Bafang and NuVinci?

[Spotty dog]

I just modified my bike with a BBS 02 750w and added the harmony autoshift kit to my N360 hub, only 3 rides so far but it works very nicely. I dont intend thrashing the life out of it so will find out how durable the nuvinchi is with BBS02 torque going thru it.
One concern I had was would it shift under load because it is noticable under load the manual cable gear twist shifter becomes much harder to turn
It is however shifting really well it's made the bike very easy to ride I was able to do resonable shifts with my regular XT rapidfire gears but if u mistime killing the motor to make a shift (I ran a slack rear brake cable to allow a dab on the brake lever to cut motor power), the harsh bang and jolt felt like too much stress is being placed on the rear wheel, chain and derailluer for my liking.
I switched to the Nu vinchi N360 set up it was a big improvment, as far as I can see the harmony autoshifter works well and really shows what the N360s variable shifting is about, constant fine tuning of the gear ratio to a given road/load/speed situation without you noticing or having to think about it.
I try to ride with finesse and mecanical sympathy I have never had problems with snapping chains breaking cranks etc, I see this as a good setup for road/light trail use which is all I do thesedays, no poor chainlines, missed gears or jolting gearchanges is the way to go for me.
I think if you suffer knee problems as I do and the reason I got into e bikes it's the logical next step to run with an ultra smooth jolt free transmission system like this.
If it does fail or go bang will post my findings of how it peformed/lasted until its end.

 

[George S.]

Federal law specifically states that eBikes are not considered motor vehicles. When a trail is posted "no motor vehicles" then it's perfectly fine for eBikes. In order to exclude eBikes state law would need to specifically mention that eBikes are banned, however that's not going to happen in most cases, because federal law also demands access for eBikes on any trail made all, or in part with federal money.

Most state laws regarding eBikes are basically just a copy of the federal statutes.

Unfortunately, the Feds doing business as the Parks Service, along with the BLM, have taken the view a motor is a motor. If it has a motor, it is not allowed on bike trails or MTB trails in the BLM system, in Utah. They follow Utah state law which specifically defines an electric bike as a motor vehicle. The BLM rules are kind of idiotic, since their mountain bike trails are basically old Jeep trails, pretty well established and worn down.

The Feds have set it up so a bike manufacturer does not have to meet DOT standards for an ebike. It's classified as a Consumer Product (Consumer Product Safety Commission). Then you can say your bike is 'off road' only, if you are over the CPSC limits.

The bike trails I ride are just sort of a nice social mix. I saw several very young boys out on training wheels, but having the time of their life. There are lots of people walking who don't pay much attention to anything. I'm thinking of getting a Bluetooth bike speaker to try to make a little noise on the trail.

 

[biknut]

Unfortunately, the Feds doing business as the Parks Service, along with the BLM, have taken the view a motor is a motor. If it has a motor, it is not allowed on bike trails or MTB trails in the BLM system, in Utah. They follow Utah state law which specifically defines an electric bike as a motor vehicle. The BLM rules are kind of idiotic, since their mountain bike trails are basically old Jeep trails, pretty well established and worn down.

George, not trying to argue, but are you sure about that. I'm sure that's what you've been told, but according to this, electric assist bicycles are considered bicycles in Utah state law. Sounds to me like another case of the BLM trampling peoples rights.

41-6a-102. Definitions.

(4) (a) "Bicycle" means a wheeled vehicle:
(i) propelled by human power by feet or hands acting upon pedals or cranks;
(ii) with a seat or saddle designed for the use of the operator;
(iii) designed to be operated on the ground; and
(iv) whose wheels are not less than 14 inches in diameter.
(b) "Bicycle" includes an electric assisted bicycle.

http://le.utah.gov

 

[George S.]

Hi,

It is beyond confusing.

What they basically do is say it's a bicycle. That gets you out of insurance and inspections. But it's also a motor vehicle, and you need a drivers license. But if it is under 75#, not a motorcycle endorsement.

