cuekwe Jones
Member
Also excellent; thanks very much for your input!!!
Bafang 750w Motor Upgrade
- Thread starter cuekwe Jones
- Start date
Also excellent; thanks very much for your input!!!
AHicks
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
What that math is not accounting for is the motor's ability to get rid of heat. Sure, you can feed it more power to get increased performance, but the question will soon become how long you can expect the motor to maintain that higher performance prior to it melting down. THAT'S how a motor's true wattage rating is determined. How many watts can it handle on a constant basis - without a meltdown.
On a temporary basis, such as climbing a short steep hill, then allowing a cool down period prior to repeating that climb, you can cram a LOT of power into a motor, and get a LOT of performance from it. Stuff like that is done frequently. You just need to be aware of the fact that motor is building heat internally pretty quickly....
Also, increasing a controllers amperage rating is only going to result in decreased range if/when you are using that additional amperage. Otherwise it's a complete non event. For instance, if you are running 10 amps through the stock Rad controller, and 10 amps through the Bolton controller, your range will be the same. From a practical standpoint, the difference will be when you point the bike up a hill. There, the increased amperage available from the Bolton controller will increase climbing performance.
On a temporary basis, such as climbing a short steep hill, then allowing a cool down period prior to repeating that climb, you can cram a LOT of power into a motor, and get a LOT of performance from it. Stuff like that is done frequently. You just need to be aware of the fact that motor is building heat internally pretty quickly....
Also, increasing a controllers amperage rating is only going to result in decreased range if/when you are using that additional amperage. Otherwise it's a complete non event. For instance, if you are running 10 amps through the stock Rad controller, and 10 amps through the Bolton controller, your range will be the same. From a practical standpoint, the difference will be when you point the bike up a hill. There, the increased amperage available from the Bolton controller will increase climbing performance.
cuekwe Jones
Member
Thanks. This sounds closer to my initial guess-timation; that the physically larger "true" 750W motor has more windings, maybe uses heavier gauge copper, and can therefore probably handle higher currents for longer periods without overheating. What I did not fully understand is how this difference relates to the rated torque of the motor itself -- i.e., independently of the controller/battery that it is connected to -- and again more specifically why the stock RPB motor and the larger upgraded motor are both spec'd for 80nm of torque. However I am just going to accept on faith that the upgraded motor will in fact deliver more torque (for whatever reason).
Thanks again for everyone's input.
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RangerDave
Member
Here is a link to an article reviewing test results of various ebike motors. It contains rated vs. actual measured specs.
ebikereviewer.com
My guess is the Rad motor is 500 watts nominal / 750 watts peak. This means it will run continuously at 500 watts for perhaps days/weeks/months without issues or at up to 750 watts continuously for maybe 15-60 minutes before it overheats and permanent damage is done. Timeframe is pure speculation on my part.
The “true” 750 watt motor may use a thicker gauge wire and have more windings yielding a more robust device. It may run continuously for days/weeks/months at 750 watts without issues and perhaps 15-60 minutes at 1000 watts before overheating and damage occurs. However, it appears the upgraded motor fits into the stock motor housing, so I worry about heat dissipation a bit at high wattages also.
Both can probably handle much higher wattage for a few seconds of instant acceleration followed by a cool down period before being subjected to such a high load again.
I personally would not go to the higher output controller without upgrading the motor also. I think that will eventually lead to an overheated and damaged stock motor if used regularly in a hilly area or to accelerate rapidly as a standard practice while biking.
Good luck in your pursuit of the perfect motor and enjoy the ride also! - RangerDave
ELECTRIC BIKE HUB MOTOR REVIEW AND COMPARISON. BAFANG, DAPU SHENGYI AND HENGTAI
The reason we conduct such test is as market is full of false claimed electric bikes and motors and sorry to say there isn’t any exception to it. Before getting into further details I need to explain some basics here.
ebikereviewer.com
My guess is the Rad motor is 500 watts nominal / 750 watts peak. This means it will run continuously at 500 watts for perhaps days/weeks/months without issues or at up to 750 watts continuously for maybe 15-60 minutes before it overheats and permanent damage is done. Timeframe is pure speculation on my part.
