Brose releases 48V system motor and a concept motor with an integrated stepless gear system

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Interesting developments - https://ebike-mtb.com/en/brose-drive-3-peak-motor-48v-system-and-concept-drive/
Now, we have three contenders in the integrated motor + gearbox category.

1. Valeo - Cyclee
2. Pinion - MGU
3. Brose - Peak3

 

[juggernaut]

Jesus……look at the size of it! Upside…..now 48 volts

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@Ravi Kempaiah,

Two questions:

• Has anyone tested the carbon fibre belt durability under the high stress of the full torque provided by the MGU motor?
• What about any possible wear of the rear cog?

 

[Rás Cnoic]

@Ravi Kempaiah,

Two questions:

• Has anyone tested the carbon fibre belt durability under the high stress of the full torque provided by the MGU motor?
• What about any possible wear of the rear cog?

Gates who make the majority of belts are 100 years old and make belts for bikes cars and motorbikes. I don't think there is any worry there. The general rule of thumb is one belt lasts 3 times the life of a chain. Replacing a lightweight gates belt is easy and pretty cheap anyway. Long distance cyclists often pack a spare as its clean and much lighter then packing a spare chain. As for wear, the belt against the cog may have some wear over time, a very long time comparatively, but nothing like a steel chain ripping into steel cassettes under motor torque as happens now. Just been on the emtb message boards on Pinkbike and Singletrack and there is huge enthusiasm for a MGU as they are sick of replacing expensive Sram & Shimano drivetrains.

The Pinion engineers come from the motor industry originally, they were Porshe gearbox engineers so the extra torque of an ebike motor won't phase them.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

From that article about Brose. this is good news:

Behind the scenes, Brose are also keeping busy. The motor manufacturer has announced that partners will have access to an enhanced service network in the future, featuring a cloud-based diagnostic tool. At this stage, it is difficult to estimate how this will impact you as an end customer. Brose is also introducing a remanufacturing process for old ebike drives, known as Reman Drive (Reman being short for Remanufactured). The idea is to breathe new life into old drives, which, according to Brose, not only conserves resources but also reduces at least 21 kg of CO2 emissions per motor.

I'm glad about that. When I got my SL motor replaced under warranty and the bike shop said a huge number of motors get returned this way, I wondered what happened them. Good to know they are being reconditioned. It makes sense for motor manufacturers to sell them on perhaps to customers out of warranty needing replacement, so you get a decent discount. And at least it's not landfill.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Gates who make the majority of belts are 100 years old and make belts for bikes cars and motorbikes. I don't think there is any worry there. The general rule of thumb is one belt lasts 3 times the life of a chain. Replacing a lightweight gates belt is easy and pretty cheap anyway. Long distance cyclists often pack a spare as its clean and much lighter then packing a spare chain. As for wear, the belt against the cog may have some wear over time, a very long time comparatively, but nothing like a steel chain ripping into steel cassettes under motor torque as happens now. Just been on the emtb message boards on Pinkbike and Singletrack and there is huge enthusiasm for a MGU as they are sick of replacing expensive Sram & Shimano drivetrains.

The Pinion engineers come from the motor industry originally, they were Porshe gearbox engineers so the extra torque of an ebike motor won't phase them.

Thanks for answering that.

@Stefan Mikes see images below. Harley Davidson Motorcycles have been using them for many years, and so are Zero Motorcycles.
Pinion engineers know what they are doing.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Thanks for answering that.

@Stefan Mikes see images below. Harley Davidson Motorcycles have been using them for many years, and so are Zero Motorcycles.
Pinion engineers know what they are doing.

Yes, it is a motorcycle.
You did not answer my questions.

 

[Petropoliskhan]

Yes, it is a motorcycle.
You did not answer my questions.

Hi Stefan! Ravi and others have answered your question. These have have been around for many decades . Used in automotive and industrial setting successfully. As for bikes check these out:

Yes they're extremely reliable and have been thoroughly , extensively tested in the harshest conditions.
As for the MGU implementation, Pinion just announced, presented it. It is a new product which I am sure has been in development for many years and surely has undergone rigorous testing. But just like any new tech, there will probably be some issues at some point or another but this is a serious company with a proven track record for providing gearboxes of the highest quality. I am confident they will do what it takes to not damage their stellar reputation.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hi Stefan! Ravi and others have answered your second question. These have have been around for many decades . Used in automotive and industrial setting successfully. As for bikes check these out:

Yes they're extremely reliable and have been thoroughly , extensively tested in the harshest conditions.

