Another new TQ motor: hpr40

[Rás Cnoic]

I am not familiar with Fazua Ride 60, but from you description it sounds like it has different settings and how it manages assist. On my last ride I watched the power meter and most of the time I was putting in 150W, the motor contributed 0W-10% of the time, 30W-50% of the time, 60W-30% of the time, and 150W-10% of the time. 42miles, 3500 elevation gain and the battery had ~55% charge remaining when I got home. I was riding with my wife who has the same BMC as me an her battery had 72% charge remaining. She is lighter and stronger than me so road most of the ride in eco-30W assist.

Sadly Porsche the owners of Fazua have just closed down the company laying off the entire staff it seems having bought Fazua a couple of years ago.

Porsche shuts down e-bike motor brand Fazua as car brand’s e-bike subsidiary closed and 500 jobs cut | electric bike reviews, buying advice and news - ebiketips

Porsche has revealed that it is shutting down its e-bike subsidiary Porsche eBike Performance GmbH, a move that will also see e-bike motor brand Fazua closed.The German sports car brand launched its e-bike subsidiary in 2022, the same year it acquired Fazua, in a bid to develop and market...

road.cc

 

[Blackvipergts]

I am not familiar with Fazua Ride 60, but from you description it sounds like it has different settings and how it manages assist. On my last ride I watched the power meter and most of the time I was putting in 150W, the motor contributed 0W-10% of the time, 30W-50% of the time, 60W-30% of the time, and 150W-10% of the time. 42miles, 3500 elevation gain and the battery had ~55% charge remaining when I got home. I was riding with my wife who has the same BMC as me an her battery had 72% charge remaining. She is lighter and stronger than me so road most of the ride in eco-30W assist.

Thank a lot .It's confirming my assumption / estimation fpr the 290w battery .Unfortunately for the time being is impossible here to find a test bike [ Scott/Bmc/Ridley] so far we can only simulate and/or extrapolate data

 

[Blackvipergts]

Sadly Porsche the owners of Fazua have just closed down the company laying off the entire staff it seems having bought Fazua a couple of years ago.

Porsche shuts down e-bike motor brand Fazua as car brand’s e-bike subsidiary closed and 500 jobs cut | electric bike reviews, buying advice and news - ebiketips

Porsche has revealed that it is shutting down its e-bike subsidiary Porsche eBike Performance GmbH, a move that will also see e-bike motor brand Fazua closed.The German sports car brand launched its e-bike subsidiary in 2022, the same year it acquired Fazua, in a bid to develop and market...

road.cc

Indeed it has been a shocking news and globally a very sad news for all of us riding a FazuaRide60...On other hand Porsche's Financial Result are so bad that no core business is out of scope

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Had my BMC for a couple weeks and been playing around with motor settings. What seems to be working for my riding style and location follows. At these settings I can get +60miles of range with 3000-4000ft of climbing. Also suggest that TQ40 would be plenty for my type of riding. Curious to hear what others are using...

Mode	Power Cap	Support %	Pedal Response	Rationale
Eco	30 W	30%	Low	Offset bike weight/tire penalty while preserving analog feel and range
Mid	60 W	60%	Low / Medium	“10 years younger” mode
High	150 W	100%	Medium	Short-term boost for steep climbs, wind, or fatigue

It really depends on the rider and too many other factors. Here's the stat page of a gravel rally organiser who rode a Raymon Norza Pro (a carbon Bosch SX gravel bike).

63 miles, 5,082 ft elevation gain, with some 14% grade climbs, an area consisting only of climbs and descents. He rode in a Tour+ assistance, which is 45 Nm max and 300 W motor mechanical assistance max. Tour+ is a dynamic mode, which automatically switches between ECO and TURBO as needed. His e-bike (rented for tests by Bosch E-Bike to him) had a 400 Wh battery, of which he used 94% for that ride. The man is a 40-yo able-bodied rider. Given the e-bike had an EU 25km/h restrictor, I assume he rode all descents and flats without any assistance.

