Canada to restrict class 3 ebikes to 20mph

[MikeyG]

no, it doesn't. nobody has ever suggested the class or other type definitions of bicycles should use auto-brakes. yet another specious and dishonest argument, this time a straw man.

nobody is preventing you from riding fast downhill. in that circumstance, many bicycles will be going fairly fast, a fact acknowledged by the common-sense design practice of only having dedicated bike lanes UPHILL in many urban environments. downhill in an urban environment you really don't need them as much because bikes are as fast as cars, and the most common kinds of accidents (right hooks, passing, rear ending) simply won't happen.

No, but someone is preventing me from riding fast on level ground or uphill, which is where I
want the speed assist.

 

[Ken M]

No, but someone is preventing me from riding fast on level ground or uphill, which is where I
want the speed assist.

I do believe that we can't expect to ride 80mph+ eMotorcycles on sidewalks but it seems rational to allow the assist speed to mimic what the top typical speed a bike is ridden and still be considered a bike. I believe there is adequate data that suggests that is upwards of 50kph/30mph. Bikes / ebikes / LSEBs are still considered vehicles so anyone riding recklessly still risks legal consequences but an assist cut-off at 20mph is simply not an adequate assist speed to be an effective transportation solution (I know some on this tread are probably only considering ebikes for recreation which is an entirely different solution in my opinion because we need more people out of cars).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

No, but someone is preventing me from riding fast on level ground or uphill, which is where I
want the speed assist.

Buy a motorcycle. Could be an electric one.

 

[jabberwocky]

So I see you are still arguing that assist speeds for ebikes should probably be 20mph (or maybe 15mph like in Europe). We all know that higher speeds on interstate highways increased the risks of serious injuries or death but if we limit car speeds to 20mph most people would not buy or use them because they would be a far less effective transportation solution. We must look at the bigger picture and not simply say it's not as safe to go 25mph as it is 20mph as justification for Class 1 assist speed on an ebike.

Uh, what? I'm not arguing for a specific assist limit, just noting that energy does increase much faster than speed does in response to someone who was asking about studies for "safe" speeds. That is something that has been studied in the automotive realm.

If you're talking potential to injure pedestrians, 20mph is much more than 15mph, 25mph is much more than 20mph, 30mph is much more than 25mph, and on and on.

Your argument here totally ignores have fast a non-assist bike can go down hill. Why not suggest that we have auto-brakes that prevent fast speeds down inclines if the user group argument is robust.

I'm also ignoring the fact that bikes can go over 100mph if you drop them out of a helicopter.

 

[jabberwocky]

I do believe that we can't expect to ride 80mph+ eMotorcycles on sidewalks but it seems rational to allow the assist speed to mimic what the top typical speed a bike is ridden and still be considered a bike. I believe there is adequate data that suggests that is upwards of 50kph/30mph. Bikes / ebikes / LSEBs are still considered vehicles so anyone riding recklessly still risks legal consequences but an assist cut-off at 20mph is simply not an adequate assist speed to be an effective transportation solution (I know some on this tread are probably only considering ebikes for recreation which is an entirely different solution in my opinion because we need more people out of cars).

I'm genuinely curious how you arrive at the conclusion that a 20mph cutoff makes an ebike inadequate as a transportation solution. Because I have several friends who are mostly or entirely car free, and of the ones that even have ebikes (probably less than half) they have utilitarian class 1/2 cargo bikes and I don't think any have complained about lack of speed. I lived without a car in suburbia for 18 months or so in 2010-2011 and managed without an ebike at all.

I personally think the utility of an ebike is to enable normal cycling speeds (which, contrary to your claims here are generally very low, in the 10-13mph average range) with less exertion, fewer issues with hills and to enable the carrying of more load without issue. Granted, most of my friends are dedicated cyclists, but the ones with e-cargo bikes generally got them to 1: run errands where they need to carry a load (groceries) or 2) schlep their young kids around.

I do think theres a split between people who moved into electric bikes from normal bikes and people who got into electric bikes from cars. If you've been riding normal bikes for a long time, even a basic hub motor class 1 feels really fast. If you come from cars, even higher power ebikes feel slow because you're used to car speeds and not used to riding on roads as a lower speed vehicle.

