BMC and Stromer...
- Thread starter J.R.
- Start date
Specialized sells vast numbers of quality bicycles every year, as well as a wide range of other bike parts and supplies. They are a top leader in the bicycle industry.
Along with hundreds of other items, Bosch sells power steering motors for tractors!
The "other items" include: appliances, electronics, automobile parts ...yes, they're a household name as well.
Yep, I would say Bosch is.
Specialized is not.
Again, try to understand what "household name" MEANS
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
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- Canada
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- Halifax
I have a Bosch coffee grinder.
Which household?
Bosch is NOT a household name in the United States
I would guess it's close. They sell an awful lot of different products and I see their power tools every weekend in the Lowes and Home Depot ads.
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
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- Canada
- City
- Halifax
Bosch's wireless ebike.
George S.
Well-Known Member
The Stromer has to be an S-Pedelec. There's a lot of stuff on the Haibike pages, the German ones, about how these are structured, how the regulations are structured. Haibike admits their S-Peds are not ebikes and they are not bikes. Basically, that is a speed equation, maybe a judgment about where the motor is the dominant source of power.
https://www.haibike.com/de/de
Since there are no S Ped regs in the US, who knows what the Stromer is, or will be. You can go by California, and their proposals, but it won't get you all that far. If it is not a bike or an ebike, it's a motorcycle or, gee, a Moped?
The whole ebike thing in the US seems to unraveling. The cheap stuff reflects the huge volumes in China. Whatever else you might say, the Chinese stuff works. The cost benefits are gargantuan. The expensive stuff reflects the connoisseur or luxury market, probably almost entirely driven from Europe. Look West, you get one result. Look East, you get another. The Chinese have created a market for 100 million, the Stromer a market for ______.
With the Asian stuff you need rigorous quality control and you don't want to scrimp and over-reach on 'value'. But that is actually fairly easy, if you know ebikes and can say what really works. Don't do anything stupid. Get to a reasonable level of quality on components.
You have to ask what the ultimate purpose is behind the most opulent bikes, anything over $5k. Once you throw speed into the list of features, you leave the bike and ebike definitions in the rear view mirror.
Stromer and Haibike, others, are trying to create a new category in the US. Haibike in Germany will say an SPed Hai is not a bike or ebike. I wonder if Accel will follow that lead when the bikes reach the US?
Haibike, translated by Google:
Fast eBikes (S-pedelec)
, at first glance simple insight on the most important understanding on a S-pedelec is: A fast eBike is not a bicycle (or eBike) more. Although deceptively similar at first glance, the two are in the legal treatment that is fundamentally different. So the eBike applies in German law as a normal bike and the fast Pedelec as Leichtkraftrad, similar to a moped or scooter.
https://www.haibike.com/de/de
Since there are no S Ped regs in the US, who knows what the Stromer is, or will be. You can go by California, and their proposals, but it won't get you all that far. If it is not a bike or an ebike, it's a motorcycle or, gee, a Moped?
The whole ebike thing in the US seems to unraveling. The cheap stuff reflects the huge volumes in China. Whatever else you might say, the Chinese stuff works. The cost benefits are gargantuan. The expensive stuff reflects the connoisseur or luxury market, probably almost entirely driven from Europe. Look West, you get one result. Look East, you get another. The Chinese have created a market for 100 million, the Stromer a market for ______.
With the Asian stuff you need rigorous quality control and you don't want to scrimp and over-reach on 'value'. But that is actually fairly easy, if you know ebikes and can say what really works. Don't do anything stupid. Get to a reasonable level of quality on components.
You have to ask what the ultimate purpose is behind the most opulent bikes, anything over $5k. Once you throw speed into the list of features, you leave the bike and ebike definitions in the rear view mirror.
Stromer and Haibike, others, are trying to create a new category in the US. Haibike in Germany will say an SPed Hai is not a bike or ebike. I wonder if Accel will follow that lead when the bikes reach the US?
Haibike, translated by Google:
Fast eBikes (S-pedelec)
, at first glance simple insight on the most important understanding on a S-pedelec is: A fast eBike is not a bicycle (or eBike) more. Although deceptively similar at first glance, the two are in the legal treatment that is fundamentally different. So the eBike applies in German law as a normal bike and the fast Pedelec as Leichtkraftrad, similar to a moped or scooter.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Once you market an over 20mph e bike here in the US it goes from CPSC guidelines to DOT and the easiest way to look at it is to classify it as a MoPed. But that means full lighting kit, head, tail, brake and turn, rear view mirror and also DOT approved rims and tires. Tags, license, insurance, ANSI helmet the works. Oh, and automatic shifting. All these items will add to the cost of the bike and you can't use it like a bike. In the bike lane, on bike paths etc..
