Bosch 6A charger

[Stefan Mikes]

webcurl: You even do not own a Satiator, have never tried it but you are the most vocal advocate for that charger. Who's blinded?

 

[Gionnirocket]

I give up:

Like I said. . . his defect is most likely biological and he can't help it.
No matter how anyone tries to explain anything to him, he will never understand that other users, even other BOSCH users may have different needs than him.
All he knows is MY SPECIALIZED, MY BOSCH...so on, so on and f*ckin' so on. . .

 

[m@Robertson]

well since my bike came with the charger its kind of a moot point. I used to like to screw around with things but now I just want to ride. I just want them to work and get tired of messing with things. I do that enough at work. fixing the mecanicals on my bike is as far as I want to go on electrical issues. well wiring in lights I guess.

Oh I think there's nothing wrong with that at all. What is wrong is some fool who needs to be snotty about it and act like s/he is somehow superior while making a point of remaining willfully ignorant.

 

[m@Robertson]

Why on earth should an owner of a quality e-bike and a charger replace the charger with anything else?! Ya, I might understand DIY people cannot live without a voltmeter but the owners of good manufactured e-bikes prefer riding and enjoying them to "fixing" (of something that is not broken).

Because he or she has a level of understanding about batteries that others may not. A charger that charges at a fixed rate of amperage to a fixed voltage cannot assist with extending battery life via smarter than smart (tm) charging. If someone doesn't understand the subject well enough, they could lead themselves to the wrong conclusion that nothing positive can be gained from such an effort.

Does the Specialized charger charge to different user-selected voltage levels? Does it utilize different current rates that you can set independently as your needs dictate? If it does then great. Now learn why utilizing those features are to the battery's benefit. If not... well bummer. you don't get those benefits.

 

[m@Robertson]

Plus the grin does not monitor the battery temp either another safety feature.

Well, you're not the ignoramus in the room here, but still I do want to reinforce a point I made above, that a lot of the angst here comes from a lack of familiarity with the topic. This in and of itself is no sin; if you have better things to do than bone up on the subject of what is good and bad for a battery, thats fine in and of itself, the name brand equipment is designed to do this thinking for you and other consumers. I couldn't tell you how any number of technical things work.

However, while the Grin charger does not monitor temperature, why is that not important to someone who knows battery tech? Because they know that heat is a direct result of the amperage in use.

So you utilize the preset profiles in your Satiator (or other adjustable charger) to provide lower current levels so that you don't either increase pack temperature nor do you significantly alter pack temperature as it cools down after a ride. I do actually monitor pack temperature via a direct, separate sensor that I can glance at. the adjustable current lets me charge at a rate I am comfortable with and that I know is safe. Also, lets say I am parking my bike in the morning at work, and I know I have X hours to go before I head home. I charge only to the rate needed to get me to my desired 80% level (or 100% level if I am doing a balance charge that day) and no more.

This level of attention to detail is not for everyone. But knowing more and doing things better as a result of understanding what is 'under the hood' certainly doesn't give someone who doesn't know f*uck-all about the subject any grounds to be dismissive of better methods or equipment.

We haven't even touched on the MTBF issue.

 

[JRA]

Could the problem be that there is more than one way to skin a cat? Or that you need to use the ignore button more? I choose both.

 

[m@Robertson]

<snip> Specialized chargers work on the Constant Current/Constant Voltage principle, and are a switchable power supply. These actually "talk" with the battery on charging, and monitor the battery temperature.

Everything works with CC+CV. Thats the 'technology' they all use at the most rudimentary level. Even the cheapest Chinese fan chargers do this. At their core they are all in fact switchable power supplies. All of them.

Most of your points made throughout this thread point to a rudimentary understanding of how chargers work and this is another example.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Everything works with CC+CV. Thats the 'technology' they all use at the most rudimentary level. Even the cheapest Chinese fan chargers do this. At their core they are all in fact switchable power supplies. All of them.

Most of your points made throughout this thread point to a rudimentary understanding of how chargers work and this is another example.

Problem is that you're pissing into the wind laying bare a$$ in the snow explaining anything to Mr. Special Specialized.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Well, you're not the ignoramus in the room here, but still I do want to reinforce a point I made above, that a lot of the angst here comes from a lack of familiarity with the topic. This in and of itself is no sin; if you have better things to do than bone up on the subject of what is good and bad for a battery, thats fine in and of itself, the name brand equipment is designed to do this thinking for you and other consumers. I couldn't tell you how any number of technical things work.

man you make dealing with batteries like a job. my brain gets used up dealing with my cnc router every day. I dont trust myself to have that attention to detail anymore. I bet your wife if you have one looks funny at you when you start talking about batteries right? Plus all the tiem I ahve to spend trying to keep my body happy there is not much left over.

