Big name bikes and Bafang
- Thread starter ruffruff
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Terry777
Guest
It’s simple marketing buddy. I can’t post here why it is or half the forum will tell me what a “yobo” & “boy racer” and cheapskate I am where the other half will... oh... they’re gone already! Lol
reed scott
Well-Known Member
The Bafang motor is not as sophisticated as the European and Japanese motors but is much more powerful. I agree with Terry above. It's like BMW bikes vs KTM or Yamaha/Honda/Suzuki with a dash of aesthetic puritanism thrown in. The Bosch Brose Yamaha crowd is worried us power junkies are going to ruin the whole scene for everybody. This won't change. We will always be on the outs with the purists. We get thrown in with the electric dirt bike crowd and tarred with the same brush. Just the way it is.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I think a lot of it is because the DIY'ers are more likely to go for the Bafang, where the "I don't want to get my hands dirty" (for whatever reason) crowd are more likely going to take their bikes to a dealer.
Dealers are far less likely to handle Bafang than they are the Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, powered stuff. Why? Money. The dealers aren't very likely going to have to compete on the consumer direct level of pricing. Why is simple. They can't. Dealing in Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, allows them to maintain higher profit margins. My thought anyway. -Al
Dealers are far less likely to handle Bafang than they are the Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, powered stuff. Why? Money. The dealers aren't very likely going to have to compete on the consumer direct level of pricing. Why is simple. They can't. Dealing in Bosch, Brose, Yamaha, allows them to maintain higher profit margins. My thought anyway. -Al
Bubba zanetti
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- Trail, BC
Starbucks cred ....
B
BarryS
Guest
Actually that's not True : I work on all kinds of machines . I looked into it heavily . You do save some money but at a cost . I have a Trek Dual Sport 4 and Trek Verve 3 . Both really nice bikes . But no way is the frame and over all makeup the quality level of My VADO. WHICH IS A MUCH BIGGER ooops Bike . Vado 4 2020 $3500 - $500 rebate = 3000 Bafang with the works upgrade $1100 + Trek 1100.00 . After which I need to upgrade to a degree .
So Yeah I save $800 . ANd I may at some point take my Dual Sport and do it . But I'd need bigger tires heavier rims etc etc . PLUS I still like generic Bikes to ride
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
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- Canada
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- Halifax
Back in 2016, I asked this question to Giant's representative present at the Interbike expo.
This is one of Giant's factories [pic below] in Taiwan and they own many more and produce millions of E-bikes a year.
Their warehouse is HUGE and they are a stone's throw away from Bafang headquarters. Why doesn't Giant use Bafang motors?
His answer was along the lines ...
Think about it. You don't have to take my word for it.
World's largest bike manufacturer (Giant) that produces bikes for all budget range, doesn't want to use a certain brand motor for their export products.
Instead, they partnered with Yamaha.
This is one of Giant's factories [pic below] in Taiwan and they own many more and produce millions of E-bikes a year.
Their warehouse is HUGE and they are a stone's throw away from Bafang headquarters. Why doesn't Giant use Bafang motors?
His answer was along the lines ...
- Bafang is a new company in the mid-motor market
- Their mid-motors are still not up to the standard we expect for our export products. Once they meet our standards, we may use them.
- We are unsure of the QC at this point and don't want to take a gamble
Think about it. You don't have to take my word for it.
World's largest bike manufacturer (Giant) that produces bikes for all budget range, doesn't want to use a certain brand motor for their export products.
Instead, they partnered with Yamaha.
JRA
Well-Known Member
While big name brands aren't using Bafang it seems that their M800 road oriented motor is getting some attention from some known name brands such as DeRosa
Bikes Direct among some other china centric models are showing some nice looking drop bar bikes featuring the M800 as well.
The M500/600 mtb/touring/commuter mid motors have had some teething issues but the Dutch brand American Eagle that is owned by Olympic mtb champ Bart Brentjens is making a nice looking FS bike with it, as well as they are sponsored by Bafang.
The in development Forestal bike that has ex DH champ Cedric Gracia on the team is highly anticipated and features a mid drive that was built to their specifications by Bafang and looks more like the M800 than M500/600 to me. Supposed to weigh 1.95kg.
Of course that says nothing about their hub motors which they build more of than any other company that end up on lot's of bikes, DIY and manufactured world wide.
Disclaimer: Not a Bafang fan boi and never even owned one. I just follow the market trends especially in regards to reasonable weight mtb torque assist 750w integral mid drives that are throttle able cause that is what it will take for me to upgrade from what I ride.
Bikes Direct among some other china centric models are showing some nice looking drop bar bikes featuring the M800 as well.
The M500/600 mtb/touring/commuter mid motors have had some teething issues but the Dutch brand American Eagle that is owned by Olympic mtb champ Bart Brentjens is making a nice looking FS bike with it, as well as they are sponsored by Bafang.
