Battery life in hot climates
- Thread starter Desert Rider
- Start date
Well of course, why wouldn't you trust a company that is under criminal investigation for developing the cheat hardware that Volkswagen used to lie to the EPA in Dieselgate?
2 years until obsolescence of the bike itself seems a bit short. There would be better batteries and (slightly) improved motors in 2 years, but unlikely any major break-through in mechanical parts, or such a break-through might not be worth paying for, if the old mechanicals still work.
According to Grin Technologies, keeping battery in 20-80% extends its life quite significantly, from 2 to 5 years if memory doesn't fail me. Though I wouldn't expect a bike bought today to become really obsolete in 5 years either, i.e. the bike itself. Btw, they sell programmable chargers that can be set to 80 or 90%. Luna have some too, at (much) lower cost, though without a cool display.
Yeah, I just today watched Court's video from August 2015 of Grin's operation. Very informative. Justin mentioned that the 80% max charge figure is the more critical of the two. In fact I THINK he said he had not seen any degradation from fully depleting the battery. However, he may have changed that viewpoint in the interim period; you should look at their website to be sure.
Have learned myself a lot from this video, - battery part begins at Minute 17. Had to watch it again, it's very condensed.
There is always a degradation, every cycle takes something away.
What he says is that operating 0-60% range is "better" than in 20-80%.
He is not a Gospel, batteries technology is developing fast, but the upper limit less than 90% has not been disproved yet in the industry.
Note the balancing part - BMS should be able to function properly below 90%.
And - yes, keep away from heat during both charging and discharging, there is no arguing about this.
There is always a degradation, every cycle takes something away.
What he says is that operating 0-60% range is "better" than in 20-80%.
He is not a Gospel, batteries technology is developing fast, but the upper limit less than 90% has not been disproved yet in the industry.
Note the balancing part - BMS should be able to function properly below 90%.
And - yes, keep away from heat during both charging and discharging, there is no arguing about this.
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
There is a difference b/w outdated and Obsolete!
I said outdated, not obsolete.
Yes, I understand that. We study battery materials much more deeper than Grin Tech or most E-bike companies.
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
Great infographic!
Outdated = old-fashioned, out of date.
In other words - there will be new models in 2 years that will look better or different (often same thing for a fashion-driven consumer).
Yeah, well - to each his own. To me ebike is a transportation and activity, fashion trend that might change in 2 years doesn't worry me much
In other words - there will be new models in 2 years that will look better or different (often same thing for a fashion-driven consumer).
Yeah, well - to each his own. To me ebike is a transportation and activity, fashion trend that might change in 2 years doesn't worry me much
Last edited:
Well this may be one of the reasons why eBike sales rate are so low, think about it. In Court's review of the Raleigh he pointed out that a bike that sells for $400 in a non-electric version costs over 2k in the ebike version. If the life span of the battery is 2 years before you have to pay hundreds to replace the battery (assuming you can even find a replacement) only a very well off person is going to consider buying one. Although electric car sales are pitiful (we're talking about .01% or less of total sales even after massive subsidies to try to make them palatable) imagine what they would be like if their batteries had to be replaced every 2 years? I have multiple non-electric bikes and they run well after 10 years or more. They may not have the latest technology, but they work as well as when they were new and if a part fails it's simple to replace the component - I'm not told to toss the bike. If manufacturers want to keep ebike sales limited to a small number of early adopters they can continue what they're doing - keeping everything proprietary and giving out misinformation that keeps the lifespan of these bikes low. They'll keep selling a few to people who have to have the latest gadgets but they will never reach a mass market audience that isn't going to mess around with trying to find out information on their own to maintain their investment. If there was even one manufacturer that made a unit with easily replaceable parts and a BMS that allowed you to select a charging percentage that could either maximize life or maximize range so that a user wouldn't need a PHD in battery theory to keep the bike going for more than a couple of years maybe they would help normalize ebikes. I'm not a particularly "green" person, but it's of some importance to me and although I don't know for sure after getting into this topic a bit I feel like I'm hurting the environment by buying bikes that require constant changes of lithium batteries and that have a lifespan of a few years at most. I'm actually thinking that buying a motorcycle would actually be much greener since you're not being asked to throw the thing into a landfill after a couple of years. Does anyone know what happens to used batteries? Do they at least get recycled and reused or do they get tossed into a landfill?
Agreed.. Buy a quality bike and drive system and you can enjoy your ebike for many years. The worst thing you can do is replace your bike every couple of years, since depreciation is about 50% in 2 years.
As far as partial charge or full charge life cycles, don't worry about it.. If you need to use the full range from the battery, use it! The difference in operating costs is neglibible, ie. a battery will last maybe 5 years instead of 3 years.. Who really cares about that when the added enjoyment of using your bike to its fullest range is considered.
The most significant expense is again depreciation, just like a car. So take good care of your bike, store it in a cool room, and use it!
ibstevie
New Member
Another forum post on EBR was by a guy in Phoenix who said he deals with the heat-battery issue by only riding his ebike in winter or at night.
In Southern Nevada a lot of the paved bikeways in Henderson and Boulder City are in mountainous areas entirely off (thank gawd) of traffic filled streets. Not being able to use those pathways except at certain times is depressing.
The posts dealing with more research is needed on lithium batteries fail to recognize that a lot of time and money has already been spent in this area.
