Bosch eBike Updates for 2020 - Generation 4 Motors | CX | Cargo | Speed

[Chris Nolte]

Chris, first of all thank you for these videos.

My question is do you know what exactly peak and nominal values mean for Bosch motors? Since you communicate with them regularly I am hoping that you have some detailed information. A technical document would be good too if they have any.

Peak can mean many different things, maximum input power that can be drawn from the battery or maximum power output for the motor and in both cases this value is usually only sustainable for very brief periods of time so not very important.

Likewise torque rating makes little sense unless we know what cadence range it is supplied.

I believe nominal powers (250 for CX and 350 for Speed) are outputs that can be sustained "indefinitely"(not really indefinitely but for long periods of time steadily) but in that case did you feel a significant difference when you are riding CX and Speed motors under load? The test may not be straightforward since CX is speed limited. One way to test is to ride both uphill (steep and long enough to keep them at their nominal output).

Bosch doesn’t publish all of these details, but one way you can think of it is based on the percentage of assistance. The peak power on the new CX is 340% so based on the nominal 250W the peak power is actually 850W. The torque is more specific where the max torque is 75Nm and available at the peak power in turbo mode. The torque isn’t based solely on cadence though, you can have full torque at a low cadence.

They do list some of these details under the specifications section of their motors on their website.

Performance Line CX: the highest performance Bosch motor for eMTBs

Best eMTB experience: A powerful drive with unique dynamics and best possible traction on trails, thanks to the Performance Line CX with 85 Nm.

www.bosch-ebike.com

 

[GregGritton]

Bosch doesn’t publish all of these details, but one way you can think of it is based on the percentage of assistance. The peak power on the new CX is 340% so based on the nominal 250W the peak power is actually 850W. The torque is more specific where the max torque is 75Nm and available at the peak power in turbo mode. The torque isn’t based solely on cadence though, you can have full torque at a low cadence.

They do list some of these details under the specifications section of their motors on their website.

Performance Line CX: the highest performance Bosch motor for eMTBs

Best eMTB experience: A powerful drive with unique dynamics and best possible traction on trails, thanks to the Performance Line CX with 85 Nm.

www.bosch-ebike.com

You can't multiply the nominal power (250W) by support (3.4) to get maximum power. The support level is a multiplier on the input (human) power of the rider and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the nominal power. The nominal power is supposed to be the motor power that can be sustained for a long period of time; i.e. the "continuous rated power", which is limited to 250W in the European union and thus all Bosch motors (and most others sold in Europe) are rated at 250W.

At one point Bosch did publish the maximum power. Last March (2019), if you went to the individual product pages, such as https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/products/performance-line/, it would list the maximum power. Unfortunately, they have removed that information. The powers that they used to list are:
- Active Line: 295W
- Active Line Plus: 418W
- Performance Line: 575W (490W with hub gear)
- Performance Speed: 575W
- Performance Line CX: 600W

These are for the old motors, not the recently introduced ones. I believe the powers are output power as they would be consistent with the powers shown at https://electricbikereview.com/foru...rison-chart-bosch-yamaha-shimano-brose.14085/. Thus input power would be higher. (If the efficiency is 80%, divide by 0.8 to get the input power.)

 

[Chris Nolte]

I might be wrong, but I believe they have previously used the assistance percentage to show peak power. It might have been during a presentation or training at some point. There is a correlation, but I could have the calculation wrong. Maybe it’s more what you said, but based on input. If they use a baseline input of 200W from the rider and output power based on that.

For example the Gen 2 CX had a 300% assist and based on the a 200W input you would get 600W. The correlation to the speed motor at 275% would be a bit lower than what you have listed, but then it doesn’t work with Active Line and Active Plus.

I will stop speculating though. I’ll see if Bosch can share any more data on this, but I imagine there is a reason why they don’t publish this info.

Sorry if I caused any confusion.

 

[JohnDoe1983]

Thanks for the video, you are helping me spending another 7000$ on a new bike. Cheers.

