Anyone Else Eliminate non throttle bikes? low top end?

[Jerry LM]

While looking at the reviews, and articles and so on about e bikes because I am close to purchasing one I don't even continue to look at the ones that are class 1 only and under a 500W and 48 volt power supply. I can't see the sense in spending a ton of money on a bike and not have the option to use throttle only and some of the bikes have really low torque ratings.
Even if you don't always need it to me it's like buying a Challenger with a v6, huh? Since they have 750W with throttle and 28 mph why settle for a 350W with no throttle and low hill climbing ability. After looking now for a couple of months it seems the prices are all pretty comparable so may as well go for the Gusto! Anyone else feel this way or am I just a power monger. Just can't get my mind around 3/5k for a wimpy bike. A bike cutting out and in because I have reached the 20 mph wall would really be aggravating to me.

 

[indianajo]

I don't like the lowest Pedal assist setting on my kit, it is too fast for some pavements. So I use throttle a lot, mostly to go slowly. I also ride off road on my driveway, again where the right speed is 3 mph. My PAS pulls me up to 11 mph rapidly.
I've got steep hills although short in my neighborhood, so I've found 500 W is necessary. the slower I go the more wattage it uses on a steep hill, though. It can go 750 w at 4 mph on a 15% grade. More like 350 at 8 mph. I carry 50 lb supplies though, you may be a bike plus cell phone only rider.
I don't want to actually go 25 mph often, although I do go 35 mph downhill on those aforementioned grades. Having the controller nanny me would be annoying. fortunately in kits anything goes, the display says I'm going 55 KPH (not!)
the authorities are sweating about pizza delivery guys going 35 mph on sidewalks in huge cities, I think is behind the class 1 2 3 argument. People should just behave, but UK already had a hit and run e-biker last week. In intense pedestrian zones, like our cross Ohio walk/bike bridge, I go `12 if noone is around, 6 around responsible adults and 3 around flyaway toddlers and cellphone blind men. I've seen tandem pedal powered couples blasting through walk groups at 25 mph, no sense in my opinion.
Have fun shopping.

 

[AHicks]

Jerry, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. It's about bikes with several easily adjustable PAS levels in addition to a throttle (thumb for me, but many are OK with a twist throttle). I want some hill climbing power as well. I would not consider a DD below 1000w, or a gear drive below 650-750, and 48v would be the voltage for me. Certainly nothing lower.

Where we may differ is the 20mph deal. I'm fine with a bike that's set to limit assistance beyond that point (or maybe at 24mph, whatever), but that's how my bikes are used. I LIKE the ability to remain legal on sidewalks and bike trails with type 2 limitations. That's where I want to ride. As a retiree, I have no need to commute long distances. That does not mean I can't have good performance though. The bike I ride is a 1500w direct drive. It's just set up with a 20mph (or so) top limit. Power (performance) to that 20 somethng mph point is pretty "spirited". And oh, yes, the 1500w hub is capable of well over legal speed limits if it were not governed.

If my usage were different, where I was looking for more performance to be used off road, I would be looking for a whole different style bike. I would likely pick up a regular gas powered dirt bike. That's me though. I know there's a lot of interest in seeing just what can be done with an electric, it's just that kind of "mod" activity isn't appealing for me - or I'm spoiled by what I know a 4 stroke dirt bike can do. Take your pick... -Al

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I think it depends on what you are after in an e-bike.

For myself, I find the sweet spot is a bike that can comfortably go at 12-18 mph, any faster than that and you are using your precious electrons to push wind. I also prefer range over speed. If I can cover 60-70 miles in 4-5 hours I am pretty happy. Very few speed pedelecs have that kind of range at speed unless you carry a bunch of extra batteries.

My strong preference is for gravel rides. Riding at 25mph on most gravel for several hours is like putting my bike, my beer, and my personal hide in a giant paint shaker for those several hours. Which isn't particularly fun.

