Bafang M600? Updated 8/14/22

[AHicks]

Is anyone actually riding an M600 powered bike? My question is regarding your first hand impression regarding the programming as you received it. Low speed control? Torque sensing?

I just ran across the Evolo Atlas.
https://evelo.com/products/atlas/

It's an M600 driven belt drive running an Enviolo CVT that's really piqued my interest. Checks nearly all my "must have" boxes, and it's different enough from anything else I've ridden where I find myself pretty interested.... The issue is the fact it's new, and there's no feed back.

Not interested in what CAN be done with it, the fact it's CANbus, or some changes might be possible using a BESST tool. What I AM looking for is info on the way it came from Bafang. The reason for my curiosity is that I'm very aware of how the Ultra's are delivered, which is a total mess. Not interested in stepping in to another project like that. Bike will be used on paved or packed surfaces, including mixed traffic on occasion. I think there's enough power where climbing power will be suitable, but might be worth mentioning a lot of my riding is in the hills.

Thanks! -Al

 

[TomD]

The stock M600 programming is acceptable (much better the Ultra). Luna put garbage firmware on their M600s prior to mid 2021 which really soured me on my X1, made it unusable at lower PAS. However, their latest firmware is much improved, better than the stock M600 I think. If you can get a BESST tool there are a few firmware files you can try if you don't like the stock programming.

Edit: keep in mind the M600 is also obnoxiously loud. I find the Ultra tolerable, but the M600 drove me nuts. A peek reduction gear can restore your sanity, but extra cost and my void your warranty.

 

[AHicks]

Geez, thanks Tom! I thought I had heard the latest and greatest M600's came with a nylon gear? Or maybe that was just wishful thinking. Will run that question past Evelo. I remember all of the hoopla regarding that noise when the first brought the 600 out. Not a fan of that noise either....

The BESST tool and experimenting with different files is something I was hoping to avoid.

This bike is not cheap, and investing another several hundred to get it "right" is something else I was hoping to avoid. Neat bike, but not THAT neat.....

 

[TomD]

Also, throttle is kind of a yawn, I think because it's programmed to be PAS dependent. In lower PAS (where you are normally riding) it's not like you get full power when you throttle on the ultra. Even in PAS 5 it's not going to accelerate like a 750W motor. The 600W nominal rating is probably about right, maybe closer to 500W.

Personally I would opt for Ravi's offering in this price range if looking for a belt drive. Better looking and better placement of spare, even if it is lower power and doesn't come with throttle. Or wait to see what comes of the Valeo motor if you want more power.

 

[AHicks]

PAS dependent throttle sounds like a PIA. I'm used to having all available power available to my thumb for crossing busy roads. Something like that could cause an interesting moment if I were not prepared! That's a perfect example of the kind of info I'm looking for. Sounds like another question for Evolo. They seem to thing THEIR software is without issues (of course!).

I looked at the Zen bikes, agree they're better looking, but immediately blew them off for the decision to run Bosch power. NOT a fan of proprietary parts that force me to deal with dealers for service. Non negotiable big red flag there.

Thank You for taking a minute to share. Much appreciated! -Al

 

[AHicks]

I asked Evolo about the throttle, and the noisey steel gear. Here's their response:
Al,
Adding a throttle is simply plug in and install on the handlebars (does require removing the grip and moving the brake lever). There is no need to flash anything. The throttle power is full power in all assist levels and available from a stop.

We were also warned of the volume associated with this motor and got our first sample with a pretty loud motor (had Bafang factory settings). Our final production sample still uses the metal gears but the motor is considerably quieter than we expected. Apparently the programming makes a big difference and we run our own designed motor settings on the M600.

Regarding the "quieter" motor, being familiar with the sine wave vs. square wave controllers, and the newer setup that I can't remember the name of at the moment, this is almost believable. Wishfull thinking? -Al

 

[Gionnirocket]

I asked Evolo about the throttle, and the noisey steel gear. Here's their response:
Al,
Adding a throttle is simply plug in and install on the handlebars (does require removing the grip and moving the brake lever). There is no need to flash anything. The throttle power is full power in all assist levels and available from a stop.