 

[GizmoEV]

If you've been riding normal bikes for a long time, even a basic hub motor class 1 feels really fast.

As one who has come from normal bikes, I disagree with your assertion.

 

[kevinmccune]

I'm genuinely curious how you arrive at the conclusion that a 20mph cutoff makes an ebike inadequate as a transportation solution. Because I have several friends who are mostly or entirely car free, and of the ones that even have ebikes (probably less than half) they have utilitarian class 1/2 cargo bikes and I don't think any have complained about lack of speed. I lived without a car in suburbia for 18 months or so in 2010-2011 and managed without an ebike at all.

I personally think the utility of an ebike is to enable normal cycling speeds (which, contrary to your claims here are generally very low, in the 10-13mph average range) with less exertion, fewer issues with hills and to enable the carrying of more load without issue. Granted, most of my friends are dedicated cyclists, but the ones with e-cargo bikes generally got them to 1: run errands where they need to carry a load (groceries) or 2) schlep their young kids around.

I do think theres a split between people who moved into electric bikes from normal bikes and people who got into electric bikes from cars. If you've been riding normal bikes for a long time, even a basic hub motor class 1 feels really fast. If you come from cars, even higher power ebikes feel slow because you're used to car speeds and not used to riding on roads as a lower speed vehicle.

Yes, thats the way it felt to this "Commoner".

 

[Ken M]

Uh, what? I'm not arguing for a specific assist limit, just noting that energy does increase much faster than speed does in response to someone who was asking about studies for "safe" speeds. That is something that has been studied in the automotive realm.

If you're talking potential to injure pedestrians, 20mph is much more than 15mph, 25mph is much more than 20mph, 30mph is much more than 25mph, and on and on.



I'm also ignoring the fact that bikes can go over 100mph if you drop them out of a helicopter.

So you are equating a bike being ridden down a hill to being dropped from a helicopter. Wow, that is logical.

 

[Ken M]

I'm genuinely curious how you arrive at the conclusion that a 20mph cutoff makes an ebike inadequate as a transportation solution

I think many potential riders interested in substituting for a car occasionally to frequently would see the commuting value of an assist speed above 20mph (I wonder why millions of speed dongle hacks were sold in Europe to defeat the 25kph assist cut offs on EU spec ebikes). I'm not suggesting that the speed "limit" on mixed use paths where bikes and pedestrians mix be above 20mph but a speed limit is not the same as limiting the assist speed of an ebike that can also be used on road side bike paths where a faster speed can actually be safer. You probably argue with all those on this forum that claim that reducing the speed delta from faster cars going past bikers in a bike lane actually can improve safety (it's my understanding that most bike accident deaths are bikers being struck from behind by a motorized vehicle that veers into a bike lane).

 

[TPEHAK]

From behind and from left side by traffic and from right side and from front by turning vehicles from traffic or from intersections. I was close to such situations multiple times and I saw such accidents. Now, when I have 3000W bike no way I'm gonna ride in the bike lane or on the side of the road - only in the middle of the road with the traffic to be as visible as possible and to not provoke drivers to pass me close to me.

And you also have to deal with the vehicles parked on the curb or on the bike lane which forces you to merge with the traffic and if you have low power 20 mph restricted e-bike that is where huge danger comes from also.

Another problem is in 25 mph zonen with 2 lanes the right lane is usually occupied by parked vehicles. Some bicyclists ride in between the lanes to not piss off the drivers in the left lane by 20 mph speed to let them pass. But doing so they put themselves in huge danger of hitting the suddenly opened car door in front of them. Again, no way I'm gonna ride in between the lanes. I need power and speed to safely ride in the middle of the lane with the traffic.

When I used 250W bike I rode it on the sidewalk instead of bike lane because of this is too dangerous to ride bike in the bike lane.

 

[Ken M]

When I used 250W bike I rode it on the sidewalk instead of bike lane because of this is too dangerous to ride bike in the bike lane.

I think this echos the feelings of a lot of riders in bike lanes when sharing the road with cars....a bit higher assist speed can be much safer.

 

[Sparky731]

It's funny that I have engaged in this assist speed debate for some time but it seems the same people are arguing for the 20mph assist limit.

I wonder how many people buying an ebike if given the choice between a Class 1 or Class 3 (same exact bike otherwise at the same price) would pick the Class 1?