 

[webcurl]

However, while the Grin charger does not monitor temperature, why is that not important to someone who knows battery tech? Because they know that heat is a direct result of the amperage in use.

So you utilize the preset profiles in your Satiator (or other adjustable charger) to provide lower current levels so that you don't either increase pack temperature nor do you significantly alter pack temperature as it cools down after a ride. I do actually monitor pack temperature via a direct, separate sensor that I can glance at. the adjustable current lets me charge at a rate I am comfortable with and that I know is safe. Also, lets say I am parking my bike in the morning at work, and I know I have X hours to go before I head home. I charge only to the rate needed to get me to my desired 80% level (or 100% level if I am doing a balance charge that day) and no more.

From the Satiator manual:
"Thermistor
The 3rd pin of the XLR charge plug can be used in conjunction with a thermistor to ground for sensing pack temperature. This is recommended with NiMH and NiCad batteries. The charger expects a thermistor with 10kOhm resistance at room temperature, and a Beta constant between 3800-4000. This thermistor spec is common in industry with nickel based packs."

And can be used throughout the function of the charger.

However i think with Lithium, most of the factors that would set a battery on fire whilst charging are to do with current as you said, in which case the BMS should take care of that as per the BMS's caring nature

We haven't even touched on the MTBF issue.

Yes, i skipped that. But with my knowledge of what and how Grin Tech. do things, i bet it's good.

 

[webcurl]

Everything works with CC+CV. Thats the 'technology' they all use at the most rudimentary level. Even the cheapest Chinese fan chargers do this.

I gave up at this stage to explain this just like you did.

At their core they are all in fact switchable power supplies. All of them.

Well said!
Hang on, i think i already mentioned that

 

[m@Robertson]

From the Satiator manual:
"Thermistor
The 3rd pin of the XLR charge plug can be used in conjunction with a thermistor to ground for sensing pack temperature. This is recommended with NiMH and NiCad batteries. The charger expects a thermistor with 10kOhm resistance at room temperature, and a Beta constant between 3800-4000. This thermistor spec is common in industry with nickel based packs."

And can be used throughout the function of the charger.

However i think with Lithium, most of the factors that would set a battery on fire whilst charging are to do with current as you said, in which case the BMS should take care of that as per the BMS's caring nature


Yes, i skipped that. But with my knowledge of what and how Grin Tech. do things, i bet it's good.

huh no kidding. I had no idea they had a temp sensor built in. It certainly is used for those Bosch adapters they sell, and any others that want temp sensing. I bet it also dovetails in somehow with the CA v3, like everything else they do does . I use the Grin XT60 + programming adapter on mine, although I also have used basic 2-wire XLR pigtails mated to an XT 60 pigtail, so there is no 3rd wire. Doesn't matter to me as I am managing temperature differently as noted above.

As to the MTBF, yes I bet it is as well. Since by its nature its a "switchable power supply (tm)", and it is essentially the same animal as a Mean Well with a GUI/screen and a programming interface bolted on, you can expect similar reliability. The roughly comparable 320w unit is rated for 157,100 hours and is rated for wet weather and damp locations. That means its expected to be functional for 18 years of round the clock use, on average, before a failure. The perfectly good 185w units (a 3a/52v charger, essentially) is rated to 192,200 hours. And recently, since I am piloting to a remote beach rest area where I'm uncomfortably low on juice on arrival, I installed an onboard unit that is 480w. That really is an 8a charger and its the one time I'll go up high (onto a 32ah pack using 21700 40T cells). That sucker can be left running continuously for only 11 years though (95,300 hours).

And its weatherproof and potted with no fan to die on you.

An Ultra Reliable Ebike Battery Charger…

How about a charger – quickly adjustable for voltage and current – that is rated for hundreds of thousands of hours of use before it typically fails?

talesontwowheels.com

 

[webcurl]

webcurl: You even do not own a Satiator, have never tried it but you are the most vocal advocate for that charger. Who's blinded?

I have but one ebike and for that i have a Discontinued Bosch Travel Charger (cost a small fortune, 12VDC input), the 4A charger it came with and separately purchased a Compact 2A charger which works better with inverters.

I often switch between using the 2A & 4A whether at home or not.

I don't currently have a need to charge at a higher rate than 4A so therefore i currently have no need for a Satiator but know a semi-decent amount about it and have watched many Grin Tech videos and perused their website a great deal.