What the more mature EU ebike market and their struggles with the Speed Pedelec definition is doing is driving us past what has gotten them to the point of Speed Pedelecs. Under 20mph bicycles that are treated as bicycles that have had a high sales ratio over there for the past 5 years or so.
That said would I like a bike that I can bomb along at 28mph and be able to keep a good cadence with resistance enough in the gearing to get a good workout? Yes. But would I spend $5000 plus for the ability to do that? No. I would just keep riding my regular ebike in the manner that suits me for a lot less money that I can still use as a bicycle and buy a motorcycle or a moped. Or fire up my under $1000 49cc 4 stroke gas bike that is allowed to go 30mph and is still defined as a motorized bicycle and allows me to do all my first sentence describes with unlimited mileage capability. I like my ebike for around town better though.
And Accel is Haibike George. You can already see that they are trying to dictate the regs here to fit their business model through their BPSC connection.
What the more mature EU ebike market and their struggles with the Speed Pedelec definition is doing is driving us past what has gotten them to the point of Speed Pedelecs. Under 20mph bicycles that are treated as bicycles that have had a high sales ratio over there for the past 5 years or so.
That said would I like a bike that I can bomb along at 28mph and be able to keep a good cadence with resistance enough in the gearing to get a good workout? Yes. But would I spend $5000 plus for the ability to do that? No. I would just keep riding my regular ebike in the manner that suits me for a lot less money that I can still use as a bicycle and buy a motorcycle or a moped. Or fire up my under $1000 49cc 4 stroke gas bike that is allowed to go 30mph and is still defined as a motorized bicycle and allows me to do all my first sentence describes with unlimited mileage capability. I like my ebike for around town better though.
And Accel is Haibike George. You can already see that they are trying to dictate the regs here to fit their business model through their BPSC connection.
Well said, but I "think" you're talking about Chinese e bike KITS versus High end BIKES, cuz while the 8fun "may" be great value (hell of a lot of failures and making due with less than optimal setup) the "whole bike" chinese setups do not tend to fare well.
The Haibike and Stromers of the world are about the entire bike, not just the drive system. The Stromer is so beefy and overbuilt in the structure that I think it WILL be around in 5-10 years. I doubt many of the $2,000 bikes are. Unless they've been hanging.
And the difference in ride AND visible quality is striking.
How many of those cheapies are user configurable to match the assist to your strength and ride geography? You won't miss it if you don't have it, but if you do, WOW, what a significant difference!
I'm not advocating over spending, but often times you Do get what you pay for!
I started out on the bargain end, bought a Giant fsp to use with a Bafang but it won't fit for now. Fit a Falco (high end) setup on my Catrike Expedition and then bought the stromer on a whim (bargain price) after test riding 7 different $1800-2500 bikes. Was going to buy a Izip Zuma or Path+ at one point. Nice looking bikes, but the drive system is much less sophisticated. move the pedals, the bike scoots forward, very unrelated to how much effort I was putting out> And its not tuneable so what you get is what you have. The frame and brakes are much less beefy, really just a regular bike loaded with 3x the power and double the weight. Not a great recipe for longevity and the message boards provide plenty of evidence of that.
There certainly is a large niche for low end stuff, but if they mostly all puke in 2 years what have you saved versus spending twice as much and having it for 10 years?
It's like buying good furniture, Yes you can buy stuff that will look JUST as good for half the price. (and I have! LOL) But it won't last half as long. JMO
George S.
Well-Known Member
Most basic ebikes end up being Chinese parts. Frames are made in China, or Taiwan. The Shimano factories are in Asia, generally not Japan. Accel assembles ebikes in Europe, but not in the US. It's tough to build motors when the Chinese generate huge volumes, so until you get to the high priced mid-drives, it's an Asian product or a super specialty product.
I have a Prodeco X3 (and a bike a converted, so two ebikes). The X3 has a very beefy frame and a very basic 500 watt DD rear hub. The components are great, actually, for the $1800 price, especially the brakes. The battery is a LiFePo chemistry, but it's held up very well. I actually think Prodeco knows how to make a cheap bike. They run to throttles, so almost primitive.
To make an ebike you need a decent frame, decent components, and the ebike specific parts. The motors are just plain cheap, any way you slice it, unless you go mid-drive. The batteries are going down in price, so much less of an issue. Thanks, Mr. Musk.