I totally agree having owned a class 1 that I much prefer my class 3. I am 72 yrs old and I am a sprinter and like to go fast although ALWAYS slow down when encountering others on foot, bike, or car. Just ride smart on the bike of your choice.

 

[Ken M]

I totally agree having owned a class 1 that I much prefer my class 3. I am 72 yrs old and I am a sprinter and like to go fast although ALWAYS slow down when encountering others on foot, bike, or car. Just ride smart on the bike of your choice.

Those I debate on this forum seem to want to make your assist speed choice for you by taking away the choice to buy or ride anything but a class 1 ebike (it's not just speed they ??? it's also having a throttle on an ebike) and just riding it slower when encountering pedestrians on mixed use paths. They seem to think that having a faster assist means the rider is always riding at that speed.

 

[gromike]

In my experience 20 mph is a sweet spot to ride. This is from a guy who'll do 30+ mph in the line of traffic. As I'm also a pedestrian I must say bicycle operation in close proximity to pedestrians has always been a problem, ebikes only make it worse on mixed-use trails. I am of the opinion that if you ride with cars you should be able to go as fast as you want, but if your bicycle is allowed on mixed-use trails an enforced speed limit is a good thing. I also have no problem with an operator's license for high speed ebikes as I already have a motorcycle license.

 

[Ken M]

In my experience 20 mph is a sweet spot to ride. This is from a guy who'll do 30+ mph in the line of traffic. As I'm also a pedestrian I must say bicycle operation in close proximity to pedestrians has always been a problem, ebikes only make it worse on mixed-use trails. I am of the opinion that if you ride with cars you should be able to go as fast as you want, but if your bicycle is allowed on mixed-use trails an enforced speed limit is a good thing. I also have no problem with an operator's license for high speed ebikes as I already have a motorcycle license.

What if you had to register and insure any ebike that assisted faster than 20mph (this is already the case in Europe for any ebike faster than 15mph)?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

What if you had to register and insure any ebike that assisted faster than 20mph (this is already the case in Europe for any ebike faster than 15mph)?

Been there, done that. It makes your 45 km/h e-bike a street legal moped equipped with numerous safety bells & whistles (required from the moped) such as premium brakes, tyres, automotive grade lighting, and a horn - and you would have to wear the helmet (ALWAYS WEAR THE HELMET!) You would not be allowed to use bike paths or MUPs (using bike path and MUPs by L1e-B mopeds is only allowed in Denmark). The insurance fee is around US$28 a year.

 

[J.R.]

Classes, speed limits and tickets are yesterday's problems. In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned geofencing and things are far more advanced than people think.

From California: Analyzing the Potential of Geofencing for Electric Bicycles and Scooters in the Public Right of Way (Link to cal dot gov)

The California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) is investigating whether geofencing could be used to:

• Prevent e-bikes and e-scooters from entering access-controlled highways and other specified locations.
• Limit the devices’ maximum speed in certain areas, allowing access to some bike paths and cycle tracks where they typically would not be allowed.
• Provide designated parking areas for scooters so they are less likely to be left in the public right of way.

Agencies With Geofencing Experience Five local jurisdictions reported having experience with geofencing to control e-bike and e-scooter use:

California
• City of San Diego.
• Los Angeles Department of Transportation.

Colorado
• Denver Public Works.
• City of Fort Collins.

Oregon
• Portland Bureau of Transportation. (Note: While not included in the survey's distribution list, this agency and another local agency in Oregon (City of Eugene) completed the survey.)

BMW and GM have been working on geofencing for years.

No wonder geofencing plays such a “central role” in these AMBY concepts: BMW already has everything it needs to make it a reality for e-bikes.
A geofencing solution that caps power delivery to S-pedelec pedals within the city limits would put these fast e-bikes back onto the protected bike paths where they belong. It would also help drive the adoption of S-pedelecs as great alternatives to cars for long commutes to and from the city. And that, in turn, would help European cities achieve their environmental goals that led to the creation of these low emission zones in the first place. (Link to The Verge article)

Neuron Ebikes:

Neuron e-bikes can generally be ridden up to 25km/h. However, there are some areas marked as Low Speed Zones and they will slow the maximum speed down, generally to 15km/h. These Low Speed Zones are visible on the map on the home screen of the Neuron app.

