Apples to Apples? Bosch vs. Bafang Ultra

[TForan]

Are the Bafangs that produce more than 750 Watts technically legal to operate on public bike paths and trails in the US? If not, are they being sold under the guise that they are intended for private land use only?

Yes, off road only, I believe . No one cares in my neck of the woods. Cops ride Ebikes around here and all they say is "cool bike!". it makes me feel the Marlon Brando in the " The Wild One".

 

[McCorby]

Maximum torque 27Nm ? Ha! Don't let that get away from you !

Lol, so sad..... If you looked closer that’s for Eco mode. You can adjust each assist level (Eco, Trail, and Boost).

 

[Gionnirocket]

I would argue Bafang owners do the exact same thing......just say’n

Not me and two wrongs make a right make for a world full of...

 

[McCorby]

Yes, off road only, I believe . No one cares in my neck of the woods. Cops ride Ebikes around here and all they say is "cool bike!". it makes me feel the Marlon Brando in the " The Wild One".

I think people will care if/when more restrictions and legislation on eBikes are added (and more aggressively enforced) due to people and manufacturers refusing to abide by the current laws.... Just my opinion on that subject.

 

[TForan]

I think people will care if/when more restrictions and legislation on eBikes are added (and more aggressively enforced) due to people and manufacturers refusing to abide by the current laws.... Just my opinion on that subject.

That's why I go out of my way to be extra courteous on the MUTs. Blasting by people whether you are on a 250 watt or 1500 watt is the same thing . Rude and stupid. There's no talk of over regulating ebikes in my state and I doubt there ever will be.

 

[Johnny]

What the Chinese companies just stamping frames and selling same e-bikes to U.S. under plethora of "brand names" actually do, Johnny?

You do realize that those mainstream companies also manufacture some of their components China right ?

Oh, yes, there's a lot of design involved with the leading manufacturers creating their nicely integrated e-bikes, co-operating with motor companies to improve the motor design/tuning (Specialized/Brose, Giant/Yamaha for instance).

Not really, a bicycle frame is quite simple, compared to a car it is a joke. A frame can be designed by an individual with some cad skills ,after deciding on the geometry, without much trouble. It may take several iterations to lock in the final design making sure the frame is safe etc. but that is not rocket science. That is why I support individuals/small companies for the new ebikes like WW or Ravi's new company. They seem to have a better understanding about the needs of the customers and are trying to bring much better designs to the table compared to the big companies.

In what sense is Bafang better? Because of a lot of power? If "they customize and make the motor legal" then Bafang would loose their only edge: the power.

Well I am not trying to advocate for Bafang, but in this case the larger Bafang motor will be able to give the maximum power on a wider cadence band plus it will be less prone to overheating. It is also nice to have a motor that can be repaired in case something fails.


Bosch is nice and for most people it will work nicely but it doesn't mean that others are trash and should be avoided.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

As far as I know, Brose motors are manufactured in Berlin Germany and Bosch ones are made in Miskolc Hungary.
You mentioned Ravi. Ravi uses Bosch motors. Why?

 

[McCorby]

You do realize that those mainstream companies also manufacture some of their components China right ?

True, but where and who designs and engineers the components is key.

Not really, a bicycle frame is quite simple, compared to a car it is a joke. A frame can be designed by an individual with some cad skills ,after deciding on the geometry, without much trouble. It may take several iterations to lock in the final design making sure the frame is safe etc. but that is not rocket science. That is why I support individuals/small companies for the new ebikes like WW or Ravi's new company. They seem to have a better understanding about the needs of the customers and are trying to bring much better designs to the table compared to the big companies.

I agree that WW and Ravi are doing very nice work, but what exactly makes their designs “much better” than the big companies (Trek, Specialized, Giant)?

Well I am not trying to advocate for Bafang, but in this case the larger Bafang motor will be able to give the maximum power on a wider cadence band plus it will be less prone to overheating. It is also nice to have a motor that can be repaired in case something fails.

Can you please provide data and/or examples that supports this claim? Do you have examples where this is an issue with the big four Motors? Are you saying that a motor producing 1000 Watts of power generates less heat than a motor producing 500 Watts???

 

[Johnny]

As far as I know, Brose motors are manufactured in Berlin Germany and Bosch ones are made in Miskolc Hungary.
You mentioned Ravi. Ravi uses Bosch motors. Why?

Both Brose and Bosch have plants in China, you can search for it. I don't know which parts are coming from where and honestly I don't care, that is not the point.
What matters is QC not where the component is assembled. For a motor which was assembled in Germany, Brose motors had their fair share of belt issues in the past so just because you assemble something in Berlin doesn't mean that it is going to be reliable.