 

[rich c]

Throttles are a personal thing. Some people are incredibly passionate about having one, some have a medical need to have one, and some see no sense to it. Ride a few eBikes and see what you think. You certainly won't get a consensus here.

 

[rannyv]

Before writing off "underpowered", non-throttle bikes, ride a bunch of them to see how they actually feel when riding them. High power throttle equipped bikes tend to be more crude and heavy. Sticky to your car analogy, like a Dodge with a hemi compared to a Porsche 911. Both are fun, but in different ways. If you were never a conventional cyclist, maybe you would be better served by one of these high powered, heavy throttle equipped bikes. But a nice, light class 3 bike should have plenty of power and handle more like a real bike. I speak from the experience of having a BBS-HD 52V bike and replacing it with the type 3 speed pedelec. After riding the latter, the BBS-HD bike felt sluggish off the line unless lots of throttle were added, clumsy and frankly, dangerously fast. After riding the light weight class 3, I have no regrets saying goodbye to the BBS-HD.

 

[ebikemom]

In answer to your question, yes, I did. My LBS only had Class 1 bikes. Decided I wanted a Class 2. No regrets.

 

[rich c]

I agree with rannyv, numbers don't tell the whole story. You have torque sensing, shift detection, and better information on the display. Then the great feel of hydraulic brakes on big rotors. It's your choose to eliminate them if you like, but if I read your post correctly, you don't own any eBikes yet? Do yourself a favor and ride a high end eBike, just for the heck of it. I didn't think anyone should spend more than $700 since you could get a class 2 Sondors at your door for that in 2015, and an eBike was an eBike, right? I was converted to the high end and own 2 of them now!

 

[AHicks]

Throttles are a personal thing. Some people are incredibly passionate about having one, some have a medical need to have one, and some see no sense to it. Ride a few eBikes and see what you think. You certainly won't get a consensus here.

That's it in a nutshell. You can buy exactly what you need if you define your mission well enough. Most won't take the trouble though, preferring instead to have something a little more versatile, potentially fulfilling many different mission statements.

 

[MadManMark]

As primarily a commuter on urban roads I find throttle really useful for getting moving quickly from stationary out of busy 4-way stops, starts from bottom of hills, etc. I tend to establish full lane position at stops (don't stay by curb) and so am very conscious of pulling out slowly from them, the throttle is a godsend to resolve that, my second favorite improvement from switching from completely human pedal commutes, after hill climbing power. But having said that, if I am already moving (pedaling) I really don't use the throttle at all, if I need a boost I just increase the PAS. Note I have a Radcity (750w/48v) if that's relevant.

 

[rannyv]

Agree that a throttle can come in handy for a burst of extra speed such as when a light will be turning green or getting out ahead of a pack of conventional cyclists or cars at an intersection, but the motor systems I like don't come with throttles. They tend to be on the less costly bikes. If I could add a throttle to my favorite bike, I would, but I don't miss its absence.

As mentioned in my previous response, for a while I was switching back-and-forth between my 1000 Watt BBS-HD and the Bosch powered class C bike. While the Bosch bike can't peel away from the lights with a generous addition of throttle or zoom along at 30+ MPH, it (Bosch class 3 bike) did feel more responsive and natural because I didn't have to remember to add throttle power when taking off and it was in no way sluggish. Back-to-back, I found the Bosch system to be an all around more pleasing experience.

On the subject of purpose built e-bikes, I'll say this again - I've built several up myself and conventional pedal powered bikes, not being designed for the power of an electric motor are lacking some important things, many of which add to the safety of the bike. They tend not to be well balanced, the frames and brakes weren't designed for the additional power. And decent bikes are getting so cheap, a purpose built bike can be had for the price of many kit builds. See Juiced Rider and the like.