 

[Chris Nolte]

Thanks for the video, you are helping me spending another 7000$ on a new bike. Cheers.

Hopefully that $7000 spent on an ebike brings you more joy than it would otherwise

 

[JohnDoe1983]

I love my 2018 Open X Road 5. I bought it after reading your comments. This was a replacement for one of my Evox that gave me so much problem. Now I am 20 km from the 1000km. I will hit it tomorrow. So far, so good. Thanks alot for your advice. Much appreciated.

 

[Admin]

Hi guys! Adding to the videos Chris posted earlier, we filmed some of the presentations that were held at the new Bosch Ebike headquarters in Lakeforest California this October, 2019 and made this video. Chris and his team were also there filming, so keep an eye out because he may post additional videos as well.

 

[Chris Nolte]

Thanks Court! We have filmed the other talks and will begin posting them in the relevant forums! I was excited to see them so I hope others enjoy

 

[Over50]

New Performance Line CX. Magnesium housing, 2 pounds lighter, 48% smaller ...

 

[bob armani]

I had the privilege of meeting up with Jocelyn at the new Bosch Ebike Systems Headquarters for North America to learn more about the updates 2020 Bosch updates. Many new exciting changes including the Bosch Generation 4 motors, addition of the Cargo Line as well as the new Smartphone Hub with the COBI app.
I hope you guys enjoy the video. Let us know if you’d like us to cover any more of these topics in more detail.

Very encouraging to see the Bosch line stepping it up a notch. Love the new specs on the speed motor past the 20mph mark as well.

 

[Over50]

Very encouraging to see the Bosch line stepping it up a notch...

Bosch seems to get its share of haters on the forum. But even if one isn't a fan of their products or of the OEMs that feature their products, I think the haters should at least give Bosch a lot of credit for for dedicating resources to R&D, service and support and thereby pushing all of the major players to up their game.

 

[elect]

I never understand how people may hate a brand..

But if I have to be honest, the only thing that I dislike about Bosch ecosystem is how much are they closed. I wish I could change a lot of parameters, starting from the curves of support, torque and % per each level (it looks like even the tuning kits cant do that).

Of course this isnt Bosch specific, but since I repute it the best by a long shot given its longevity, quality and availability of parts and know-how, this is what annoys me

 

[JohnDoe1983]

Look like Apple. Cannot fix anything but it is sometime better so people that want to mess things up cannot do anything wrong and cry for warranty afterward. Il love my Performance speed so far. It does what I paid for.

 

[Johnny]

it has nothing to do with messing things up on the hardware side, he is talking about adjusting some parameters to suit the motor support to your needs.

Bosch actually gives that option up to a point with Nyon along with many useful data such as precise battery level, rider power output, torque, the amount of battery capacity used per mile etc. They must bring it to kiox too(For the older displays unfortunately the amount of information given is ridiculously low and I don't know who told them that %20 percent increments for battery readings is a good idea... ).

 

[Chris Nolte]

My suspicion is that there will be another display to replace the Nyon at some point. There is so much there and it would be a shame to just let that product die.

 

[JohnDoe1983]

Johnny you are right, I was more thinking about people who want to mess things up and do not have any knowledge and ask for warranty repair after their error.

 

[webcurl]

Johnny you are right, I was more thinking about people who want to mess things up and do not have any knowledge and ask for warranty repair after their error.

There are many conditions of many warranties. The Bosch system acquires a lot of information from your use, this could be coupled to a few conditions.
Besides, even Apple is bending to users requests these days

 

[Kandahah 2020]

I had the privilege of meeting up with Jocelyn at the new Bosch Ebike Systems Headquarters for North America to learn more about the updates 2020 Bosch updates. Many new exciting changes including the Bosch Generation 4 motors, addition of the Cargo Line as well as the new Smartphone Hub with the COBI app.
I hope you guys enjoy the video. Let us know if you’d like us to cover any more of these topics in more detail.