The bike I built has a Mac motor, which is a premium hub. I ran it up some hills this morning, the most grade I can find around here, and after 5 minutes reached down to feel the motor housing. Quite cool, which is good. I'm using a $400 frame, and it's not going much over 20 mph while I ride it. The Bikes Direct bike is certainly built for speeds around what I ride. I like the minimalist approach. I thought the idea was to make ebikes 'like', similar to, bikes. But that has changed. I have a $60 controller, and I'm experimenting with batteries. I may end up back with LiFePo, because they are safe and cheap, if heavy. Around (above) 20 mph is where the cyclist is supplying a small proportion of the power in most cases. So there is a dividing line for the ebike category.
People look at the Sondors bike and see problems. I see a cheap motor and a somewhat chancy battery, other electronics, but this is not a complicated system.
I think they will push the tech, they always do. Road bikes have moved far from what I knew. I don't feel it's often that important. The gripe is that you end up with expensive bikes that can be old tech, while primitive tech (the Prodeco) still more or less works without revision.
Good bikes will probably be available for $2000 and under. They probably will have mid-drives or quality hubs, higher quality hubs, looking out a few years. There is a two speed hub. Most of the bikes that are now in the $2-$3k range seem a little slapped together. We'll see how the regulatory thing plays out, how difficult it will be to sell bikes that go faster than the original vision for ebikes, at 20 mph.
I have a Prodeco X3 (and a bike a converted, so two ebikes). The X3 has a very beefy frame and a very basic 500 watt DD rear hub. The components are great, actually, for the $1800 price, especially the brakes. The battery is a LiFePo chemistry, but it's held up very well. I actually think Prodeco knows how to make a cheap bike. They run to throttles, so almost primitive.
To make an ebike you need a decent frame, decent components, and the ebike specific parts. The motors are just plain cheap, any way you slice it, unless you go mid-drive. The batteries are going down in price, so much less of an issue. Thanks, Mr. Musk.
The bike I built has a Mac motor, which is a premium hub. I ran it up some hills this morning, the most grade I can find around here, and after 5 minutes reached down to feel the motor housing. Quite cool, which is good. I'm using a $400 frame, and it's not going much over 20 mph while I ride it. The Bikes Direct bike is certainly built for speeds around what I ride. I like the minimalist approach. I thought the idea was to make ebikes 'like', similar to, bikes. But that has changed. I have a $60 controller, and I'm experimenting with batteries. I may end up back with LiFePo, because they are safe and cheap, if heavy. Around (above) 20 mph is where the cyclist is supplying a small proportion of the power in most cases. So there is a dividing line for the ebike category.
People look at the Sondors bike and see problems. I see a cheap motor and a somewhat chancy battery, other electronics, but this is not a complicated system.
I think they will push the tech, they always do. Road bikes have moved far from what I knew. I don't feel it's often that important. The gripe is that you end up with expensive bikes that can be old tech, while primitive tech (the Prodeco) still more or less works without revision.
Good bikes will probably be available for $2000 and under. They probably will have mid-drives or quality hubs, higher quality hubs, looking out a few years. There is a two speed hub. Most of the bikes that are now in the $2-$3k range seem a little slapped together. We'll see how the regulatory thing plays out, how difficult it will be to sell bikes that go faster than the original vision for ebikes, at 20 mph.
bluecat
Well-Known Member
Friedrichshafen is 200km from my home. If it fits, I'll visit Eurobike for one day. It would be a pleasure for me, meeting up. Especially, as you you were the sole guy who could give a reliable answer to my tough question.
myStromer AG now needs the next step: Become bigger. For this, they are looking out for new capital. This could be venture capital, or an investor - even if he takes the majority.
I also believe, new capital should come from the technology sector rather than from conglomerates. I'm convinced, once the infrastructure and personnel for service and maintenance is build, myStromer Ag will start powerful marketing activities.
J.R.
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Piedmont Highlands
You do create brand loyalty when a brand stays with a quality design and build, but Stromer needs new product development too. R&D for the future market will attract new investors and capital. With technology or transport the future market is 6 months from now. I hope there are new, lighter models in the offing, I'd like to see a more cyclist friendly version of a Stromer. A 15 to 20 pound lighter model with the same quality standards, would attract a lot of new customers.
Cameron Newland
Well-Known Member
bluecat
Well-Known Member
I fully agree with that.
We should emphasize, that myStromer AG has broader and deeper knowledge in building electric bicycles in large series than the most competitors.
- Design and geometry of frame and carbon fork: Inhouse
- Patented battery housing and mechanism: Inhouse
- Design and construction of ST2 motor: Inhouse
- Design and development of ST2 firmware and mobile phone app: Inhouse
- Design and requirements for the battery: Inhouse
From my point of view, this should attract new capital...