 

[Riversurf]

While looking at the reviews, and articles and so on about e bikes because I am close to purchasing one I don't even continue to look at the ones that are class 1 only and under a 500W and 48 volt power supply. I can't see the sense in spending a ton of money on a bike and not have the option to use throttle only and some of the bikes have really low torque ratings.
Even if you don't always need it to me it's like buying a Challenger with a v6, huh? Since they have 750W with throttle and 28 mph why settle for a 350W with no throttle and low hill climbing ability. After looking now for a couple of months it seems the prices are all pretty comparable so may as well go for the Gusto! Anyone else feel this way or am I just a power monger. Just can't get my mind around 3/5k for a wimpy bike. A bike cutting out and in because I have reached the 20 mph wall would really be aggravating to me.

Wimpy bikes? You're feelings on power are clear, but not everyone shares them. I'm perfectly happy with my 20 mph non-throttle "wimpy" pedelec. I don't want a throttle, because to me that turns the vehicle into a scooter. Other riders want throttles for a variety of reasons.

 

[mrgold35]

Getting a throttle was like picking the right tool for the job and using it properly. Why get a SUV when a sedan is the 99% solution for your lifestyle.

I originally went with the $1500 2016 Radrover class II geared hub 750w/80 Nm/tq just for exercise and fun rides. It was getting too hard to ride my pedal bike when things were getting too close to my performance envelop (too hot, too cold, too windy, too hilly, too far, etc...). Going with an ebike pretty much extended my riding time to almost 24/7/365 with the exception of extreme rain/snow. I find the throttle really come in handy for trail riding for short steep inclines, deep sandy spots, faster acceleration with less shifting, and narrow trails when it is difficult to pedal. There were times I had to crouch down on the down-tube to avoid overhead branches and pull my arms in to squeeze through narrow single track trails. Throttle came in handy compared to dismounting and pushing the ebike.

What I like about the Rad Power bikes are the provide the full 750w throttle power at any PAS level from 0-5. I use my throttle the same way as other above. I also needed my throttle to get home a few times after:
- I lost a pedal crank when the bolt fell off at 5:30am work commuting (2 miles from home)
- wrecked while single track riding and broke 3 of 4 bolt securing the handlebars and really sore shoulder (+4 miles from home)
- used throttle to help push my ebike up a flight of stairs to my 2nd floor office when the work elevators were out
- used the throttle up steep inclines or over obstacles I couldn't ride over

You also have the option to adjust the motor cut-off up to 24.8 mph (40 km/h) if you need a touch more speed. I have my motor cut-off set to 22 mph for PAS and throttle.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Personally I rarely found a throttle to be particularly useful.

One thing I would like to see, though, is a software change on class I e-bikes where the pedal assist system gives full power when the speed is below 3-4 mph. That would give you a nice big boost when starting off but wouldn't drain your battery if you were grinding up a steep hill. Another option would be a red button on the controls that would give you full power for 20-30 seconds after you tapped it.

 

[erider_61]

I come from a motorcycle background so the twist throttle seems to be a natural option for me. Not worried about speed really as this will be my first e bike and my intended use is a short travel. Will be mainly used for a shopping trip 3 times a week which is 6km from home which I am now doing on a MTB.. Only one real hill, a train overpass. I like the idea of being able to tour further around town if I wish with pedal assist and having the throttle option if I get tired. Pretty much narrowed it down to the Ariel Rider W class 48V-75Nm/tq. Not sure to get it in the 500W or 750W for $200 more. The 500W version doesn't have the bosses for installing a rear rack so that was going to be an issue. But today I discovered Axiom racks that look like they attach to seat post & rear frame drop outs and also accommodate the rear brake disc. Going to have a look at the Radrovers as well as I see a lot of people mentioning them. But I definitely love the look of the vintage cruiser styling and not as many options out there.

 

[chriskmee]

250W or 350W on a mid drive is plenty of power, but that would be under powered for a hub motor. My bike has a Bosch performance speed, which is either 250W or 350W, can't remember which. In turbo mode I can just lightly move my legs and get up to 20+mph, so I really don't see the need for a throttle. In lower gears its absolutely amazing at climbing hills


Before you completely disregard smaller motors, give some a ride at your local bike shop. A smaller motor that can use your gears for a mechanical advantage (a mid drive) can give you more than enough assistance.

