BMC and Stromer...
- Thread starter J.R.
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Cory151
Active Member
Ill take your $1500 analogy and take it a step further and say I have a 32cc gas Golden Eagle kit in a beach cruiser with about $500 total investment that does everything (while not pedaling at all) that both bikes you reference do and its completely legal.
"The world does not need a $7000 eBike when there are $1500 ebikes doing the same"
Funny that type of logic hasn't worked in the car industry, in the slightest. A Camry or Civic will get you everywhere a Lambo, Tesla or Porsche will (probably more reliably), yet people pay 10x the cost of such basic vehicles, because nobody wants old tech or basic status. You are discounting the largest drivers of human nature which completely fund industries like fashion, entertainment, technology and personal transportation.
These are the largest consumer industries in the world, driven by billions of people who always want and demand NEW, BETTER, DIFFERENT and STATUS. I'd venture to assume you are not reading this text on a 2005 era 'flip phone,' and why not? It does all the same "basic functions" as todays smartphones (calling, texting, GPS and web capabilities). Right? In such a tech intensive community I am always surprised when I come across people with such Luddite mentalities.
GW Shark
Member
The ST2 is so far advanced in its feel that the only bike I have ridden that I would say is close component for component is the Specialized turbo S, but the electronics tops that on the Stromer , a $1k list upgrade from Specialized S to Stromer ST2. @Cory151 is correct in his statement above and to go one other direction, Specialized could easily buy Stromer for their technology and that would be a perfect marriage.
There will always be a better product and thank God for that! Our country was built on the philosophy of building the better mouse trap and investing capital in dreams. By the time a company settles for a me too mentality they are truly on their way out or lost in the crowd. If you can afford the luxury go for it and you will have at least taken the chance and will know.
As a side note, no one pays MSRP for their bikes do they, so how is this (ST2) a $7 K bike?
There will always be a better product and thank God for that! Our country was built on the philosophy of building the better mouse trap and investing capital in dreams. By the time a company settles for a me too mentality they are truly on their way out or lost in the crowd. If you can afford the luxury go for it and you will have at least taken the chance and will know.
As a side note, no one pays MSRP for their bikes do they, so how is this (ST2) a $7 K bike?
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J.R.
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You've made a flawed argument against a statement I don't think you've read.
That statement reads: "need" and you proceeded to make the argument about wants! And still it's flawed, it would be true if the ebike market was mature in a good economy, but it isn't.
For 20-30 years prior to mass production of automobiles there were plenty of fanciful automobiles available and still motorcycles outsold them all. Nice cars with roofs and windshields from makers like Cadillac and Mercedes and solely on the basis of cost people chose motorcycles. It wasn't because of the nice dirt cart-paths and foul winter weather. When prices came down due to the assembly line and mass production that cars started to out pace motorcycles in sales.
Prior to the depression and WWII there were more than 100 motorcycle brands in the US and even with a strong post war economy, 2 remained. Before an argument can be advanced about quality, no one built better machines than the US at that time.
These statements I've made are undisputed historical facts. I'm not saying there isn't a market for a $7k ebike, but the market will be better for such machines once matured and that will take a lot of sub-$2k ebikes. We need more transportation bikes and ebikes in the hands of the average commuter. So the statement that the world doesn't need is very much true, but your statement that some of the world wants it, is also true, in very limited numbers though. One argument does not negate the other.
The biggest benefit the ebike market could get from that $7k bike is if Stromer offered a mass produced, lightweight, less expensive model based on their existing technology. Unfortunately I think Stromer and their customer base would rather their brand remain the BMW of ebikes and not the VW of ebikes. Enter Currie Tech and ProdecoTech.
GW Shark
Member
Stromer has an offering in the Elite and Platinum ST1 for half the price or less than an ST2 and I am talking about what you can buy. Specialized same way on pricing structure. I think you are dead on in regards to positioning and they intentionally leave the other market for the other buyers buying the other products. I feel blessed that we have such quality offerings to chose from and this bike is definitely a want and not a need hence the budget can or will shift for luxury purchases. I do not know anyone that has a passion for a given hobby that can not or will not justify their spend for their desire(want). We all do it to varying degrees. It's all about priorities !
J.R.
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- Piedmont Highlands
I tend to agree with you, I own one of the most expensive production motorcycle made (FLHTCU). I don't think Stromer's lesser models are less enough in terms of weight or price. Stromer likes where they are and that's fine, they would be in a better position in a mature market. That's why they are in a fine balancing act and it is very much a question whether they will survive. I very much hope they do!
grench
Well-Known Member
bluecat
Well-Known Member
There are reasons, why myStromer AG don't enter the mass market:
myStromer AG has only two product lines: ST1 and ST2. There is no cross-finance form other parts of the company. This makes the situation difficult - but with this, they focus on the customer.
- The legacy from Thömus Veloshop
- The size of the company
- The earning per sold bike.
- The target group
- The knowhow of the company
myStromer AG has only two product lines: ST1 and ST2. There is no cross-finance form other parts of the company. This makes the situation difficult - but with this, they focus on the customer.
stevenast
Well-Known Member
Very well stated! For those having a large disposable income, why not!
grench
Well-Known Member
For today's crowd 'disposable income' = a credit card with some available balance- my kids continue to teach me this New concept!
15-20lbs lighter Stromer...aren't you referring to the Haibike?
Guess you haven't looked at Haibike weights.
Except no 1500 does the same thing the 7000 does.
in the same way a 18,000 Hyndai does the same thing as a 70,000 Mercedes.
Guess Merecedes is on the way out! ???