The “true” 750 watt motor may use a thicker gauge wire and have more windings yielding a more robust device. It may run continuously for days/weeks/months at 750 watts without issues and perhaps 15-60 minutes at 1000 watts before overheating and damage occurs. However, it appears the upgraded motor fits into the stock motor housing, so I worry about heat dissipation a bit at high wattages also.
Both can probably handle much higher wattage for a few seconds of instant acceleration followed by a cool down period before being subjected to such a high load again.
I personally would not go to the higher output controller without upgrading the motor also. I think that will eventually lead to an overheated and damaged stock motor if used regularly in a hilly area or to accelerate rapidly as a standard practice while biking.
Good luck in your pursuit of the perfect motor and enjoy the ride also! - RangerDave
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Another way of looking at running the smaller motor on the Bolton controller - IF - you manage to smoke it, who cares? You are out nothing more than if you had replaced the motor with the bigger one to begin with, other than maybe the walk home with a smoke trail (from the burnt motor) following you
cuekwe Jones
Member
Interesting. One immediate concern is whether this motor is seamlessly swapable with the existing case of the stock RPB motor? -- i.e., without having to re-lace the rear wheel spokes. A second concern is the connection to the motor controller -- i.e., whether it is "plug-and-play" or requires a custom cable. These are among the benefits of the Bolton/EBW motor -- they don't require special skills/tools/parts to install on the stock RPB bikes.
AHicks
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- USA
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Thanks for posting Tempo. I keep seeing mention of a 1000w Bafang, but you don't see much info about it or anyone using it in production bikes.
For my purposes (no interest in speeds over 20mph), the higher rpm rating is of concern here. Low speed ratings = more grunt/low speed torque. When the motor is wound for speed, the grunt is sacrificed. Kind of like a cam in a 4 stroke engine. You can have outstanding torque available at lower rpm, or you can have one that makes a bunch of HP at higher rpm. But you can't have both....
More relevant maybe, is the fact that the MAC motors are available with differently wound armatures for different applications/owner preferences. They're available with 6, 8, 10, and 12 turn windings. More turns = more low speed torque. Fewer turns = more speed. Their 12 turn motor is commonly accepted as having the most torque available anywhere - until you get into the mid drives anyway. -Al
For my purposes (no interest in speeds over 20mph), the higher rpm rating is of concern here. Low speed ratings = more grunt/low speed torque. When the motor is wound for speed, the grunt is sacrificed. Kind of like a cam in a 4 stroke engine. You can have outstanding torque available at lower rpm, or you can have one that makes a bunch of HP at higher rpm. But you can't have both....
More relevant maybe, is the fact that the MAC motors are available with differently wound armatures for different applications/owner preferences. They're available with 6, 8, 10, and 12 turn windings. More turns = more low speed torque. Fewer turns = more speed. Their 12 turn motor is commonly accepted as having the most torque available anywhere - until you get into the mid drives anyway. -Al
theemartymac
Well-Known Member
A couple of points:
Bafang over-rates their torque by a country mile. It's been independently tested on a few sites. They also seem to rate the best "possible" performance for the motor, not the actual performance with a bundled controller. The builder chooses the controller to use and the firmware profile to include, but they don't control the companies torque ratings. That's all Bafang marketing. And also why simple upgrading the motor won't necessarily give you the full potential of the new unit unless the controller and firmware are matched, as others have mentioned previously.
ebikereviewer.com
And the overvolted batteries (e.g. 52V on a 48V motor), don't necessarily give any more range. They do keep the supplied voltage above the ideal threshold (+48V) for longer, so they 'seem' to give more range at peak torque, but they drop off just as fast at the end. They also have a higher low voltage cutout, so they can't be run down as far as the lower voltage battery. That's why many builders offering the 52V battery as an upgrade option aren't really adding much if any extra range to their estimates.
And I can attest that it's easy to overheat a bafang 750 hub. I'm a big guy, and I can fault mine on any hill over 7-8% if I run too slow for more than 4-5 minutes. If I keep my speed above 10kph, I'm pretty good for any of the hills I encounter (<5min climbs). My 1000w Ultra mid-drive is the solution to the hills around here, as it's absolutely unstoppable.
Bafang over-rates their torque by a country mile. It's been independently tested on a few sites. They also seem to rate the best "possible" performance for the motor, not the actual performance with a bundled controller. The builder chooses the controller to use and the firmware profile to include, but they don't control the companies torque ratings. That's all Bafang marketing. And also why simple upgrading the motor won't necessarily give you the full potential of the new unit unless the controller and firmware are matched, as others have mentioned previously.
