Bafang Ultra - steel or nylon gear?
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Ebkr33 - the X1 uses the M600 motor. You could drop one in tomorrow. Luna does list the Peek gear for sale on their website look under Parts/ Luna parts. FWIW Luna had the Peek gear available for awhile, at least a year or so. I think they originally made the gear for the BBSHD Ludecrius model (not spelled correct). Then they were going to offer an option to pair it up with the Ultra Mag motor until that whole show fell off the table.
I agree 120% with Mr. WW as far as making the motor one size fits all in a sense. Motor will handle almost anything you can throw at it. By only having to swap out the controllers and not the internals puts him in the smart zone. If I sell my bike the next guy can upgrade to the 2300w version by sending it off to Boston for a little table time and voila... same motor different power. Only issue is they would need is to have a battery rated for 50a. All the battery's I have been making for my friends I use a 50a rated BMS so they can allways upgrade and still use the same battery. Kinda like what Pushkar is doing by keeping the steel gear as part of the deal.
Now in the future if a plastic piece rated for the task becomes available then all bets are off.
Not to stray to far from the topic, which I have, But making his own bike model with a lot of different options ( tire sizes ) is really smart. Now you can have a 27.5" mountain bike and probably spend an additional grand to build up some 26" fatties and a new rear triangle makes for a great option. Not sure if his rear dropout is set up for 27.5"/ 29" like my bike has.. just a thought. But a one bike fits all is pretty smart.
I agree 120% with Mr. WW as far as making the motor one size fits all in a sense. Motor will handle almost anything you can throw at it. By only having to swap out the controllers and not the internals puts him in the smart zone. If I sell my bike the next guy can upgrade to the 2300w version by sending it off to Boston for a little table time and voila... same motor different power. Only issue is they would need is to have a battery rated for 50a. All the battery's I have been making for my friends I use a 50a rated BMS so they can allways upgrade and still use the same battery. Kinda like what Pushkar is doing by keeping the steel gear as part of the deal.
Now in the future if a plastic piece rated for the task becomes available then all bets are off.
Not to stray to far from the topic, which I have, But making his own bike model with a lot of different options ( tire sizes ) is really smart. Now you can have a 27.5" mountain bike and probably spend an additional grand to build up some 26" fatties and a new rear triangle makes for a great option. Not sure if his rear dropout is set up for 27.5"/ 29" like my bike has.. just a thought. But a one bike fits all is pretty smart.
Ebiker33
Well-Known Member
That stock 750W ultra with a 25amp controller with the PEEK gear would work, sacrifice power for less noise.
I think if you could make the PEEK gear work with the X1 1000w 30a version you would be in the sweat spot for both power and noise.
But that would required some serious testing, I am sure you could get some volunteers within your WW customer base.
I think if you could make the PEEK gear work with the X1 1000w 30a version you would be in the sweat spot for both power and noise.
But that would required some serious testing, I am sure you could get some volunteers within your WW customer base.
I'm not a WW customer but i'm riding a Ultra with the X1 Archon controller 1000W version and would love to buy a replacement nylon gear from WW.
Pushkar you are sure very busy, but please make it happen! Maybe in collaboration with Luna?
Ebiker33
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You don't want the nylon gear, it will get shredded, it's the composite PEEK gear you want.
TForan
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It won't at 1000 watts and use the gears properly.
AHicks
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I think folks, maybe those that are not engineers for instance, may be using the generic word "nylon" when "composite" might be the better term.
And TForan's bike uses the early G510 Ultra motor with the plastic gear - that he hasn't managed to tear up yet. Add that to the fact that the BBSHD motors, with power ratings similar to the Ultra, are also using plastic gears - fairly successfully. You don't hear a lot of people complaining about those. That's actually why I would be more than willing to try one in my Ultra... -Al
TomD
Well-Known Member
I recall seeing some failures of the Luna PEEK gear in the M600 with ludi controller (close to the power of the stock Ultra). Not sure if that's due to the M600 motor being susceptible to overheating (and more so with the ludi controller) but I just don't see it being worth the tradeoff on the Ultra. I don't really find noise from the steel gear objectionable on my Ultra. I really hated it on the M600 and am much happier with the PEEK gear in the M600. It's still noisy, but a more pleasant tone.
