Big name bikes and Bafang

Thank you for all the info buddy. I have 2 x 48v 15Ah (total 30 Ah) batteries that use the LG 21700 cells. I am more than happy with them. I was just curious and would rather ask someone with real world experience of them than read the tons of hearsay pages available.
Thanks again.
My experience with 52v pack has been a dream! but i have a battery pack made big enough to properly accommodate the cells, the Win for me is more power and more consistent performance, i find i ride 1 to2 PAS levels lower when i ride with the 52v pack and the drop off in the bike performance when the battery is low is far less noticeable to me! i have never had voltage Sag with the 52v pack! the Down side for me is the pack is huge and kinda goofy looking as it bulges out to one side to accommodate the extra cells.
 
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give it 24 months lol, then dig this thread back up! i think the future for Bafang in the US could be very interesting in the next 2 years.
i believe JEEP going with the Quite Kat Ultra is just the beginning.
 
I think Ravi presented an argument against a relationship between the big brands and Bafang in this post in another thread: https://electricbikereview.com/foru...hanical-and-e-14-discussion.33122/post-267158

As Asher said ecosystem is everything. And batteries are a key part of that. Bafang not making or selling batteries is a hurdle.
Interesting post from Ravi. I hadn't considered or known about Bafang's lack of support and QA.

Reminds me of something a Specialized rep once said to the press, that when Spec does a recall, they don't just refund you even if that would be cheaper, but they get you something else to keep you riding. Not sure if that is marketing or reality, but dovetails with what Ravi described.
 
Did JEEP actually get involved in the development of ebike?
I know Ford used to let Pedego use their name for their ebikes.

I don't think JEEP branded ebikes are exclusive to Bafang powered ebikes.

ハードテイルe-MTB「JE-279E」

09_o.jpg

ドライブユニットはシマノSTEPS「E8080シリーズ」

11.6Ahの大容量バッテリー

コンポーネントにはシマノ製「ALTUS」M2000シリーズ
コンポーネントにはシマノ製「ALTUS」M2000シリーズ
油圧式ディスクブレーキ
フレームに刻まれるロゴ
サイクルコンピューター
Where are those pics from?
 
I wonder if Bafang offered a potted system, where a throttle couldn't be attached, if the Euro brands would adopt it? If Bafang offered a system that couldn't be speed hacked, had torque sensor PAS, no throttle possible and offered it at half the price of Bosch I think the brands 'designed in Europe' would beat a path to their door.
 
So what do you think of 58v battery packs.
52V batteries charge to 58.8V. 48V to 54.7V Biktrix thinks it's a 4% increase. MEH. I can ride at 34MPH instead of 32MPH, for the first miles ridden. Then it drops off.
I'm not sure the voltage itself was sole problem here.
No mention of voltage being a problem, other than Bafang preferring limiting to a 54.6V max. They even changed firmware to throw a 07 overvolt error with a 52V(58.8V) battery. Why do we imagine the 30A was dropped to 28A? Sure Lunatics and others are running at much higher amps and voltages, but I can confirm the high number of fried components. BUT DIY users are still happy as the repairs are DIY accessible.

Don't assume all the vendors you listed have high standards of construction. I opened cases and packs from several vendors. Surprisingly several were IDENTICAL to UPP builds and used low-quality nickel-coated steel connections (prone to rust) and $5 BMS.
 
The main reason I ended up going the Bafang route was by chance. Back in 2017 my buddy shows up at my house on a costco bike he bought for $325 and then threw a BBSHD motor and shark pack on it and he let me take it for a ride. BIG mistake for me. So now I had to make one too. We rode those bikes for awhile and had a blast while exploring the e-bike world via internet. Hardly any bike shops here in SD had any experience with Bafang so it was up to us to figure stuff out. We used to get all our stuff from L--- up in LA but that ended up being a pain in the ---. Of course by now we were starting to break frames, cassettes, and chains.

WE would also run out of juice and have to pedal our A---- back home from gosh knows where so we needed a bigger battery. So we started trying to build a better mousetrap.

Tried a couple different Haibikes but they would soon run out of power and trying to retrofit a different battery looked like a pain.
Went from an Al frame to a steel one and switched to a SA IGH 3 spd in the rear and those lasted pretty good.

