battery pack manufacturer of Frey AM 1000

[Nearchos]

"Heck, at the prices they're charging they could just state outright exactly how the packs are made"

Amen. This is why I started this thread really.
The most expensive FREY ebike costs as much as a second hand car in Europe. At that price point, you have to answer some questions mate. No answer is also fine, but then you have to give me the chinese price, not the western European price... You can't have everything...

 

[ProphetZarquon]

"Heck, at the prices they're charging they could just state outright exactly how the packs are made"

Amen. This is why I started this thread really.
The most expensive FREY ebike costs as much as a second hand car in Europe. At that price point, you have to answer some questions mate. No answer is also fine, but then you have to give me the chinese price, not the western European price... You can't have everything...

I mean, I agree completely that the details of the battery are critical & should be disclosed.

But Frey's prices are way below any other brands I've found... They're certainly not charging "Western" prices. If you're seeing any bikes with the same components priced within $1000 of Frey's $4K, $7K, or $10K ebikes, please link to them!?

 

[tomjasz]

But Frey's prices are way below any other brands I've found...

Reason for concern and suspicion coupled with their unwillingness to discuss details. What a shame. I like heir bikes and worked on a couple. Dumb marketing decisions!

 

[Nearchos]

I mean, I agree completely that the details of the battery are critical & should be disclosed.

But Frey's prices are way below any other brands I've found... They're certainly not charging "Western" prices. If you're seeing any bikes with the same components priced within $1000 of Frey's $4K, $7K, or $10K ebikes, please link to them!

In the EU, ebikes with 1000W motors are not so widely available due to regulatory constraints. I have the impression that it is easier to get a Bafang M620 in North America. Even some of the chinese producers I've been talking to are a bit hesitant to sell me an ebike with the M620 when they realise I am European.

While we're straying away from the topic of the thread, I think there are quite a few ebikes in these two lists that address your query:

2022 - Top 12 Bafang Ultra M620 Ebikes

I did a list like this in 2020 and it was time for an update. Caveats for criteria: 1) My top 12 might be different than what you would put in there. 2) Must have a dedicated sub-forum on EBR. 3) I tried to include a variety of styles including hard tails, fatties, full suspension and step...

electricbikereview.com

2020 -Top 10 Ebikes With The Bafang G510 Ultra

There is a reason some of the top bikes are using this motor, pure power 160 NM equal 118 foot lbs. of torque, the Bosch is a very good motor but at only 75nm of torque that is only 55 foot pounds of torque, and really it's designed for the European market not the North American market. If you...

electricbikereview.com

 

[Nearchos]

In the EU, ebikes with 1000W motors are not so widely available due to regulatory constraints. I have the impression that it is easier to get a Bafang M620 in North America. Even some of the chinese producers I've been talking to are a bit hesitant to sell me an ebike with the M620 when they realise I am European.

While we're straying away from the topic of the thread, I think there quite a few ebikes in these two lists that address your query:

2022 - Top 12 Bafang Ultra M620 Ebikes

I did a list like this in 2020 and it was time for an update. Caveats for criteria: 1) My top 12 might be different than what you would put in there. 2) Must have a dedicated sub-forum on EBR. 3) I tried to include a variety of styles including hard tails, fatties, full suspension and step...

electricbikereview.com

2020 -Top 10 Ebikes With The Bafang G510 Ultra

There is a reason some of the top bikes are using this motor, pure power 160 NM equal 118 foot lbs. of torque, the Bosch is a very good motor but at only 75nm of torque that is only 55 foot pounds of torque, and really it's designed for the European market not the North American market. If you...

electricbikereview.com

Having said this, defining the meaning of "any bikes with the same components" and then comparing ebikes is actually quite a time consuming exercise, as you will probably appreciate yourself given that you seem to know a lot more about the topic than me...

 

[ProphetZarquon]

Having said this, defining the meaning of "any bikes with the same components" and then comparing ebikes is actually quite a time consuming exercise, as you will probably appreciate yourself given that you seem to know a lot more about the topic than me...

I did indeed spend about 6 months comparing before seeking purchase approval, & as you may have noticed from my comments in those threads, I didn't find any others that satisfied (most notably by way of comparison, I wanted brakes I trust & good suspension).

The Quietkat Jeep on that list has come down in price, but 1) it's still more expensive for what you get & 2) it's... a Frey with new badges.