UTAH’S MOTORCYCLE AND SIMILAR VEHICLES LAWS

Do I need a license to ride any of these devices? Yes! According to Utah Traffic Code 53-3-202 a person must be licensed to operate any motor vehicle on public roads. The definition of a motor vehicle under UCA 41-6a-102 states: a “motor vehicle means a vehicle which is selfpropelled…” There are two exceptions to this. One is the “motor-assisted scooter” and the other is the “electric personal assistive mobility device”.

 

[biknut]

The electric bicycle law in Utah is badly written, same as a lot of states so don't feel like the Lone Ranger lol. Laws are very specific so you have to read them closely, and the more conflicts the better.

Looks like the law doesn't include pedlec. If your bike is pedlec this would be the loophole I would exploit in court. This is why pedlec was invented in the first place.


(13) "Electric assisted bicycle" means a moped:
(a) with an electric motor with a power output of not more than 1,000 watts; and
(b) which is not capable of:
(i) propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground when:

This is the next line,

(A) powered solely by the electric motor;

Powered solely by the electric motor means not pedaling, so in other words, a pedlec bike doesn't fit the definition of a electric assisted bicycle as defined under Utah law. It would have to have a throttle.

 

[LouisQ]

Simply don't shift under load. Easy peasy. One of my three BBS is on a three speed sturmey archer. I just relax, touch the brake, it stops the motor, shift and restart. The other option is a smooth shifting gutless Bosch with a wimpy battery. Smoother but whimpy.

I just modified my bike with a BBS 02 750w and added the harmony autoshift kit to my N360 hub, only 3 rides so far but it works very nicely. I dont intend thrashing the life out of it so will find out how durable the nuvinchi is with BBS02 torque going thru it.
One concern I had was would it shift under load because it is noticable under load the manual cable gear twist shifter becomes much harder to turn
It is however shifting really well it's made the bike very easy to ride I was able to do resonable shifts with my regular XT rapidfire gears but if u mistime killing the motor to make a shift (I ran a slack rear brake cable to allow a dab on the brake lever to cut motor power), the harsh bang and jolt felt like too much stress is being placed on the rear wheel, chain and derailluer for my liking.
I switched to the Nu vinchi N360 set up it was a big improvment, as far as I can see the harmony autoshifter works well and really shows what the N360s variable shifting is about, constant fine tuning of the gear ratio to a given road/load/speed situation without you noticing or having to think about it.
I try to ride with finesse and mecanical sympathy I have never had problems with snapping chains breaking cranks etc, I see this as a good setup for road/light trail use which is all I do thesedays, no poor chainlines, missed gears or jolting gearchanges is the way to go for me.
I think if you suffer knee problems as I do and the reason I got into e bikes it's the logical next step to run with an ultra smooth jolt free transmission system like this.
If it does fail or go bang will post my findings of how it peformed/lasted until its end.

 

[LouisQ]

The electric bicycle law in Utah is badly written, same as a lot of states so don't feel like the Lone Ranger lol. Laws are very specific so you have to read them closely, and the more conflicts the better.

Looks like the law doesn't include pedlec. If your bike is pedlec this would be the loophole I would exploit in court. This is why pedlec was invented in the first place.


(13) "Electric assisted bicycle" means a moped:
(a) with an electric motor with a power output of not more than 1,000 watts; and
(b) which is not capable of:
(i) propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground when:

This is the next line,

(A) powered solely by the electric motor;

Powered solely by the electric motor means not pedaling, so in other words, a pedlec bike doesn't fit the definition of a electric assisted bicycle as defined under Utah law. It would have to have a throttle.

Someone will challenge it in court and eventually win. Federal law is clear and supersedes. We went through this years back with modulating headlights. States said no federal law said yes. We ride with modulating lights. Occasionally me cop has to be shown the citation. E bike riders need to form just like mountain bikers. The big problem is going to come from those that are building the monster motors with mega Lipo packs. They will be the problem makers for mainstream riders.

 

[Spotty dog]

Simply don't shift under load. Easy peasy. One of my three BBS is on a three speed sturmey archer. I just relax, touch the brake, it stops the motor, shift and restart. The other option is a smooth shifting gutless Bosch with a wimpy battery. Smoother but whimpy.