I strongly believe that if the guy (Justin?) at Grin Tech were to pour his entire ebike knowledge into one large book i would say that the most apt title for said book would have to be "The ebike bible".

As to any tension here i try my hardest to always practise these concepts:

The Importance of Taking the Perspective of Others

Is it difficult to find solutions to problems that satisfy everyone involved? Perspective-taking may be the answer.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[webcurl]

huh no kidding. I had no idea they had a temp sensor built in. It certainly is used for those Bosch adapters they sell, and any others that want temp sensing. I bet it also dovetails in somehow with the CA v3, like everything else they do does . I use the Grin XT60 + programming adapter on mine, although I also have used basic 2-wire XLR pigtails mated to an XT 60 pigtail, so there is no 3rd wire. Doesn't matter to me as I am managing temperature differently as noted above.

It's built into the software, but the sensor is not, you have to DIY add it to the cable as specified.
There's no temperature communication between Bosch chargers and batteries, the BMS's record high & low temps, cycles, etc. And i would assume/hope the BMS cuts off charging if there is a temperature problem.
Seems Grin has discontinued (or out of stock?) the Bosch adaptor too, hope it wasn't due to any pressure from Bosch

As to the MTBF, yes I bet it is as well. Since by its nature its a "switchable power supply (tm)", and it is essentially the same animal as a Mean Well with a GUI/screen and a programming interface bolted on, you can expect similar reliability.

I have to purchase something like this soon, not for ebike but for it's intended purpose:

HLG-320H | MEAN WELL Australia

320-Watt IP65 IP67 Rugged Constant Voltage LED Driver

www.meanwellaustralia.com.au

I'll try and get the adjustable "A" model as i think i'll want to up the voltage a bit to counteract voltage losses through wire in the roof space.
As there's new "LED Lighting ballast" standards/laws here in Australia i have to purchase an Australian approved model, bonus is it comes with a 240VAC plug on the mains side so i won't have to pay an Electrician to hook it up (Insurance purposes).

An Ultra Reliable Ebike Battery Charger…

How about a charger – quickly adjustable for voltage and current – that is rated for hundreds of thousands of hours of use before it typically fails?

talesontwowheels.com

 

[webcurl]

After all that, i think what we all need is the exact same thing that is happening to Apple Inc with the proposed? EU decision to only allow USB-C ports on mobile phones & tablets.
We need a similar thing to happen to Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, Brose, Bafang + others!

 

[m@Robertson]

After all that, i think what we all need is the exact same thing that is happening to Apple Inc with the proposed? EU decision to only allow USB-C ports on mobile phones & tablets.
We need a similar thing to happen to Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, Brose, Bafang + others!

Yeah I actually like that. I am already seeing other devices standardizing on the USB-C plug. Particularly bike headlights. I would not have minded if the Rosenberger plug had caught on here.

 

[tomjasz]

Rosenberger plug had caught on here.

I’m retired those are pension suckers. <wink>

 

[webcurl]

I’m retired those are pension suckers. <wink>

I realise that if all ebike companies used them, they would be cheaper and you still probably wouldn't use them?

 

[tomjasz]

I realise that if all ebike companies used them, they would be cheaper and you still probably wouldn't use them?

you’re right probably not. I bought a Grin RTR kit and the connectors and wire groups are really slick. Remember, if you read my posts, I’ve regressed to 36v 20-25A and 36V 15A setups. Despite the cool factor of speedier connectors all of my kits use Andersons. Bunches of XT pigtails in my kit, unused and no future use. I need to do a rummage sale.

 

[Ebiker01]

It's built into the software, but the sensor is not, you have to DIY add it to the cable as specified.

My Satiator does display 🌡 on lithium packs , but I did the custom work on the cable , had to cut the cable from the original cheap and inferior 4A charger and solder those 3 20AWG cables to the Neutrik gold XLR connector , so yea now i realize how the thermistor was created...thx !

It did almost 3 years already , 300+cycles with no issues, GRIN TECH should build an ebike, the knowledge and parts r there.

The only usable or maybe comparable Mean Well charger would be the HLG-480H-54 but it has huge drawbacks:

- much heavier (6lb vs 3bs for Grin Satiator) , maybe the whole weight is 7lbs if u don't adjust that long cord;
- unlike the 48V Satiator , it can not do 36v , neither 52v , range is 45.9V-56.7V
- min. amperage is 4.4AH

Then there is the HLG-600 but it's even heavier , no good.


We should have our own " Satiator" fan cub page or invite only thread .