As for their batteries, most of the companies on that list seem to use similar or identical battery construction; though I'd love to be surprised on that point. Luna & WattWagons are perhaps the best chance for an exception there; but there's the premium pricing again. (Also, Luna & WattWagons have each been facing delays every bit as significant as the fully-disclosed wait from Frey, have no local support in my area either, & the replacement controllers are... not how I'd go about an upgrade.)

Ultimately, the AM1000 v5 cost enough less than comparables, that the savings would cover the cost of getting a properly protected battery built by a local pack assembler in our area.

 

[tomjasz]

Luna

I’m thinking that’s to broad of a statement. All batteries other than their potted are the same old same old crap. A compelling question I have is if they build the potted packs in the USA as claimed, why aren’t they available?

 

[Nearchos]

The Quietkat Jeep on that list has come down in price, but 1) it's still more expensive for what you get & 2) it's... a Frey with new badges.

Ultimately, the AM1000 v5 cost enough less than comparables, that the savings would cover the cost of getting a properly protected battery built by a local pack assembler in our area.

If it is of any interest to you, the Jeeps are made by these guys: https://www.jobobikes.com/electric-...ular-mid-drive-mountain-ebike-26inch-4-0.html
I understand that Watt Wagons buy in China, but assemble in the USA.

If you know yourself, could you please let me know which high quality battery case can replace the one on the AM1000 V5 a) seamlessly b) on the models being sold today?

a) By seamlessly, I mean you throw the case of the V5 away, open the box of the new battery case, put it on the V5, charge it and off you go. No tinkering around, no screw drivers etc. at all. I am not an ebike expert like you guys. With no disrespect to the profession, I would rather avoid learning too much of this craft; i just want to charge it and ride it like most people.

b) by being sold today, I mean what's the replacement of the battery case they sell Now. Not the one they sold in (2018), 2020, 2021.
I have seen a couple of posts to this effect, but with no detailed specs of the battery cases being offered right Now, I am not sure I can take the risk.

Your idea is not terrible but it might not be easily applicable on existing dimensions, cabling and plugs...
Even if I concede that in order to hold this discussion seriously, I have to wake up out of my "seamless" dream and accept that I will have to pull out the screw driver and replace the battery craddle at least if I want another battery case on the V5, I still do not have enough info to say this is a viable alternative as things currently stand. A low maintenance, viable alternative.


Thanks in advance for any inputs.

 

[ProphetZarquon]

If it is of any interest to you, the Jeeps are made by these guys: https://www.jobobikes.com/electric-...ular-mid-drive-mountain-ebike-26inch-4-0.html
I understand that Watt Wagons buy in China, but assemble in the USA.

If you know yourself, could you please let me know which high quality battery case can replace the one on the AM1000 V5 a) seamlessly b) on the models being sold today?

a) By seamlessly, I mean you throw the case of the V5 away, open the box of the new battery case, put it on the V5, charge it and off you go. No tinkering around, no screw drivers etc. at all. I am not an ebike expert like you guys. With no disrespect to the profession, I would rather avoid learning too much of this craft; i just want to charge it and ride it like most people.

b) by being sold today, I mean what's the replacement of the battery case they sell Now. Not the one they sold in (2018), 2020, 2021.
I have seen a couple of posts to this effect, but with no detailed specs of the battery cases being offered right Now, I am not sure I can take the risk.

Your idea is not terrible but it might not be easily applicable on existing dimensions, cabling and plugs...
Even if I concede that in order to hold this discussion seriously, I have to wake up out of my "seamless" dream and accept that I will have to pull out the screw driver and replace the battery craddle at least if I want another battery case on the V5, I still do not have enough info to say this is a viable alternative as things currently stand. A low maintenance, viable alternative.


Thanks in advance for any inputs.

The Dorado style case (along with many others) is easily available through Jenny Mao who's very active on these forums...

The case is great.

The case is not a problem; what's inside the case could be: Neither Frey nor Biktrix nor any other ebikes priced within $1000 of the components on the Frey, use a full per-cell BMS which would allow charge leveling of each cell inside.

As someone else in this thread noted, once you know exactly what cells, materials & BMS features to ask for, even "the infamous UnitPackPower" might be able to follow directions well enough to build a top-performing pack with A+ safety features. Rather than ask for a premium-quality battery build from a remote supplier, I have opted to buy enough packs to get the cells I want cheaply, & use a local engineer for any BMS builds.

The cells on any pack priced comparable to those from Frey, likewise packed together into a Dorado case (), each likewise lacked a secondary set of wiring to allow measuring\charging each cell individually (): I could barely find complete packs for the prices Frey charges to throw Samsung cells in a mainstream case; significantly better packs cost a lot more... so much more, that buying the packs from Frey just to part them out later at the first sign of degradation, became a cost-effective option.