E-bike is not a bicycle.
E-bike is not a motorcycle.
My questions were what about the strength of the bicycle grade Gates belt under the full torque of the gearbox mid-drive motor; and what about the rear cog wear under the full torque of the combined motor and pedal power.

No answer: No-one knows yet.

 

[Petropoliskhan]

E-bike is not a bicycle.
E-bike is not a motorcycle.
My questions were what about the strength of the bicycle grade Gates belt under the full torque of the gearbox mid-drive motor; and what about the rear cog wear under the full torque of the combined motor and pedal power.

No answer: No-one knows yet.

come on man... you're smarter than this.... give it a rest. Stop bickering about my choice of words . You know perfectly well what I meant. It is beneath you.
If they (the belts) work on motorcycles with combustion engines, electric motors with orders of magnitude more torque than any ebike, e-bike, speed pedelecs, spedelecs whatever. It obviously can handle whatever their motor will output.
You're also aware that they've successfully been in use, for years ,by many brands that you know well, with mid and hub drive configurations with loads of torque

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You know perfectly well what I meant.

No, I do not know. Any hard data?

• Motorcycles are heavy and built of big, durable parts.
• Bicycles are lightweight but except performing racers, the cyclists leg power is not that great.
• E-bikes have to be reasonably lightweight but the electric motor pumps the power worth legs of a Pro Team racer.
• E-bike is not only the motor and drivetrain. It is a system full of electronic gremlins.
• Next come the big players, and it is their business decision how much they would put on the stake.
• Currently, there is a single model of an e-bike with the Pinion MGU from a small company. No one knows how MGU e-bikes would prove in the longer run. The time will show.

Yet, now everybody is excited just because they have heard of yet another "greatest invention". Let me be skeptical.

I hope Petropolishkan you will be an early adopter and report your usage status after one year and some 5,000 miles ridden.

P.S. It took years until cyclists embraced hydraulic disk brakes. Many roadies still use V-brakes. While hydraulic disk brakes on cars and motorcycles have a long history. Tubeless has been in the automotive business for many years. Still, most of us rides tubed tyres on bicycles. Why? (Do you ride tubeless yourself?)

 

[Petropoliskhan]

No, I do not know. Any hard data?

• Motorcycles are heavy and built of big, durable parts.
• Bicycles are lightweight but except performing racers, the cyclists leg power is not that great.
• E-bikes have to be reasonably lightweight but the electric motor pumps the power worth legs of a Pro Team racer.
• E-bike is not only the motor and drivetrain. It is a system full of electronic gremlins.
• Next come the big players, and it is their business decision how much they would put on the stake.
• Currently, there is a single model of an e-bike with the Pinion MGU from a small company. No one knows how MGU e-bikes would prove in the longer run. The time will show.

Yet, now everybody is excited just because they have heard of yet another "greatest invention". Let me be skeptical.

I hope Petropolishkan you will be an early adopter and report your usage status after one year and some 5,000 miles ridden.

P.S. It took years until cyclists embraced hydraulic disk brakes. Many roadies still use V-brakes. While hydraulic disk brakes on cars and motorcycles have a long history. Tubeless has been in the automotive business for many years. Still, most of us rides tubed tyres on bicycles. Why? (Do you ride tubeless yourself?)

Yep sure , go ahead and be skeptical all you want. I am happy that companies such as Brose, Valeo and Pinion are at least attempting something that many riders believe to be an elegant solution that has several advantages compared to convetionnal drivetrain tech. I am awaiting the delivery of a Stromer ST7 with a new motor, a new generation larger battery and Pinion Smart Shift. You are aware , as I am that there have been issues with some bikes. Early adopters of take a calculated risk when ordering any new tech. Sometimes it comes with pain and disappointment and sometimes the "pioneers" are rewarded. I hope to be part of the latter group. I'll be sure to post about it.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stromer ST7

Aha.