We were also warned of the volume associated with this motor and got our first sample with a pretty loud motor (had Bafang factory settings). Our final production sample still uses the metal gears but the motor is considerably quieter than we expected. Apparently the programming makes a big difference and we run our own designed motor settings on the M600.

Regarding the "quieter" motor, being familiar with the sine wave vs. square wave controllers, and the newer setup that I can't remember the name of at the moment, this is almost believable. Wishfull thinking? -Al

I think gear gurgle and motor hum due to the controller would fall under 2 different causes of noise

 

[AHicks]

I think gear gurgle and motor hum due to the controller would fall under 2 different causes of noise

Your point? Agree there's 2 way different sources, but both are noticed most under acceleration, especially at lower speeds. That square wave noise is no hum in my experience. More of a ringing noise.

Whatever. If they say the newest version isn't as noisey as the original, I would really like to believe them. Peek gear (100 bucks), and the couple hours it would take to install it, not that objectionable -IF- the bike were to come with programming I could live with. -Al

 

[Gionnirocket]

My point is that this discussion started assuming that the noise was the all metal gears and their response addressed programming as the cause.
I'd believe them to be perceived by the rider differently. It probably suffers from both so _ _ _ _ _ _ _

 

[AHicks]

My point is that this discussion started assuming that the noise was the all metal gears and their response addressed programming as the cause.
I'd believe them to be perceived by the rider differently. It probably suffers from both so _ _ _ _ _ _ _

So you don't believe them? Why the impression that it "probably suffers from both" type noises? Does your BBS02 have audible controller noise?

Actually, I'm more interested in the programming they are delivered with.

Thanks, -Al

 

[TomD]

Interesting. Could be that Luna programmed their M600 to be PAS dependent, at least the pre-2021 firmware version I have. I heard Bafang had some liability concerns and the reason for Luna having custom firmware was partially a mandate from Bafang they dial power back at lower PAS, so that makes sense they would also make throttle PAS dependent. The geniuses at Luna opted to put the same firmware on both ludi and non-ludi which is why my non-ludi M600 was unsuable at low PAS.

A bit surprised to hear Evelo has custom M600 firmware, while larger customers like Biktrix are still in the cold when it comes to alternative firmware for the CANBUS ultras. Perhaps the M600 has seen more firmware development and is easier for them to tweak.

I'm skeptical that programming would make the motor quieter. A lot of folks thought I was overreacting to the noise and that it would quiet down over time. Then again pretty much all of them upgraded to the silent gear later, ha. I guess you don't have a lot to lose with Evelo's return policy.

 

[AHicks]

Interesting. Could be that Luna programmed their M600 to be PAS dependent, at least the pre-2021 firmware version I have. I heard Bafang had some liability concerns and the reason for Luna having custom firmware was partially a mandate from Bafang they dial power back at lower PAS, so that makes sense they would also make throttle PAS dependent. The geniuses at Luna opted to put the same firmware on both ludi and non-ludi which is why my non-ludi M600 was unsuable at low PAS.

A bit surprised to hear Evelo has custom M600 firmware, while larger customers like Biktrix are still in the cold when it comes to alternative firmware for the CANBUS ultras. Perhaps the M600 has seen more firmware development and is easier for them to tweak.

I'm skeptical that programming would make the motor quieter. A lot of folks thought I was overreacting to the noise and that it would quiet down over time. Then again pretty much all of them upgraded to the silent gear later, ha. I guess you don't have a lot to lose with Evelo's return policy.

Regarding the potential for PAS dependent throttle in the programming, that would be no surprise here. Seems like I ran across that potential when messing with the Ultra.

Right there with you on the Biktrix claims for "custom" programming. They seem to be talking the talk, but having a much tougher time walking the walk.... on the Ultra's anyway.

Skeptical on the Evolo noise claim here too, though as mentioned, 100 bucks will kill most of that potential. I'd pay that to do the same on my Ultra in a heartbeat. And speaking of the Ultra, it does seem to be getting quieter as the miles start stacking up on it, or possibly I'm just getting used to it.