Bought a junk spot welder from Amazon ( what could go wrong with that? ) for $150 and started to make my own larger battery's. You guessed it the welds started to pop off on some of the top layers of nickel because the welder didn't have enough power to penetrate. Next up was the Vruzend kit build but those wouldn't take the abuse so we ditched those too. Read some good stuff on the EP about a guy in the UK ( not Damien ) that designed a spot welder that could use a Lipo battery for a power supply and got good consistent welds for a fair price. Jumped in with both feet and never looked back. I have never had a battery fail so far ( knock on wood ). Previously I had all sorts of trouble with the shark battery's that quit working. Nickel tabs breaking off and tons of sensing wires ( BMS ) separated as well. Not an issue using this welder. Only bad thing about this welder is you get one chance at the build meaning you can't separate the batteries from the pack to redesign you will ruin the batteries if you try to separate them.

As far as a 52v battery being worse than a 48v one is rediculous. The Bafang motors I have seen will operate up to 60v thats why 58.8v is a good fit. The builder and design are what makes a safe and reliable battery.

Some guys like to buy things and just use them and if there's a problem take it back to the dealer and have it repaired. Thats probably a smart thing.
But Im not that guy.
I tend to tinker with stuff and try to make it better for ME.
If something breaks I fix it. My house, boat cars etc. Whether thats replacing a main rotor shaft in a BBSHD or swapping out controllers with the Bafang I can do that and I don't have to wait for a e-mail back or phone call that usually doesn't come back in a timely manner. Do I think that the Euro motors are more sophisticated than the Ultra? probably, But honestly I won't know the difference. Being able to build up something on my own is the main appeal for me on Bafang. If I could of bought parts for a Shimano, Bosch, or Brose I might of taken a left turn instead of a right.

There are already to many things in this world that want to protect everybody from everything. My feeling is take your chances and accept responsibility if it goes south.

As far as will the main bike manufacturers switch to Bafang I think when the track record gets a little longer some might but the bigger companies have long relationships with certain vendors and they won't change even if they want to.

Sorry for ranting.
 
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Did JEEP actually get involved in the development of ebike?
I know Ford used to let Pedego use their name for their ebikes.

I don't think JEEP branded ebikes are exclusive to Bafang powered ebikes.

ハードテイルe-MTB「JE-279E」

09_o.jpg

ドライブユニットはシマノSTEPS「E8080シリーズ」

11.6Ahの大容量バッテリー

コンポーネントにはシマノ製「ALTUS」M2000シリーズ
コンポーネントにはシマノ製「ALTUS」M2000シリーズ
油圧式ディスクブレーキ
フレームに刻まれるロゴ
サイクルコンピューター
i only saw this bike in the very beginning but i havnt seen anything about it in sometime, they only advertise the Quiet Kat Ultra, im not sure they did any developing with Quite Kat, it just looks like your average FS Ultra with a huge price mark up that we have come to expect from anything Quite Kat.
 
those top bikes are European thats why they are not advertised here ,no 1000watt motors over there but the hub bikes are new to me!
to be honest they dont look amazing, are they even Bafang Motors? these look like sub Bafang Walmart Bikes! Jeep is all over the place and clearly have no issue putting their name on MIC products ...
 
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If you go on YouTube and type in 72V BBSHD or 72V Ultra, you will see tons of them.
People usually use ASI BAC controller.
And if you find truthful users or ever take one of those motors in for repairs you might find some reports are disingenuous reports. Users seldom own their screw ups. This shop has seen trashed Ludicrous and Phaserunner motors regularly and arguably has the largest selection of BBSxx series parts in the USA. We see which parts are a fix for typical issues. Nylon gears can be easily turned to peanut butter and are normally never an issue unless overvolted. I believe a simpler Baserunner a better choice. But 72V is another galaxy, suited to the star struck goofs following the pack and building Frankinbikes.

52V batteries Matt wrote about are trash. Period. If posters take the time to review the basics you’ll see it’s all about s*it builds in a case that’s to small for 14s. BTW It’s Bafang that messes with voltage in their firmware. BBSHD rotors are a big seller to BBSHD overvolters. Redesigned early this year with a larger gear shaft. First version will snap.
 

This study reports a life span in the range of 10 to 15 years, although I presume some efficiencies have been made since it was published.