Can you please provide data and/or examples that supports this claim? Do you have examples where this is an issue with the big four Motors? Are you saying that a motor producing 1000 Watts of power generates less heat than a motor producing 500 Watts???

First of all I didn't say 1000W will generate less heat than 500W, that depends on the efficiency at which those outputs are generated.
Second the mainstream mid drives will dial back when put consistently under their peak power output for a prolonged amount of time, my Bosch cx does it.

But more importantly larger electric motors are simply more efficient due to having thicker coils, larger core size etc.. So given the same controller, Bafang ultra will be more efficient than a mainstream like Bosch, Brose etc. for the simple reason that it has a larger volume and contains more copper. Another important point is heat dissipation , more mass means better heat dissipation so an Ultra will tolerate heat better than the smaller counterparts.

Every motor have their own place, there is no point in trashing something just because you don't like it.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Johnny:
To make the things simple: Name a single respected e-MTB manufacturer using a Bafang motor.
Secondly: Due to trouble with Brose motors, Specialized greatly extended the warranty period on their motors. They replace motors if faulty. Specialized has worked with Brose to make the 2.1 motors reliable. Will Bafang do the same? Will the manufacturers using Bafang motors do the same? I doubt.

 

[TForan]

Both Brose and Bosch have plants in China, you can search for it. I don't know which parts are coming from where and honestly I don't care, that is not the point.
What matters is QC not where the component is assembled. For a motor which was assembled in Germany, Brose motors had their fair share of belt issues in the past so just because you assemble something in Berlin doesn't mean that it is going to be reliable.



First of all I didn't say 1000W will generate less heat than 500W, that depends on the efficiency at which those outputs are generated.
Second the mainstream mid drives will dial back when put consistently under their peak power output for a prolonged amount of time, my Bosch cx does it.

But more importantly larger electric motors are simply more efficient due to having thicker coils, larger core size etc.. So given the same controller, Bafang ultra will be more efficient than a mainstream like Bosch, Brose etc. for the simple reason that it has a larger volume and contains more copper. Another important point is heat dissipation , more mass means better heat dissipation so an Ultra will tolerate heat better than the smaller counterparts.

Every motor have their own place, there is no point in trashing something just because you don't like it.

Yes, they are large and in charge !

 

[McCorby]

But more importantly larger electric motors are simply more efficient due to having thicker coils, larger core size etc.. So given the same controller, Bafang ultra will be more efficient than a mainstream like Bosch, Brose etc. for the simple reason that it has a larger volume and contains more copper. Another important point is heat dissipation , more mass means better heat dissipation so an Ultra will tolerate heat better than the smaller counterparts.

Again, please show me data that supports these claims! Or is this just conjecture on your part?

 

[Gionnirocket]

 

[Johnny]

Again, please show me data that supports these claims! Or is this just conjecture on your part?

What conjecture are you talking about? This is quite a fundamental concept in Electromagnetics and practice follows theory very precisely in this field.

I don't know what your background is but I actually did take electromagnetics class during my bs years that is why I am familiar with these concepts.

I am not going into details on flux density here, if you are curious and genuinely want to learn google should be a good place to start.

 

[ElevenAD]

True, but where and who designs and engineers the components is key.


I agree that WW and Ravi are doing very nice work, but what exactly makes their designs “much better” than the big companies (Trek, Specialized, Giant)?

the motor they chose is key,its very fast and powerful and tough

 

[Stefan Mikes]

the motor they chose is key,its very fast and powerful and tough

Ravi uses Bosch motors. So?

 

[Johnny]

Johnny:
To make the things simple: Name a single respected e-MTB manufacturer using a Bafang motor.

Stefan I don't see your point here. Low powered mainstream motors are good for mountain biking hence these bike manufacturers use them. These motors are very good allrounders.

This doesn't mean that Bafang is not good, not everyone is living in Europe and people have different needs. Bafang ultra is addressing some of these needs.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Bafang ultra is addressing some of these needs.

Which is illegal in the U.S., too. I know many people think "if they don't catch me, no harm done" but come on...

 

[Gionnirocket]

Johnny:
To make the things simple: Name a single respected e-MTB manufacturer using a Bafang motor.
Secondly: Due to trouble with Brose motors, Specialized greatly extended the warranty period on their motors. They replace motors if faulty. Specialized has worked with Brose to make the 2.1 motors reliable. Will Bafang do the same? Will the manufacturers using Bafang motors do the same? I doubt.

This is very true.
But understand that this is no great feat of good will. You paid for this service in advance.
A comparably equipped bike with an Ultra motor can have a complete motor failure and you could be stuck with the cost of a replacement and it will still be less expensive.
Feel free to pick your level of risk.

 

[Johnny]

Which is illegal in the U.S., too. I know many people think "if they don't catch me, no harm done" but come on...

Not when it is limited to 750w.