ELECTRIC BIKE HUB MOTOR REVIEW AND COMPARISON. BAFANG, DAPU SHENGYI AND HENGTAI
The reason we conduct such test is as market is full of false claimed electric bikes and motors and sorry to say there isn’t any exception to it. Before getting into further details I need to explain some basics here.
ebikereviewer.com
And the overvolted batteries (e.g. 52V on a 48V motor), don't necessarily give any more range. They do keep the supplied voltage above the ideal threshold (+48V) for longer, so they 'seem' to give more range at peak torque, but they drop off just as fast at the end. They also have a higher low voltage cutout, so they can't be run down as far as the lower voltage battery. That's why many builders offering the 52V battery as an upgrade option aren't really adding much if any extra range to their estimates.
And I can attest that it's easy to overheat a bafang 750 hub. I'm a big guy, and I can fault mine on any hill over 7-8% if I run too slow for more than 4-5 minutes. If I keep my speed above 10kph, I'm pretty good for any of the hills I encounter (<5min climbs). My 1000w Ultra mid-drive is the solution to the hills around here, as it's absolutely unstoppable.
theemartymac
Well-Known Member
Lol, I thinks it's just fine round town, so I don't need to upgrade now that I've learned it's shortcomings. I've kitted that one out for errands and grocery runs around town.ok? so if you think your Bafang 750W (G060 I assume?) isn't heavy duty enough, why don't you just get a G062 1000W rated motor?
You can be our guinea pig and report back
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243.46US $ 6% OFF|Hot Sale New 2020 Free Shipping Bafang 48v 1000w Rear Hub Motor With Disc Brake For Fat Bike Electric Kit - Electric Bicycle Motor - AliExpress
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
And the 1000W Ultra mid drive is 100% the right solution to my fat ass for the coastal hills! It's my work commuter and long-distance explorer. ;-)
But I do think I'll swap in a new motor and controller on the hub bike one day, but after I wear this one out and at least get a ways off the warranty period. Don't hold your breath for that DIY thread. lol
AHicks
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- Region
- USA
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
You mentioned your weight in another note somewhere. So you know, we're both in the 300 club. Just wanted to share that the mid drive Bafangs are not the only answer for guys our size when it comes to hills. The MAC 12t is rated at 110nm or so, and the GMAC's are just a little less. These are both high quality hub drives with PLENTY of power to climb about anything paved with our "plus" sizes aboard. Downside with the MAC's is that you have to build/convert a bike on your own. For some unknown reason, very few production bikes use them. Just an FYI. -Al
The cable entry is from the side , not thru the center axle. How you install that is anyone’s guess.so this G062 has different connector, so I guess there are several connectors available.
186.0US $ |Bafang 48v1000w Rm G062.1000.d Fat Bike Rear Drive Geared Hub Motor Disc Brake Freewheel For Snow Bike - Electric Bicycle Motor - AliExpress
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Nice catch on the cable exit. I hadn't noticed that. Pretty great feature actually, allows for the use of much larger wire for example, not to mention a much stronger axle. Install is easy. If you look at the closeup it's easy to see there's a spacer the axle disappears into. That would prevent the cable from becoming pinched.
It's too bad they didn't set up a torque arm arrangement like MAC did. Maybe we can look forward to something like that later.
So is the freewheel mounted on the right side and cable entry and disc on the left?
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
That's how I would do it!
Also,
Noticed something else in this link:
186.0US $ |Bafang 48v1000w Rm G062.1000.d Fat Bike Rear Drive Geared Hub Motor Disc Brake Freewheel For Snow Bike - Electric Bicycle Motor - AliExpress
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
www.aliexpress.com
See the 6T option? And the different rpm?
And here:
243.46US $ 6% OFF|Hot Sale New 2020 Free Shipping Bafang 48v 1000w Rear Hub Motor With Disc Brake For Fat Bike Electric Kit - Electric Bicycle Motor - AliExpress
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
www.aliexpress.com
Notice that they are showing cartridge and free wheel models, depending on which picture you're looking at?
Regarding MAC vs. GMAC, in my mind they're the same company. You're right though, I could confuse the heck out of somebody not familiar. Will try to be more careful of that... -Al
Just reminding that ebike hub motor review is unfortunately rubbish. Trust GrinTech of other professional sources onlyHere is a link to an article reviewing test results of various ebike motors. It contains rated vs. actual measured specs.