Not the case (I hope). Finding a replacement can be a problem, though it's getting easier now, just stay away from proprietary shape or those "picky" models that reject off-brand battery.
Why are we even talking about 2 years battery life? Can be 4 years and can be one, depends on how you use it - assuming it wasn't poorly made from the beginning. There was a suggestion earlier in the thread that charging only to 90% to extend battery life isn't worth an effort because in 2 years the bike itself will become outdated. First, this isn't an effort when you use a programmable charger - expensive from Grin, more simple version from Luna. Second, - why the bike would become outdated in 2 years or why should I be worried about this if both battery and the bike are still working? If somebody can afford buying a new ebike every 2 years and for this reason chooses not to take care of his battery - good for him, many other people can't, so let's talk how to make it last longer.
I suspect that many of them are not recycled. The process is expensive, recovered materials won't even cover labor costs. "Maybe" they do this in China, with cheap labor and no environment protection, can't say. There is a province there thriving on recycling, something they don't want tourists to see. Horrible place, big city looking like a dumpster, bonfires and small furnaces on every corner, melting copper and other metals out. Deadly fumes, smoke, no filters, people digging through heaps of refuse, picking pieces that can be taken apart and recycled. All this eventually comes back to you, because China isn't on the Moon and the globe is round as you know.
Back to the topic - heat. Are there any indications that Li batteries require temperature-compensated charging, i.e. adjusting the voltage when the ambient goes above 80F or below 70F?
Last edited:
hmagoo
New Member
I have one of probably only several Ampler bikes in the US so I am not looking forward to replacing the battery in the downtube. It is 102F with 13 percent humidity right now. I kept my bike in a wine cellar at work and when I got home after the 4 mile 15 minute trip the battery temp was up to ambient but at least not above that. That's all I have to deal with, probably have a good twenty days above 115F here but I think it will be acceptable. I have no idea if the BMS balances the cells below 90 percent so I will probably give it a full charge every once in a while. Battery life seems a little better in the warm temps but not sure. I'm getting about 3 percent per mile discharge lately with the 48V 5.8Ah battery. I'm sure that it is better to not plug it in when it is warm. Temperature aware Car alternators barely have a chance to charge the batteries out here. Desert Life....
At 8 miles a day you should have that battery a long time! If I were you I'd contact Ampler and ask them how you would get a replacement battery pack in a few years, if they are no longer in business.
Manny Wheaton
New Member
I live in Boise Idaho and only had 60 charges out of my Bosch PowerPack battery before it failed. My co worker's failed at 85 charges and the are $1,000 to replace. I'm asking if Bosch can warranty mine or I'm going to another solution entirely. I was about to buy another Bosch bike system but waiting to hear back.
Alphbetadog
Active Member
As ebikes become more popular and common, I'm confident that aftermarket companies will respond to the need and either sell replacement batteries and/or rebuild them. Seems to be a lot of smart young guys jumping into the "me too" ebike business, but I'm certain some will see the opportunity in the the battery replacement business.
I think it is kind of silly to worry about your ebike becoming obsolete. As long as your battery can be replaced/renewed, and you maintain it, the bike will be just as useful and fun to ride as it was when you first bought it. Sure there will be more modern ones available, but doesn't mead the older ones aren't fun.
I think it is kind of silly to worry about your ebike becoming obsolete. As long as your battery can be replaced/renewed, and you maintain it, the bike will be just as useful and fun to ride as it was when you first bought it. Sure there will be more modern ones available, but doesn't mead the older ones aren't fun.
Christopher85083
Active Member
Old thread, but figured this might be useful. I have put nearly 5k miles on ebikes in Phoenix, and have just over 3k on my current bike, a 2014 Haibike xDuro 29er. I replaced the battery under warranty at about 2,700 miles. The shop ran the full diagnostics and gave me several pages of data from all components of the bike; the battery, the motor, and the display. All components had their software updated. At the time of failure, the battery was performing like normal, but after a 20 mile ride it just wouldn't charge anymore. The LED lights would only show two solid bars, as I recall. Range had decreased from new condition, but not drastically and I considered it within expectations. The battery diagnostics showed the following: Battery voltage: 29.6V Battery temperature: 90.9F Battery charge level: 4% Number of full charge cycles: 50.2 Max temp over lifetime: 139.21F Min temp over lifetime: 60.13F Duration in thermal protection: 87s (the shop said this was good for Phoenix) Delivered Ah over lifetime: 559 Ah
"Wouldn't charge anymore" - interesting. Like, you plug it in and it wouldn't take any charge, remaining at the same voltage or same 2 bars? Battery charge level: 4% - sounds like it was deeply discharged, way below than it should've. Delivered Ah over lifetime: 559 Ah - this I don't understand. Considering 12,000AH battery, this would be just 20-21 full cycles, not 50 like they said. Not very impressive, for this expensive brand.
Christopher85083
Active Member
Right, it just wouldn't charge. The battery wasn't hot, it was May so it was maybe 80's on my morning ride? When I plugged it in to charge at work like normal, it just wouldn't charge. The guys at the bike shop I took it to plugged it into the Bosch diagnostic tool and couldn't figure it out, either. 4% charge does seem awfully low, but some of that was from after the problem began. When I arrived at work I still had 5-6 miles of range left, and I used that up on the way from my work to the bike shop in the afternoon. When I arrived at the bike shop I was down to 4%. Just a battery failure, but I agree - I expected a lot more life out of it.
Similar threads