The in development Forestal bike that has ex DH champ Cedric Gracia on the team is highly anticipated and features a mid drive that was built to their specifications by Bafang and looks more like the M800 than M500/600 to me. Supposed to weigh 1.95kg.
Of course that says nothing about their hub motors which they build more of than any other company that end up on lot's of bikes, DIY and manufactured world wide.
Disclaimer: Not a Bafang fan boi and never even owned one. I just follow the market trends especially in regards to reasonable weight mtb torque assist 750w integral mid drives that are throttle able cause that is what it will take for me to upgrade from what I ride.
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B
BarryS
Guest
HEY Guys it's like Guitars and Guns : A Friend of mine designed a Trigger for an ISRAELI Gun . A trigger that nobody was able to enhance prior. He sold 1000;s of them . After it was on the Market for 1 year . A Brand Named Company designed almost an exact copy . In fact it was a Copy . All they changed was cosmetics. Can't get patents on Triggers . Or I should say you can but only on parts that nobody else has . Which is impossible . Triggers are all about engineering. Long Story Short . Even though My Friend had the better functioning Trigger . The Company in Israel used teh one from teh Brand Named Character. Bafang is kinda like the Covid Vaccinne . Nobody knows what the Long Term effects are .
I don't see how it wouldn't operate just find. But Yamaha is like a Gold Standard Plus I have never heard bad reports on any of their stuff
I don't see how it wouldn't operate just find. But Yamaha is like a Gold Standard Plus I have never heard bad reports on any of their stuff
AHicks
Well-Known Member
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- USA
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I think the 750w max thing is universal to the US. That makes it a case for what to rate an Ultra at. We all know what it's capable of, or capable of exceeding, but assuming YOU are the manf. for a second, what do you rate it at? I've seen a few rate them at 750w, though I have no idea of where they get that number.
There's no rocket science involved in setting the max amps available to the motor in the controller settings. Set to 15a, you would have a motor that would make no more than 750w while using a 48v battery.
Florida, and Utah I think, both say you can ride an e-bike anywhere you can ride a bicycle. This is assuming I think, that it meets the 750w max rating.
There's no rocket science involved in setting the max amps available to the motor in the controller settings. Set to 15a, you would have a motor that would make no more than 750w while using a 48v battery.
Florida, and Utah I think, both say you can ride an e-bike anywhere you can ride a bicycle. This is assuming I think, that it meets the 750w max rating.
TForan
Well-Known Member
I meant the 1500 watt Ultra as in "uncorked". In my area, it would be off road only but no one cares around here.750W is legal in many states.
WattWagons Bafang Ultra is 750W by default.
I believe Sonders have 750W Ultra as well?
As for 1000W, I think it's legal in Kansas, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Vermont, Virginia and West Virginia?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know this for the fact.
Electric bicycle laws - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
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- Canada
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- Halifax
Bafang has started making many variations of mid-drives.
M300, M400, M500, and M600, etc.
It will be interesting to see how Bafang matures over the years.
M300, M400, M500, and M600, etc.
It will be interesting to see how Bafang matures over the years.
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Terry777
Guest
^^^^^ Guilty! Lol
FlatSix911
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- USA
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- Silicon Valley
I have been looking at the Bafang M800 mid-drive and it seems to be getting a lot of good reviews.
The BD eMulekick is a deal at under $3K and I may purchase one when they are restocked next year.
Gravel/Road bikes 2021 Motobecane eMulekick PRO SL MidDrive Hydraulic Disc Brakes Carbon Forks | Save up to 60% off list prices on new Electric bicycles (bikesdirect.com)
JRA
Well-Known Member
@FlatSix911 If you want one for $3000 you'd better put a ding on your card and a picture under your tree
As an aside Bafang announced the M800 in model year 2017 and it showed up on this bit of bicycle exotica
Diavelo, a subsidiary of ACCEL (Haibike) helped with this.
As an aside Bafang announced the M800 in model year 2017 and it showed up on this bit of bicycle exotica
Diavelo, a subsidiary of ACCEL (Haibike) helped with this.
Asher
Well-Known Member
For whatever reason, people here, in this thread and the forums generally, gloss over two big reasons:
1. The name brand motors are designed for the European market, where speeds are capped at 15 mph. (Something like 1-5% of the market is class 3 s pedelecs, which are stifled by regulations in most places besides BE/CH.) Seems like Bafang excels with motors for higher speeds.
Personally, I know nothing about building and designing motors, but it's quite plausible that it's actually harder to make a lower speed motor work well (not long term reliability, just immediate operation), because the motor has to use a lot of finesse in giving small doses of power relative to what the human rider is putting out. If the motor is putting out 5x what you are, well, there's no finessing your way around that.