 

[Jerry LM]

Well it looks like I am not the only one on the bus at least. I have made a chart of all the models I review to make a decision based on the ability of the drive train, throttle, warranty, size etc.
At 120 NM and 750 W Mid Drive 48V battery and throttle access at any speed with a 380 NuVinci trans it looks like Evelo has a great deal going for it. All the other bikes I chart are 30 to 50% lower rating on NM torque and after watching the review where Court flies up a hill with no PA whatsoever I think it must be a powerhouse bike. Only goes up to 25 mph but that's acceptable. Amazing the difference in these bikes brand to brand, and I have really appreciated Court's reviews as they have really educated me on the subject. I am still riding my std. Trek bike for now but have whittled it down to where I am ready to make a purchase. The Delta X seems a real urban challenger and the Aurora a good bet as well. I like the hydraulic brakes as well and a 4 yr. warranty with pro rated battery replacement. I am still looking daily but so far can't find another that offers all this at my price limit which is 4500.
Thanks for all the input, I know myself and I know I wouldn't be happy with a less performing bike, and I don't want to get into the trading and selling thing hunting for one. Would rather get a top performer to start with and stick with it....

 

[chriskmee]

Just be aware that you are probably looking at something classed as a moped/motorcycle with the specs you are looking at. That means it may need to be licensed, registered, insured, and driven on the road only, no bike paths or bike lanes.

I think chances are pretty low that you get caught, but if you do get caught, driving a non insured, non registered "motorcycle" on a bike path might get you in some trouble.

 

[MadManMark]

Personally I rarely found a throttle to be particularly useful.

One thing I would like to see, though, is a software change on class I e-bikes where the pedal assist system gives full power when the speed is below 3-4 mph. That would give you a nice big boost when starting off but wouldn't drain your battery if you were grinding up a steep hill. Another option would be a red button on the controls that would give you full power for 20-30 seconds after you tapped it.

I don't want FULL power ALL the time when I am going < 3mph. Indeed, wouldn't your suggestion actually make it impossible to go that slow? Regarding your other option, having full powered propulsion for thirty seconds without a way to limit is ... well, it's downright dangerous!

No offense but both of these alternatives are much, much worse than a throttle. And your suggetion of them frankly belies your original comment that you don't find a throttle useful. You literally said in the very next sentence that you would like that ability to get a "a nice big boost when starting off" -- that's exactly what a throttle lets you do!

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Class 1's (no throttles) are very poor seller's around here in the Chicago area. This despite even local jurisdiction's declaring Class 1 category for their park district trails that allow regular bikes. Majority of mid drives from the OEMS do not have throttles. The mid drive OEM's are largely ignoring this, and building Class 1's anyway, despite what the market is demanding (at least in this area). They cite : class 1 laws, and wanting the 'lowest common denominator.' Funny how those laws aren't being made by people actually buying ebikes, but rather political's deciding what the population should or should not be allowed to have. Under use of throttle, the acceleration is much slower than someone can typically pedal, while using assist. They are capped at 20 Mph using throttle. (by law). For the majority of people, use of the throttle is less than pedal assist, but as mentioned above it can be a useful 'tool' for safety and that unique situation. I have had customer's who otherwise could not ride a regular bike, actually use the throttle to get up to speed, and keep their balance, and then begin pedaling. In otherwords, they could not start the bike on their own, while pedaling, so they can never get to feel the 'balance' and so they just stopped trying to ride a bike. Remember when you were little, and were just starting out ? Well their are a lot of adults that are like that today, who haven't ridden for years, or may have some disability.
Thankfully there are very nice mid drive conversions that do offer throttles. So clearly, a mid drive CAN be built with a throttle. the OEM's who market their mid drives as throttle only, are just choosing not to offer them. Its not a technical obstacle.