As I said tried that method it didnt suit me, I have ridden a bosch ebike my BBS 02 with this nuvinchi auto setup feels on par with the bosch but has more power and speed.
Its just smooth jerk free uninterupted acceleration without any effort, if it proves reliable it is a credible alternative to the bosch.

 

[LouisQ]

That's interesting to read. I'm afraid I misunderstood. I find the Bafang much easier to maintain and parts and support much easier to find. 8fun has it's problems but I find it much more sustainable even with the difficulties of working with a Chinese manufacturer. They do communicate and stand behind their product. A multimeter and video camera solve most electrical problems. My biggest concern is lubrication of the crank if used and ridden a great deal in wet conditions. Sadly they provide no routine maintenance procedures and following the ups and downs on endless-sheer can be tedious. But I have he time. If I can ever help, I'm just a message away.

 

[Spotty dog]

I made up a decent size mudflap to help keep mud and water off the motor along wìth the full mudguards I use, am considering the possibility of fabricating a neoprene cover for winter or sump style guard around it in plastic to deflect spray/mud road salt.
I have a speedict mercury fitted but am not sure yet of best location for the temp sensor any thoughts on best placement of it? Am interested to monitor the motor temp under diffrent conditions, agree about lack of servicing info it's a case of trawling the net for other peoples findings.
I did pack plenty of thick grease around the locking ring side of the crank to help stop water going in hoping that helps.

 

[LouisQ]

I have a speedict mercury fitted but am not sure yet of best location for the temp sensor any thoughts on best placement of it?
I did pack plenty of thick grease around the locking ring side of the crank to help stop water going in hoping that helps.

I only run 350W and have a small pocket laser temp gauge. I monitored for a month and never saw a problem so I never went further.
I think heavy grease packing for both sides if crank, the needle bearings is critical for us year round foul weather riders. I'll be happier when I hang the Nokian studded tires and winter wheels up for the season.

 

[LouisQ]

No reason for alarm but interesting to note and I was relieved to know that while it would take some time the repair is fairly straight forward and the parts are available. I will likely own a complete set.

 

[LouisQ]

California Ebikes has all the bearings, $7 for the readily available bearing(best price I can find), $18 for the OEM(not available from any source other than Bafang) and $12.50 for a 68MMshaft, Good news to me making the fix, should there be a issue relatively inexpensive. I'll probably grab a set just because I have two and I can always sell them off. I keep a spare gear as well as a clutch.

On another front, I received the retail market release of the Gearsensor from the manufacturer in the Czech Republic. ( 9 weeks by DHL!!! ) I'll get it installed this week.. For the curious here's the updated install pdf.

Sales agent wrote, "GearSensor is already from mass production (for example we made some changes on plastic housing, we also protected the PCB inside of the GearSensor by special protection layer,...)."

 

[John L.]

I received the retail market release of the Gearsensor from the manufacturer in the Czech Republic. ( 9 weeks by DHL!!! ) I'll get it installed this week.

LouisQ: I would love to see a review of the gear sensor after you've had a chance to test it for a while.

 

[LouisQ]

Sadly It will be awhile. There is a new distributor. I've been asked to not reveal until he announces the product. I expected him to have stock and reveal by now. I know he had quite a few to test. I'll be certain to update. I've spent significant time on this device.

 

[Denman]

Over the last 3 years I've put a little over 5000 miles on Nuvinci N360 hubs, with no power assist but geared well beyond Fallbrook's recommended limit of 1.8:1; more like 1.1:1 (26/24). My typical power output is about 170 watts, but I do see bursts of up to 450 watts for about 1 minute as measured on the Thun, usually on hillclimbs. The first unit was mounted on a Catrike Expedition, total weight with rider about 250 lbs, the second unit on an HPV FS26 total weight of about 276 Lbs.

The first hub is still going strong after 3000 miles.

The second hub had an oil leak from day 1 which stopped leaking at about 1500 miles; by 2000 miles a bearing went bad. Shipped the wheel to Fallbroook and they replaced the unit re-building the wheel at no charge.

I have no doubt that the 250W rating is on the far side of conservative. While the drive is "friction" (hydroelastic is probably more accurate) I think the limiting factor is more in the freewheel pawls then the hub itself.