Side note: Packing in thermolytic gel is cool, but I don't know how easy it is to get the cells apart again, when a fully potted pack (cells encased in poured plastic) inevitably has one cell go bad long before the others?

 

[Nearchos]

The cells on any pack ... likewise packed together into a Dorado case (), each likewise lacked a secondary set of wiring to allow measuring\charging each cell individually ():

Packing in thermolytic gel is cool, but I don't know how easy it is to get the cells apart again, when a fully potted pack (cells encased in poured plastic) inevitably has one cell go bad long before the others?

newbie question coming your way:

By "secondary set of wiring" do you mean pure-nickel plated connectors connecting All the cells within a group, or wiring between the cell groups please?

 

[Nearchos]

Newbie question number two, all inputs welcome.

Below you will find the answers a chinese battery pack maker sent me by email recently. Any comment is welcome, but my question refers to Q5 below. Money is no issue, I don't want to burn the house to save a few bucks on the battery pack.

What would you tell him to do with the BMS to make it more efficient and firesafe??




1.Q: what is the separation/insulation you employ between the cell groups?
A: The battery cells are insulated with insulating materials such as flame-retardant brackets, epoxy resin boards, green bare paper, and heat-shrinkable sleeves.



2.Q: What is the maximum current limit of the battery case at this configuration (48V 10.4Ah)?
A: Generally, the fuse current of the external circuit of the battery pack we produce is 40A (within 500 milli-second), and the short-circuit protection of the BMS is 200A (within 500 micro-second). (When a short circuit occurs within micro-second, the BMS will act first, and the external circuit fuse will not be blown. After it is restored, the battery pack returns to normal. If the BMS is broken, the external circuit fuse will blow)



3. Q: does the battery case have a digital bus? Is it a CAN bus?
A: If the battery case has enough ports (4 pins and above), CAN BUS can be used



4. Q: which metal welds the cells to each other? How do you connect the battery cells within the same group of the battery pack?
A:The battery pack uses nickel strips or nickel-plated steel strips for series and parallel connection. We apply electric resistance welding to make the connections.



5. Q: is there any padding between the BMS and the cell groups? Is the BMS insulated? With which material?
A: We apply epoxy resin board and EVA foam to make filling and insulation between BMS and battery pack

 

[tomjasz]

newbie question coming your way:

By "secondary set of wiring" do you mean pure-nickel plated connectors connecting All the cells within a group, or wiring between the cell groups please?

This mad man helped me develop my BBSxx series troubleshooting skills in 2015. A good overview.

 

[ProphetZarquon]

newbie question coming your way:

By "secondary set of wiring" do you mean pure-nickel plated connectors connecting All the cells within a group, or wiring between the cell groups please?

No: Cells are wired together with metal plates or strips to form a battery (preferably via pure-nickel strips (or platinum, etc)), but a secondary set of wires are required, if each cell is to be individually measured for charge & balanced (brought to level with the other cells).

Even batteries which do have an actual BMS, will typically only run one BMS wire to each set of cells...

As illustrated here, where each set of 5 parallel cells are wired to the BMS, while those sets of 5p are all connected together in a series of 13...

In the photo below, the metal plates (which should be pure nickel, or another material highly resistant to oxidation) bolted to the ends of the cells, connect each cell to its neighbors in series; those big plates/strips carry the high current discharge of the cells to the motor controller. The small white wires connect each pair of cells to the BatteryManagementSystem, making it possible to monitor them for "balance charging".

Note how the BMS in the photo, displays the Voltage of each pair of cells. To determine the Voltage of every cell, would require a separate BMS wire to every cell. Balancing the Voltage of each set of cells is a common compromise, since it's much cheaper\easier to build a BMS that monitors 6 lines, than 78!

A battery with BMS adds considerable electronics, wiring & assembly cost. (Additionally, a balance charger is more expensive than a regular charger.) If a reliable electrical engineer is available in your area, it can be worthwhile to get the cells desired & have a local engineer do final assembly & testing. If buying remotely, it's good to specify exactly what BMS features you want (IE "balance charging") & ask for photos of the wiring inside.

 

[Nearchos]

These. are. SO USEFUL!!

Thank you very much!!

 

[tommychiang]

Hi guys I just order a frey am1000 v6 from their US distributor I have the same question as the other guy, how can I buy a fatter battery pack for it? The 21ah is nice, but would be cool if I could somehow get more, like 24! Anyone know anybody that could build one or where to order??