Still looking for input from those riding recently received M600 powered bikes. Very interested in riding impressions. -Al

 

[Gionnirocket]

Why the impression that it "probably suffers from both" type noises?

Gleaned from what has been posted in this thread

Does your BBS02 have audible controller noise?

It isn't silent... but low enough to not understand the source

 

[vincent]

this is probably no help but i had an flx bike with the m600 and really liked it , have no idea if they program them etc

but night and day with my stock ultra
the m600 was very smooth programming to me

but this bike was most likely uart- i did not try to program it at all- and it was 2-3 years ago

sold it to a friend and they still have it

if ravi was not building a step thru hub motor i would own a flx step thru with m600, if i see a used one at a good price would grab it just for friends etc

 

[AHicks]

this is probably no help but i had an flx bike with the m600 and really liked it , have no idea if they program them etc

but night and day with my stock ultra
the m600 was very smooth programming to me

but this bike was most likely uart- i did not try to program it at all- and it was 2-3 years ago

sold it to a friend and they still have it

if ravi was not building a step thru hub motor i would own a flx step thru with m600, if i see a used one at a good price would grab it just for friends etc

Thank you for your thoughts Vincent. I like the Flx bikes as well, but I'm good on the conventional chain driven bikes, for now anyway. Belt drive piques my interest enough to have me asking questions.

The torque sensing on the 600 you had met your expectations? -Al

 

[vincent]

Yes I was very pleased with the pas on that bike

 

[rtp]

M600s have always been CANbus, but some manage to get some custom fw from Bafang - Luna, Tosa, and at least the EU or Aus company with an M510 (new M500 variant, slightly stronger but < M600). I rented an M500 on a EU trip, and while under-powered vs my M600 X2, its overall responsiveness and behavior wasn’t bad. As the M500 and M600 are close enough to run an M600 controller in an M500 with a few wires swapped, I wouldn’t be surprised to see recent M600 firmware to be ‘adequate’ at least, vs the seeming crap show CANbus Ultras.

 

[AHicks]

M600s have always been CANbus, but some manage to get some custom fw from Bafang - Luna, Tosa, and at least the EU or Aus company with an M510 (new M500 variant, slightly stronger but < M600). I rented an M500 on a EU trip, and while under-powered vs my M600 X2, its overall responsiveness and behavior wasn’t bad. As the M500 and M600 are close enough to run an M600 controller in an M500 with a few wires swapped, I wouldn’t be surprised to see recent M600 firmware to be ‘adequate’ at least, vs the seeming crap show CANbus Ultras.

That seems to go along with everything I've read. Thank you!

 

[Kyokushin]

As the M500 and M600 are close enough to run an M600 controller in an M500 with a few wires swapped,

Yepp, i am running M500@600 it since beginning of the year. So far, so good.

 

[AHicks]

So I bit the bullet and took delivery of a new Evelo Atlas earlier this week. No intent for this to be a total review. I'll do something like that in a few weeks when I have a little more "seat time" to share. It IS a nice bike.

Meanwhile, for those on the top of the fence because of the well publicized M600 noise issues, I'd like to report that this new 600 is quiet. WAY quieter than an Ultra (I've had one of these for a couple of years now). I have no idea how they did it or whats been changed, but it's quiet. There is no objectionable noise while in operation.

Full throttle from stopped results in the motor quickly spooling up to 1000 watts. PLENTY of zip....
Controller programming/torque sensing might not as refined as the Ultra "Smooth" programming, but IMHO, it's not bad at all. Good range of power available in every PAS level (including starting down under 100 watts at low speeds), and your choice in 3, 5, or 9 levels.

Noteworthy maybe, is my example of the M600 is coupled to an Enviolo CVT. I suspect this MAY have something to do with the motor programming (the fact it seems capped at 1000 watts for instance). I'm sure Evelo is going to tell me it's a custom, but I have no way of knowing that for sure. There are plenty of companies for example, that claim "custom" for the Ultra's as well. But when you start comparing notes, it would seem they are all remarkably similar, including the "custom" tunes. Like maybe they came that way from Bafang. -Al