Ebiker33
Well-Known Member
The BBSHD has the same torque rating as the Ultra at stock, both can be pushed , as WW has proven the ultra even more so, but just like they have done with the throttle for the IGH, if a person chose to go with a 1000W, limits could be imposed, I think they would be fine, but I don't know.....more testing is required. Of coarse pushing these motors to their maximum abilities could produce failures, but running stock specs seems to work fine, TForan ultra has the weaker nylon gear still going so there is a prime example.
AHicks
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Back in the days of the muscle cars, even talking the super bikes, you heard about a few owners who weren't able to keep their motors together to save their lives. My thought is, for every one of those types, there were thousands that never had a minute's trouble with stuff just dripping with available power.
Point being, I think there should be steel gears available for the crazies, but geez, give the rest of us the ability to use available plastic technology for a quiet ride. Don't assume that because it's possible to tear a part up, that it's going to have an exotic failure rate if used as designed.
TomD
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree that sentiment. That said, when my Ultra gets loud it's when I'm asking a lot from the motor. My Luna X1 M600 (non-ludi) gets really hot on moderate climbs so I don't think it's necessarily folks being unreasonable with the ludi M600. Perhaps the Ultra would fare better than BBSHD or M600 with more room to dissipate heat.
Ebiker33
Well-Known Member
High temperature resistance
PEEK melts at about 400 Degrees Celsius and is capable of running in environments of 300-325 Degrees without deforming. While PTFE can withstand up to 250 Degrees, any pressure/ load on PTFE at this temperature will invariably cause deformation. In the case of PEEK, its hardness allows it to be in a high-load-high-temperature environment without loss of dimensional properties.
If you are running your M600 at over 300 degrees you have "other" issues
pushkar
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We explored a carbon re-inforced PEEK gear for the ultra. The issue is that its not just the temp rating (320 celcius), but also pressure. As the RPM increases, we get close to both shearing limits, temp limits, etc. The idea is to not do just one gear but all gears - otherwise the metal gears themselves generate too much heat that adversely affects the sole PEEK gear. Weird problem. lol.
The ideal way to do this is to go complete 100% CF infused PEEK for all gears. It will reduce the overall wattage to 2000W peak, but we can get super quiet performance with only the stator whine (typical DC motor whine), while minimizing thermal issues. This adds a bunch to the cost , and at that point TBH it is cheaper to build your own motor.
We have a LOT on our plate so we are happy to work with someone who is doing this but wont have bandwidth in 2021 / 2022 to do gear stuff.
Overall, in terms of noise, Is there another motor above 700W that is quieter that we can compare to ?
The ideal way to do this is to go complete 100% CF infused PEEK for all gears. It will reduce the overall wattage to 2000W peak, but we can get super quiet performance with only the stator whine (typical DC motor whine), while minimizing thermal issues. This adds a bunch to the cost , and at that point TBH it is cheaper to build your own motor.
We have a LOT on our plate so we are happy to work with someone who is doing this but wont have bandwidth in 2021 / 2022 to do gear stuff.
Overall, in terms of noise, Is there another motor above 700W that is quieter that we can compare to ?
reed scott
Well-Known Member
I don't even think it's really a 'whine'. To me it's a soprano purr.I actually think the gear whine noise is cool. Makes people get out of my way.
Actually contralto or even alto.
reed scott
Well-Known Member
Seems to me I've seen somebody selling that plastic gear. Maybe Bakcou hunting bikes.
AHicks
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Speaking from my own experience, I would offer that the MAC geared hubs are almost silent. A LOT quieter than the Ultra. And then there are the other, older generation BBSxx motors that are way quieter.
And while on that thought, would be cool if somebody came up with a RELIABLE torque sensor, and controller to accommodate it, for the BBSHD. Betting something like that might cut into the Ultra's sales numbers.
onlineaddy
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I don't hear the BBSHD motor on my bike.
pushkar
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Weirdly I hear bbshd more on my bike than Ultra. I was surprised. I’m sure I’m in the minority on this one.