 

[mschwett]

the issue is not the belt, that’s kind of silly. there are already high power mid drives with belts, and there are TONS of very strong riders riding fully laden touring bikes in terrible conditions for tens of thousands of miles - probably millions of miles collectively.

the issue i wonder about is the combination of motor and rider load on the presumably fairly tiny internals of the gearbox. is it made for a rider to stand with their full weight on the pedals and then shift? what about that plus the motor at full power? or all the other various combinations upshifting and downshifting. one advantage of the simple old derailleur system is that it’s all external and parts are pretty big - no tiny little teeth hidden away from view.

that said, assuming these are relatively light and introduce little or no drag when the motor is off, i’d definitely go for it on a combo commuter/all-road bike.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

the issue is not the belt, that’s kind of silly. there are already high power mid drives with belts, and there are TONS of very strong riders riding fully laden touring bikes in terrible conditions for tens of thousands of miles - probably millions of miles collectively.

the issue i wonder about is the combination of motor and rider load on the presumably fairly tiny internals of the gearbox. is it made for a rider to stand with their full weight on the pedals and then shift? what about that plus the motor at full power? or all the other various combinations upshifting and downshifting. one advantage of the simple old derailleur system is that it’s all external and parts are pretty big - no tiny little teeth hidden away from view.

that said, assuming these are relatively light and introduce little or no drag when the motor is off, i’d definitely go for it on a combo commuter/all-road bike.

Yes that's my concern; the 'all the eggs in one basket' issue. My SL motor got replaced under warranty not because something broke, but the sound/noise increased and the bike shop reckoned it was getting worn so Specialised replaced it. The bike shop said they have a large number of similar motor replacements under warranty, especially with emtbs which take harder knocks etc. So my concerns with the Pinion is if one thing goes, either gear box, motor or electronics then the whole MGU will need replacing/repairing. Specialized - in my experience - have a very good warranty response. This is something Pinion and the brands that use the MGU will need to have in place. Once bikes, especially mountain bikes, start getting (trashed!) tested properly we'll see how it all goes.

As to the belt drive - absolutely, you do tend to see gates drives & Rohloff or Pinion turn up in long distance off road races like the Tour Divide or the Trans Balkans race or Transcontinental. Races where the winning margin is measured in days or hours not minutes and seconds and where the self supported rules mean reliability is the most vital thing. The extra couple of percentage points of inefficiency don't matter/ don't add up to much time lost over such a long distance.

The bikes look fantastic too. Real Mad Max vibe!

 

[Gionnirocket]

come on man... you're smarter than this.... give it a rest. Stop bickering about my choice of words . You know perfectly well what I meant. It is beneath you.
If they (the belts) work on motorcycles with combustion engines, electric motors with orders of magnitude more torque than any ebike, e-bike, speed pedelecs, spedelecs whatever. It obviously can handle whatever their motor will output.
You're also aware that they've successfully been in use, for years ,by many brands that you know well, with mid and hub drive configurations with loads of torque

I'd have to strongly disagree... and it is exactly who you are dealing with.

 

[jabberwocky]

I suspect gates belts will be fine with the torque from a motor. Their main issue I've seen is they handle foreign object damage really poorly; I had several singlespeed MTB friends switch to gates setups back in the mid-late 2000s and within a year they had all switched back to chains. Rocks/sticks kicking up nicking the belt causing it to snap seemed to be the overwhelming issue. Maybe the belts of today are a little more robust when it comes to getting smacked with stuff. You do see them pretty commonly on ultra-endurance setups these days (as Ras posted above).

I had a Raleigh XXIX with a belt setup for a bit and never had a problem, though I only put a few hundred miles on it before selling it because I got too old and grumpy to ride a singlespeed around. The guy who originally sold it to me did include a chain setup for it as well, but I never used it.

Spare belts are lighter than chains but more cumbersome, and you'll want a spare because they cannot be repaired if they do break.

 

[JRA]

I think the 48v upgrade will work well for them, sure has for me over the years! But I have never really had a 36v system of my own although I have ridden and worked on them. Personally I use 52v but doubt that you will see that used by the big manufacturers like ever.

I do notice now how instead of advertising as 250w they now advertise 600w peak at some brands that have always followed the EU regulations. Not that they haven't been all along, and even more in some cases, but it seemed to be a dirty secret that is now being allowed out of the bag I guess?

I doubt I will live long enough to have a belt driven motorized gearbox for the type of bike I require but for sure it makes sense for touring and commuting. I wouldn't go rushing into any Gen1 efforts especially in regards to noise and clunky shifts as reported. They will get it right eventually.