Someone gave me a unit that failed, same problem having an oil leak and I tore it down. There was almost no compression force between the drive cups and the swivel bearings and it appeared as though all the drive forces worked exactly as stated; the semifluid forms an adhesion film between the cup and ball surfaces. The balls were very finely burnished on the contact surfaces and were the cup surfaces. This probably occurred during break-in.

On a new N360 sitting still one can shift through about 70% of range. After break-in it only shifts through about 40% of range sitting still. I believe this is due to the burnishing.

At either end of the range the drag increases significantly, worse at the lower range.

I've been tempted to put an Befang Mid Drive on the Expedition to see hoe it works out, but have a few concerns with the Catrike. First the boom is pretty lightweight, second the Catrike is already too front heavy as hard braking can lift the rear wheel off the ground. No way I'll put it on the FS26.

 

[JoePah]

Over the last 3 years I've put a little over 5000 miles on Nuvinci N360 hubs, with no power assist but geared well beyond Fallbrook's recommended limit of 1.8:1; more like 1.1:1 (26/24). My typical power output is about 170 watts, but I do see bursts of up to 450 watts for about 1 minute as measured on the Thun, usually on hillclimbs. The first unit was mounted on a Catrike Expedition, total weight with rider about 250 lbs, the second unit on an HPV FS26 total weight of about 276 Lbs.

The first hub is still going strong after 3000 miles.

The second hub had an oil leak from day 1 which stopped leaking at about 1500 miles; by 2000 miles a bearing went bad. Shipped the wheel to Fallbroook and they replaced the unit re-building the wheel at no charge.

I have no doubt that the 250W rating is on the far side of conservative. While the drive is "friction" (hydroelastic is probably more accurate) I think the limiting factor is more in the freewheel pawls then the hub itself.

Someone gave me a unit that failed, same problem having an oil leak and I tore it down. There was almost no compression force between the drive cups and the swivel bearings and it appeared as though all the drive forces worked exactly as stated; the semifluid forms an adhesion film between the cup and ball surfaces. The balls were very finely burnished on the contact surfaces and were the cup surfaces. This probably occurred during break-in.

On a new N360 sitting still one can shift through about 70% of range. After break-in it only shifts through about 40% of range sitting still. I believe this is due to the burnishing.

At either end of the range the drag increases significantly, worse at the lower range.

I've been tempted to put an Befang Mid Drive on the Expedition to see hoe it works out, but have a few concerns with the Catrike. First the boom is pretty lightweight, second the Catrike is already too front heavy as hard braking can lift the rear wheel off the ground. No way I'll put it on the FS26.

What is the compelling reason for these internal gear sets ? More exp and less reliable. I have derailleurs from 30 years ago I still use today. It's not uncommon to get 25000 miles on a campy or ultegra gear, with regular chain replacement. If I can't fix it a new one of high quality is less than$100.

 

[Denman]

What is the compelling reason for these internal gear sets ? More exp and less reliable. I have derailleurs from 30 years ago I still use today. It's not uncommon to get 25000 miles on a campy or ultegra gear, with regular chain replacement. If I can't fix it a new one of high quality is less than$100.

Different strokes for different folks. Those words aptly apply to those who pedal, as cadence has a big influence on how efficient the "human motor" produces power. In my case the CVT option of the N360 works much better then step change derailleurs, but that's not true for everyone.

Chain crunchers work pretty well and I still use them on a few of my trikes. If I want speed I'll ride one with a chain cruncher.

 

[JoePah]

Different strokes for different folks. Those words aptly apply to those who pedal, as cadence has a big influence on how efficient the "human motor" produces power. In my case the CVT option of the N360 works much better then step change derailleurs, but that's not true for everyone.

Chain crunchers work pretty well and I still use them on a few of my trikes. If I want speed I'll ride one with a chain cruncher.

Oh ok. If your chain is crunching it may be time for a new one, and a new cassette. Lol. I just use a cadence meter to keep my heart and lungs doing most of the work.

 

[Denman]

Most of my riding is on somewhat level ground but that will change after we relocate later in the year. Been looking at various options including assist. The Befang mid drive is interesting and as I have a couple of N360's I may go that route. Won't be for a while yet as there is so much to do before the move and that's still 5 months away.