapping wheelsets just to change tire width without changing outside diameter and not needing aluminum rim braking surfaces, but disc brakes howl when wet and they're only slightly less maddening than a chain case to remove and replace a wheel. I've yet to do so without a work stand and tools, since the caliper has required re-centering every time the rear wheel is replaced. (this is true and most amateurs dont get this). Rim and drum brakes don't have this problem, and they can be used with existing framesets."


And no folks, the difference between using them on a regular bike versus an ebike isn't really very much at all. (unless you are someone insisting on Class 3 ebike and riding around at 28 MPH all the time). E-Bike riders do not generally go too much faster than regular bike riders and even if there is a slightly higher speed average the difference between them is negligible in terms of brake type needed - in otherwords you dont need to go into a bike shop and say "OMG, I gotta have hydraulic disc brakes to stop my ebike". While most ebikes are coming with them anyway, especially for how high priced many of them are today, its not an absolute that you have to have them, and that rim brakes aren't sufficient. You are not trying to stop a 5000 lb car, where having disc brakes that are hydraulic is pretty damn important. Professional or even just avid cyclists who are in good shape, often travel at much higher speeds than the average 'joe or jane' that rides an ebike, and many of those folks still use and buy bikes with rim brakes.

Its funny how the power of US typical marketing hype does such a wonderful job in America these days about just any technology out there - I have naive people come into my shop asking me why they even have rim brakes anymore. The above is in part why. SMH.

P.S. Bike and ebike Oem's make more margin by adding disc brakes, and especially HYDRAULIC disc brakes to your bike or ebike. That is a fact. Think about how you really ride, and don't just automatically assume, that its a cheap bike or inferior ebike, if it has rim brakes on it. And that decision may even help minimize the risk of you going over the top of your handlebars when you least expect it.

_______________________

Hi Mike,

You didn't know you were answering my question.

However, whilst my questions appear elsewhere on this forum, you certainly now cleared this up this 'brake' question, for me.

My best,

Norwin