E-bike weight 32.4 lb.

 

[stompandgo]

Pinarello Nytro E Allroad, 32 pounds, HPR50. I'm still tuning.

Eco: 120w/71%
Mid: 200w/111%
High: 300w/200%

I ride about 40% Off, 60% Eco, with an occasional bump to Mid. I have never used High except for experimentation. As I get fitter, I expect to drop the Eco assist below 100.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Pinarello Nytro E Allroad, 32 pounds, HPR50. I'm still tuning.

Eco: 120w/71%
Mid: 200w/111%
High: 300w/200%

What do these numbers refer to in HPR motors?

I ride about 40% Off, 60% Eco, with an occasional bump to Mid.

Interesting to see how other people set and use their own assist modes — and how those choices evolve over time. I had a phase like that and could well again.

I have never used High except for experimentation.

You said once that you like to go fast. So do I at times. Took me a while to figure out that that's what TURBO (my High) is for.

I resort to TURBO in certain traffic situations I want to squirt through or leave behind ASAP. Also handy on the steepest (15-16%) of the 1-block ramps so common around here.

Otherwise, rarely feel a need for TURBO. Not that I'm a strong rider. I'm not. Just that I can generally get all the speed I want from my 240W, 35 Nm, 38 lb Vado SL 1 in OFF, ECO, or SPORT. Increasingly using SPORT on fitness segments, as it somehow drags more effort out of me.

HOWEVER, suddenly thinking, "Boy, this ride is fun!" has turned out to be a clue that I forgot to back off from TURBO. And who's making the rules here, anyway?

Now I treat myself to TURBO segments just for the fun of it, battery permitting.

 

[stompandgo]

What do these numbers refer to in HPR motors?

The first number is maximum power in that mode. In Eco, the maximum power is detuned from 300w to 120w.
The second number is the motor assist percentage. At 71%, the rider needs to be putting out about 85w to get the full 120w out of the motor. Total watts would be 191w. Anything over that is 100% rider power.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

The first number is maximum power in that mode. In Eco, the maximum power is detuned from 300w to 120w.
The second number is the motor assist percentage. At 71%, the rider needs to be putting out about 85w to get the full 120w out of the motor. Total watts would be 191w. Anything over that is 100% rider power.

Thanks! So writing an HPR assist mode as A/B, A = the mode's max (presumably mechanical) motor power in watts. B specifies the saturation rider power Prs as a percentage of A. Hence, Prs = A B /100 is the rider power Pr needed to saturate motor power Pm at A.

I like that. The current mode's Prs can be a handy thing to know in the saddle.

Now write a Specialized assist mode as E/M, where E and M are both percentages from 0 to 100. Letting Px = the bike's max possible mechanical motor power, your A ≈ Px M / 100. At a given cadence, B is proportional to the slope of the ramp up to A in the motor vs. rider power curve.

Roughly, higher E means a lower (easier) Prs. But there's no simple way to predict Prs in a given mode. So no simple relationship between my E and your A or B.

 

[stompandgo]

Makes sense. However, the relationship between how hard a rider pedals, how much the motor assists, and the maximum assist power is a fundamental equation in all e-bikes, no matter how it is measured.

 

[apctjb]

So writing an HPR assist mode as A/B, A = the mode's max (presumably mechanical) motor power in watts. B specifies the saturation rider power Prs as a percentage of A. Hence, Prs = A B /100 is the rider power Pr needed to saturate motor power Pm at A.

I like that. The current mode's Prs can be a handy thing to know in the saddle.

Now write a Specialized assist mode as E/M, where E and M are both percentages from 0 to 100. Letting Px = the bike's max possible mechanical motor power, your A ≈ Px M / 100. At a given cadence, B is proportional to the slope of the ramp up to A in the motor vs. rider power curve.