We recommend familiarising yourself with our Geofences before starting your ride and planning your journey accordingly. You can find out more about Geofences here.

Please remember to always slow down and give way to pedestrians. On shared paths you should keep to the left and sound your bell when passing pedestrians. Please refer to our Riding Rules for more information.

The list of thing to read about ebike geofencing seems endless.

 

[kevinmccune]

Classes, speed limits and tickets are yesterday's problems. In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned geofencing and things are far more advanced than people think.

From California: Analyzing the Potential of Geofencing for Electric Bicycles and Scooters in the Public Right of Way (Link to cal dot gov)

The California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) is investigating whether geofencing could be used to:

• Prevent e-bikes and e-scooters from entering access-controlled highways and other specified locations.
• Limit the devices’ maximum speed in certain areas, allowing access to some bike paths and cycle tracks where they typically would not be allowed.
• Provide designated parking areas for scooters so they are less likely to be left in the public right of way.

Agencies With Geofencing Experience Five local jurisdictions reported having experience with geofencing to control e-bike and e-scooter use:

California
• City of San Diego.
• Los Angeles Department of Transportation.

Colorado
• Denver Public Works.
• City of Fort Collins.

Oregon
• Portland Bureau of Transportation. (Note: While not included in the survey's distribution list, this agency and another local agency in Oregon (City of Eugene) completed the survey.)

BMW and GM have been working on geofencing for years.

No wonder geofencing plays such a “central role” in these AMBY concepts: BMW already has everything it needs to make it a reality for e-bikes.
A geofencing solution that caps power delivery to S-pedelec pedals within the city limits would put these fast e-bikes back onto the protected bike paths where they belong. It would also help drive the adoption of S-pedelecs as great alternatives to cars for long commutes to and from the city. And that, in turn, would help European cities achieve their environmental goals that led to the creation of these low emission zones in the first place. (Link to The Verge article)

Neuron Ebikes:

Neuron e-bikes can generally be ridden up to 25km/h. However, there are some areas marked as Low Speed Zones and they will slow the maximum speed down, generally to 15km/h. These Low Speed Zones are visible on the map on the home screen of the Neuron app.

We recommend familiarising yourself with our Geofences before starting your ride and planning your journey accordingly. You can find out more about Geofences here.

Please remember to always slow down and give way to pedestrians. On shared paths you should keep to the left and sound your bell when passing pedestrians. Please refer to our Riding Rules for more information.

The list of thing to read about ebike geofencing seems endless.

Is this geofencing a thing tied into the GPS system? I have been wondering for years why it wasnt done on schoolbuses in Mountainous areas, a bit off topic not far though.

 

[J.R.]

Is this geofencing a thing tied into the GPS system? I have been wondering for years why it wasnt done on schoolbuses in Mountainous areas, a bit off topic not far though.

Spot on and on topic. Many ebikes, like Stromer, already have the technology included to geofence the bikes. For less than $100 this tech can be added to any ebike and for less than the salary of a couple of cops and the cost of their cars and equipment a municipality could control every ebike within its jurisdiction. I think there would be constitutional court challenges in the US, but considering bicycles and ebikes are listed as consumer products and not transportation vehicles, it's uncertain how these court cases would be decided.

20 years ago, I had an expensive GPS on my personal boat, but consumer GPS units were considered so unreliable the Coast Guard wouldn't allow you to use them to report a downed boat or person overboard. Today it's the complete opposite! People and their map skills are considered unreliable. Consider Google maps and real time location and speed; very reliable today. Mass produced, standardized ebike units might cost a few dollars.

 

[PedalUma]

I learned three years ago not to respond to Ken. Every time I would knock down the living dead, the zombie threads would drag themselves along whilst missing appendages or even a head. I can go fast in Class 3 but mostly don't, I am normally around 13-15 mph. I just have that backup stuff there for emergency, like money in the bank. The real problem is when a non-riding tourist gets on an overpowered throttle bike in the US. In the EU there is collective social medicine, high speed crashes are painful and expensive; so, who pays? That is who gets a say. Around here the big downhills have rusted barbed wire fences on both sides. That is motivation enough for me to take it easy.