I am going to pick up my ST2 this morning. After a lot of research and several test rides, it was clear that this is the ebike I want. Although $7,000 had me coughing for a bit, I got over it. $7,000 is an expensive mountain bike or road bike, but nowhere near the top for either of those groups (I am an avid MTBer). The idea that the market is not mature seems to point to, or smell of, ethnocentrism. The market is massive in China and much of Europe. Last summer, in Germany, the day-to-day bike shops all had more ebikes than non ebikes. I did not see any hint of bike shops that specialized in just ebikes, given ebikes are more a part of the norm. The market is immature here in the US, so Stromer might be wise to focus their early efforts on specific cities with more mature markets.
Also, please link Stromer to Porsche and not BMW, given some personality quirks within BMW owners....
Also, please link Stromer to Porsche and not BMW, given some personality quirks within BMW owners....
bluecat
Well-Known Member
I'm curious. What other brands did you test? What were the "killer-criteria" for the ST2?
I am going to pick up my ST2 this morning. After a lot of research and several test rides, it was clear that this is the ebike I want. Although $7,000 had me coughing for a bit, I got over it. $7,000 is an expensive mountain bike or road bike, but nowhere near the top for either of those groups (I am an avid MTBer). The idea that the market is not mature seems to point to, or smell of, ethnocentrism. The market is massive in China and much of Europe. Last summer, in Germany, the day-to-day bike shops all had more ebikes than non ebikes. I did not see any hint of bike shops that specialized in just ebikes, given ebikes are more a part of the norm. The market is immature here in the US, so Stromer might be wise to focus their early efforts on specific cities with more mature markets.
Also, please link Stromer to Porsche and not BMW, given some personality quirks within BMW owners....
Hello,
First, I want/need a bike with enough range to trust that it will be able to go 40 miles on a charge. The bike will only be asked to make that commute occasionally, hence the want/need, and I could have just mark that off. This criteria cut the list down a bit. Then, the daily commute has two extreme hills that will be huge energy drains, so I wanted a bike that has a strong range even if the other commute was to be eliminated. This cut off some, but not many. Next, I wanted a bike that is very fun to ride. The ST1 and ST2 are both great rides in this category. Next, I wanted the support of a shop that has a long history selling ebikes and has great reviews. The shop that appeared the strongest in this area sells several brands: Haibike, A2B, Stromer, and others. A2B is interesting, but did not catch my attention beyond that level. I was very interested in Haibike, but the test ride turned me off. It just did not fit me well. On some level looks came into the equation, and I love the looks of the ST1 and ST2. After test riding both, the ST2 seemed to beat the ST1 in virtually every way, for me. So, the ST2.
Also, please link Stromer to Porsche and not BMW, given some personality quirks within BMW owners....
Hello,
First, I want/need a bike with enough range to trust that it will be able to go 40 miles on a charge. The bike will only be asked to make that commute occasionally, hence the want/need, and I could have just mark that off. This criteria cut the list down a bit. Then, the daily commute has two extreme hills that will be huge energy drains, so I wanted a bike that has a strong range even if the other commute was to be eliminated. This cut off some, but not many. Next, I wanted a bike that is very fun to ride. The ST1 and ST2 are both great rides in this category. Next, I wanted the support of a shop that has a long history selling ebikes and has great reviews. The shop that appeared the strongest in this area sells several brands: Haibike, A2B, Stromer, and others. A2B is interesting, but did not catch my attention beyond that level. I was very interested in Haibike, but the test ride turned me off. It just did not fit me well. On some level looks came into the equation, and I love the looks of the ST1 and ST2. After test riding both, the ST2 seemed to beat the ST1 in virtually every way, for me. So, the ST2.
Cameron Newland
Well-Known Member
grench
Well-Known Member
@stevenastYou're correct, Mercedes will always be there for those who want to spend way more money than the product is worth.
Of course, those who can afford a $70,000 Mercedes are not worried about the price!
You may not understand the difference...trust me when my wife steps into and out of our Mercedes she understands the difference. Sometimes you have to get off the wallet and enjoy some of the finer things in life.
stevenast
Well-Known Member
Cory151
Active Member
You make an interesting argument. So as not to confuse you in regards to specificity,here are my points:
1) E-bikes are not needs.
2) Discounting the influence of premium corporate branding is a fools errand.
Starting from the top. If you'd like to make an argument simply based on NEEDS, then every e-bikes ever made should be off the table. Nobody NEEDS an e-bike.
An e-bike isn't a need or a necessity to live right? Here is what definition of NEED via Wikipedia.
"A need is a thing that is necessary for an organism to live a healthy life. Needs are distinguished from wants in that, in the case of a need, a deficiency causes a clear adverse outcome: a dysfunction or death."
Im gonna go ahead and assume , as a reasonable person, you agree with the above definition of needs and can agree nothing in any of this discussion is a 'need.' Moving on.
Your "historical facts" do nothing to address the spending habits of Modern consumers. I'm not saying your opinion is out of touch with modern consumerism, but I believe you do not comprehend how vastly important, premium branding really is. Case in point, as of 2014 Apple was the single most profitable corporation in the US (2nd in the entire world only to Bank of China), and guess what? They don't sell a single NEED. They sell wants. Electronic wants. Gadgets, if you will. Apple not only sells wants, but "premium" wants, compared to cheaper alternatives available by many companies in the same markets.
But what if I'm wrong? Lets suppose both of my points are untrue, what would the world look like? Just for fun….
1) People without e-bikes are at risk of death or disfunction.
2) Consumers do not pay a premium for, or are loyal to premium branding. Apple would be
more profitable selling cheaper gadgets that more people can afford.
Is this the world as you know it, J.R?