Roughly, higher E means a lower (easier) Prs. But there's no simple way to predict Prs in a given mode. So no simple relationship between my E and your A or B.

I am new to this but from my observations so far it appears TQ motor power is somewhat linear until the max motor watts are hit for each mode. Rider power is the input variable while riding.

Pm = min(A, B·Pr)

where:

• A = max motor power cap
• B = support %
• Pr = rider power
• Pm = motor power

That said, I suspect more happening behind the scenes than this simplified steady-state model — cadence, motor RPM, transient response, smoothing, efficiency curves, thermal limits, etc. The following illustrates the relationship for 3 settings.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Makes sense. However, the relationship between how hard a rider pedals, how much the motor assists, and the maximum assist power is a fundamental equation in all e-bikes, no matter how it is measured.

I'd like to see the data behind that statement.

If you plot empirical mechanical motor power Pm vs. rider power Pr on a Specialized Vado SL 2 mid-drive, you get a ramp and flat geometry with a ramp of constant slope. You see this consistently in the excellent field work by @mcdenny in steady-state riding.

This screenshot shows representative SL 2 data from the post linked above. Official Specialized documents imply that all of its mid-drives have this Pm-Pr plot geometry.

And @apctjb above has reason to believe that his TQ's Pm-Pr plot has this geometry as well, though we haven't seen his data.

I'm prepared to believe that this Pm-Pr plot geometry is a common in mid-drives. But not prepared to say that it's universal.

Complicating all this is the reality that we have no idea how manufacturers who use these ramp-flat relationships choose their actual ramp slopes and flat heights.

For example, there's no simple relationship between Specialized's slope and height choices and the E/M settings @mcdenny tested on his SL 2. His data shows a clear cadence dependence in the ramp slope that we have yet to understand.

 

[apctjb]

And @apctjb above has reason to believe that his TQ's Pm-Pr plot has this geometry as well, though we haven't seen his data.

No recorded data, just observation of power while riding which is imprecise at best. That said it appears to be a somewhat linear relationship between rider power and motor power until max motor power setting is reached.

 

[mschwett]

i test rode a fastlane today. very tempting !!! here's a summary of my quandary on the pros and cons of this bike and my current e-road bike.

now i have a major dilemna!

i still have my s-works aethos, which fits me like a glove and rides like air, but i can't ride it on any interesting rides any more due to the absolute need to keep my HR <110 and average 90-95. OK for flats, not for hills. so i mostly ride my scott addict eRide, which is a nice bike, but not perfect. today i test rode the newish scott fastlane, and man, it is nice. here are the pros and cons. help me decide!

addict eRide Pros

• i already have it. it's set up nicely.
• it's a hub drive, so it uses a totally standard crank and i have a matching pair of 12 speed dura ace cranks with matching 4iiii dual sided power meters. obviously i use the same HRM, same head unit (phone), so i can jump back and forth between the aethos and this one with completely comparable metrics/stats, and i really like the 4iiii units
• it really looks just like a road bike. the bottom bracket area is totally standard, standard cranks, small downtube, close inspection reveals that the rear hub is bigger than you'd expect but still much smaller than the cassette

addict eRide Cons

• the electronics are getting fritzy, and it's out of warranty. about one in every 10 or so motor engagements (i ride motor off until it gets steep enough to need it, then turn it on) the motor doesn't come on, it flashes red, then turns off after a few tries it works.
• the bottom bracket creaks and pings in a very annoying way sometimes
• the motor is not silent. not horrible, but i can hear it, it harshes my smooth buzz and flow, and i'm sure other riders can hear it too
• it's a hub drive, so it's not super efficient going up very steep hills, where the wheel (and thus motor) speed drops
• the control to change modes is on the top tube, not the best, especially when it's not working right