ELECTRIC BIKE HUB MOTOR REVIEW AND COMPARISON. BAFANG, DAPU SHENGYI AND HENGTAI
The reason we conduct such test is as market is full of false claimed electric bikes and motors and sorry to say there isn’t any exception to it. Before getting into further details I need to explain some basics here.
My guess is the Rad motor is 500 watts nominal / 750 watts peak. This means it will run continuously at 500 watts for perhaps days/weeks/months without issues or at up to 750 watts continuously for maybe 15-60 minutes before it overheats and permanent damage is done. Timeframe is pure speculation on my part.
The “true” 750 watt motor may use a thicker gauge wire and have more windings yielding a more robust device. It may run continuously for days/weeks/months at 750 watts without issues and perhaps 15-60 minutes at 1000 watts before overheating and damage occurs. However, it appears the upgraded motor fits into the stock motor housing, so I worry about heat dissipation a bit at high wattages also.
Both can probably handle much higher wattage for a few seconds of instant acceleration followed by a cool down period before being subjected to such a high load again.
I personally would not go to the higher output controller without upgrading the motor also. I think that will eventually lead to an overheated and damaged stock motor if used regularly in a hilly area or to accelerate rapidly as a standard practice while biking.
Good luck in your pursuit of the perfect motor and enjoy the ride also! - RangerDave
I know something too.
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Hi.That's how I would do it!
Also,
Noticed something else in this link:
186.0US $ |Bafang 48v1000w Rm G062.1000.d Fat Bike Rear Drive Geared Hub Motor Disc Brake Freewheel For Snow Bike - Electric Bicycle Motor - AliExpress
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
See the 6T option? And the different rpm?
And here:
243.46US $ 6% OFF|Hot Sale New 2020 Free Shipping Bafang 48v 1000w Rear Hub Motor With Disc Brake For Fat Bike Electric Kit - Electric Bicycle Motor - AliExpress
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
Notice that they are showing cartridge and free wheel models, depending on which picture you're looking at?
Regarding MAC vs. GMAC, in my mind they're the same company. You're right though, I could confuse the heck out of somebody not familiar. Will try to be more careful of that... -Al
I have G062.1000.DC (DC for freehub/cassette) and running that on 60v battery 40A controller.. Soon 45A.
RadRhino
Custom made. Ordered from DT battery. 16s5p Samsung 35E 50A BMS (Hailong G80 case). Need more for increased performance. I have now new battery ordered and in build. Outer Lexan case my own design. Specs. Samsung 40T 16s6p 150A continous output ANT bluetooth and display BMS (200A peak).
Last edited:
kmccune
Well-Known Member
If anyone paid attention ,"Citizen cycle" said the most bang for the buck was the upgraded controller, the 750watt Bafang I had was rated for 85 nm torque and it actually seemed to have it, it was very strong, the controller was an interesting thing it had 3 wires coming out of a cast aluminum body and despite the heavy bike and rider it pulled very well.
The higher voltage Batteries can cause a bit of concern when the insulation starts to degrade, you could stop worrying about having the "best and fastest" (didn't take me long to drop out of that competition) I found out if I am willing to input more a smaller motor does just fine if everything else is equal( till the controller shuts the juice off) I was amazed at the difference 3 amps made on a DD motor, it actually pulls and adds to the pedal effort now.
Strange thing I have had 3 bikes that had controller issues and am waiting for "Yamee' to send a controller replacement for the third{controller will not pass but 283 watts on max assist and motor feels very weak, sometimes I think they send defective parts on bikes and hope no one notices.
The higher voltage Batteries can cause a bit of concern when the insulation starts to degrade, you could stop worrying about having the "best and fastest" (didn't take me long to drop out of that competition) I found out if I am willing to input more a smaller motor does just fine if everything else is equal( till the controller shuts the juice off) I was amazed at the difference 3 amps made on a DD motor, it actually pulls and adds to the pedal effort now.
Strange thing I have had 3 bikes that had controller issues and am waiting for "Yamee' to send a controller replacement for the third{controller will not pass but 283 watts on max assist and motor feels very weak, sometimes I think they send defective parts on bikes and hope no one notices.
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