So far, according to experimentation for electric (EV) and hybrid (HV) vehicles applications, using scale 1 cells built with nickel based positive material the results show:

• more than 1 200 deep cycle (80% d.o.d. EV cycle) with only few percent of energy and power losses,
• more than 500 000 shallow cycles (3% d.o.d. HV cycle) with negligible power losses,
• 2 years of storage testing at full charge and various temperature (20 °C/40 °C/60 °C) leading to a life expectation of 10 years for EV applications and 15 years for HV applications
.

(to be clear, this study examined Li-Ion, not Ni-MH batteries)

This seems inline with the 10 year warranty a Powerwall comes with. (although that's a bit of a loaded subject in itself)
You want hear something creepy? ( with very little relation to the thread) Sandy Munroe( I believe) said.
When He and His group were doing power storage option for the Military," when cycled to 70% of capacity, the lead-acid batteries would last through millions of cycles".
Unbelievable, I do know these days if you run a "FLA" down completely 2-3 times, you are better off to get a new one.
The "Mack" truck I used to drive( it pays to keep one driver in the same truck") had the same"starting" batteries on board after 7 yrs( unheard of in the scene of replacement batteries) they were proprietory "Bulldog brand" and I do not know how much longer they lasted. They saw hard usage too, a big Diesel is hard to turn over.
The point is at the end of the day manufacturers have to make a profit and if you make things too good you will actually put yourself out of business. I really liked the NiMH batteries I used to get for replacements or usage in solar-charged things, I know Li-Ion batteries have a better power to weight ratio, the thing is when the Li batteries die they are gone IME. So treat them well, new tech and super caps are going to make things very interesting in the next few years in the transportation industry.
 
If you go on YouTube and type in 72V BBSHD or 72V Ultra, you will see tons of them.
People usually use ASI BAC controller.
YouTube is filled with tons of something for sure.... but using YouTube as a definitive source of information is scary at best.
Use things as designed. If you go above their ratings realize that you do so at your own risk and in my experience, rarely worth it.
Manufacturers take into account reliability when deciding on ratings. If you push beyond those ratings for ultimate performance, realize that reliability will suffer. Great for short term fun but not for everyday use as youtube videos appear to imply.
 
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For whatever reason, people here, in this thread and the forums generally, gloss over two big reasons:
1. The name brand motors are designed for the European market, where speeds are capped at 15 mph. (Something like 1-5% of the market is class 3 s pedelecs, which are stifled by regulations in most places besides BE/CH.) Seems like Bafang excels with motors for higher speeds.

Personally, I know nothing about building and designing motors, but it's quite plausible that it's actually harder to make a lower speed motor work well (not long term reliability, just immediate operation), because the motor has to use a lot of finesse in giving small doses of power relative to what the human rider is putting out. If the motor is putting out 5x what you are, well, there's no finessing your way around that.

2. Big tariffs on Chinese e-bikes.

Why do people minimize these? My guess is the industry has a cozy relationship with the name brands, and saying they profit from government regulations doesn't exactly help their cause. And some people are reflexively libertarian and can't stand the thought that their precious bike industry may exploit government in service of profit.

Moreover, R&D on new bikes is expensive. Legacy bike brands already have their hands full designing bikes for actual races, where being cutting edge and winning races is a core part of their brand appeal. They'd probably rather just make an easy buck off ebikes mostly sold to old people (the prime demo in Europe, the prime market). Brands let Bosch and co do all the work, and Bosch can prevent brands from competing prices down (eg Minimum Advertised Pricing), preserving profit margins for itself and the brands. That said, prices even on Bosch bikes do seem to be coming down, and brands are putting more effort into their ebike offerings, especially Specialized, and I'm a fan of Cannondale's Class 3 Canvas 1.

That's not to say that the fancy brands aren't good, they are the gold standard. But the complete vacuum of lower end options just doesn't make sense when every product market has a range of offerings by price, but the European e-bike market... Doesn't.
Fancy brands. I like it. I'm real happy with my unfancy brand Bafang Ultra Frey built bike. :D
 
I was referring to 48v controllers that we use 52v with. I think the L--- Ludacrous is only rated for 60v max also. I could be wrong.
More volts are fine to a point. 72v whew. nuts. Happy holidays to all.
 
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