2. Big tariffs on Chinese e-bikes.
www.google.com
Why do people minimize these? My guess is the industry has a cozy relationship with the name brands, and saying they profit from government regulations doesn't exactly help their cause. And some people are reflexively libertarian and can't stand the thought that their precious bike industry may exploit government in service of profit.
Moreover, R&D on new bikes is expensive. Legacy bike brands already have their hands full designing bikes for actual races, where being cutting edge and winning races is a core part of their brand appeal. They'd probably rather just make an easy buck off ebikes mostly sold to old people (the prime demo in Europe, the prime market). Brands let Bosch and co do all the work, and Bosch can prevent brands from competing prices down (eg Minimum Advertised Pricing), preserving profit margins for itself and the brands. That said, prices even on Bosch bikes do seem to be coming down, and brands are putting more effort into their ebike offerings, especially Specialized, and I'm a fan of Cannondale's Class 3 Canvas 1.
That's not to say that the fancy brands aren't good, they are the gold standard. But the complete vacuum of lower end options just doesn't make sense when every product market has a range of offerings by price, but the European e-bike market... Doesn't.
1. The name brand motors are designed for the European market, where speeds are capped at 15 mph. (Something like 1-5% of the market is class 3 s pedelecs, which are stifled by regulations in most places besides BE/CH.) Seems like Bafang excels with motors for higher speeds.
Personally, I know nothing about building and designing motors, but it's quite plausible that it's actually harder to make a lower speed motor work well (not long term reliability, just immediate operation), because the motor has to use a lot of finesse in giving small doses of power relative to what the human rider is putting out. If the motor is putting out 5x what you are, well, there's no finessing your way around that.
2. Big tariffs on Chinese e-bikes.
EU to hit Chinese e-bikes imports with tariffs
The European Union will impose duties from Saturday on Chinese electric bicycles to curb cheap imports which European producers say benefit from unfair subsidies and are flooding the market.
www.google.com
Why do people minimize these? My guess is the industry has a cozy relationship with the name brands, and saying they profit from government regulations doesn't exactly help their cause. And some people are reflexively libertarian and can't stand the thought that their precious bike industry may exploit government in service of profit.
Moreover, R&D on new bikes is expensive. Legacy bike brands already have their hands full designing bikes for actual races, where being cutting edge and winning races is a core part of their brand appeal. They'd probably rather just make an easy buck off ebikes mostly sold to old people (the prime demo in Europe, the prime market). Brands let Bosch and co do all the work, and Bosch can prevent brands from competing prices down (eg Minimum Advertised Pricing), preserving profit margins for itself and the brands. That said, prices even on Bosch bikes do seem to be coming down, and brands are putting more effort into their ebike offerings, especially Specialized, and I'm a fan of Cannondale's Class 3 Canvas 1.
That's not to say that the fancy brands aren't good, they are the gold standard. But the complete vacuum of lower end options just doesn't make sense when every product market has a range of offerings by price, but the European e-bike market... Doesn't.
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Slappy
New Member
Others definitely covered the main reasons (EU regulations, supplier relationships, tariffs, warranty), but I'll just say that Bafang is driving a lot of trends in the market. Their focus on power is forcing Bosch, Brose and the others into putting out higher torque motors. Their low pricing is impacting the competitive market as well, no longer can Bosch get away with charging R&M prices. Overall their impact has been a very good thing for e-bike consumers.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Also worth noting that even if Bosch and co didn't sell a single e-bike from now on, it would still have a fat profit stream from charging ~3-4x what some direct sales brands do for replacement batteries.
Brands like it, because it undercuts the used market when a battery costs so much relative to a new bike, that you just buy new instead. New bike sales are the bread and butter of bike shop revenue. IME, bike shops that sell new bikes from the big brands never stock many if any used bikes.
So the Bosch oligopoly prevents competition that would change the rules of the game in the ways that brands would dislike, such as using non proprietary batteries that could be replaced for a couple hundred dollars.
People talk a big game about Bosch reliability, but pedal bikes can last 20 years easy, but we have no idea how long Bosch and co will actually support their proprietary e-bike bits. We already know for a fact that it comes at a great cost, thanks to batteries which regardless of source only last 2-4 years with typical use.
Brands like it, because it undercuts the used market when a battery costs so much relative to a new bike, that you just buy new instead. New bike sales are the bread and butter of bike shop revenue. IME, bike shops that sell new bikes from the big brands never stock many if any used bikes.
So the Bosch oligopoly prevents competition that would change the rules of the game in the ways that brands would dislike, such as using non proprietary batteries that could be replaced for a couple hundred dollars.
People talk a big game about Bosch reliability, but pedal bikes can last 20 years easy, but we have no idea how long Bosch and co will actually support their proprietary e-bike bits. We already know for a fact that it comes at a great cost, thanks to batteries which regardless of source only last 2-4 years with typical use.
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