scott fastlane pros

• slightly lighter - 22lb vs 24lb.
• the motor is damn near silent. i rode it at full power at 25mph on a flat and at 10mph up a 10% hill, and while it didn't sound quite like a normal bike, there was nothing you'd identify as "that's a motor" sound
• since it's a mid-drive, motor speed matches rider cadence and it's able to deliver full power going up a hill slowly, if needed. within reason. it's a low power bike (200w max) but that's perfect, i never need that kind of assist. more like 100.
• presumably it would work perfectly and be under warranty AND NEW BIKE DAY
• the drive unit is integrated into the di2 buttons on the hoods, so nice
• there's no top tube display or control, it's got some tiny lights in the bar ends. super tight and clean.
• this doesn't really matter but it's a class 3 bike, addict is class 1 so if i wanted to really haul ass (on a commute type ride maybe) there's assist between 20 and 28mph.

scott fastlane cons

• biggest con : since it's a mid drive, it doesn't use standard cranks. the 2x front ring and cranks are not shimano standard, and there are no power meter arms available. power is really important to me, so i'd have to switch to power pedals, and i ride speedplay. their power pedals are OK but not amazing.
• i don't love the color that the dura ace model comes with - it's a glossy, metallic silver, pretty color but too bling for me
• the mid drive drive unit is very small, but not so small that the bottom bracket doesn't look a bit e-bike. it's very sculpted and has a cut-off profile on the non drive side. the addict eRide is stealthier and more beautiful, IMO
• the zipp 353 NSW wheels have that crazy scalloped pattern, which seems to generate a sort of harmonic "whoosh" sound when riding... they're very high end wheels but i don't love the look. the shop said they'd swap them for something i like with a 1k credit, so not a huge deal
• $10k plus outlay, then the hassle of getting my addict completely fixed and sold. this is definitely NOT an N+1 situation

it's a tough call! one approach is perhaps to get whatever gremlins the addict eRide has worked out, and then decide, since i'd have to do that anyway to sell it.

 

[Calcoaster]

i test rode a fastlane today. very tempting !!! here's a summary of my quandary on the pros and cons of this bike and my current e-road bike.

now i have a major dilemna!

i still have my s-works aethos, which fits me like a glove and rides like air, but i can't ride it on any interesting rides any more due to the absolute need to keep my HR <110 and average 90-95. OK for flats, not for hills. so i mostly ride my scott addict eRide, which is a nice bike, but not perfect. today i test rode the newish scott fastlane, and man, it is nice. here are the pros and cons. help me decide!

addict eRide Pros

• i already have it. it's set up nicely.
• it's a hub drive, so it uses a totally standard crank and i have a matching pair of 12 speed dura ace cranks with matching 4iiii dual sided power meters. obviously i use the same HRM, same head unit (phone), so i can jump back and forth between the aethos and this one with completely comparable metrics/stats, and i really like the 4iiii units
• it really looks just like a road bike. the bottom bracket area is totally standard, standard cranks, small downtube, close inspection reveals that the rear hub is bigger than you'd expect but still much smaller than the cassette

addict eRide Cons

• the electronics are getting fritzy, and it's out of warranty. about one in every 10 or so motor engagements (i ride motor off until it gets steep enough to need it, then turn it on) the motor doesn't come on, it flashes red, then turns off after a few tries it works.
• the bottom bracket creaks and pings in a very annoying way sometimes
• the motor is not silent. not horrible, but i can hear it, it harshes my smooth buzz and flow, and i'm sure other riders can hear it too
• it's a hub drive, so it's not super efficient going up very steep hills, where the wheel (and thus motor) speed drops
• the control to change modes is on the top tube, not the best, especially when it's not working right

scott fastlane pros

• slightly lighter - 22lb vs 24lb.
• the motor is damn near silent. i rode it at full power at 25mph on a flat and at 10mph up a 10% hill, and while it didn't sound quite like a normal bike, there was nothing you'd identify as "that's a motor" sound
• since it's a mid-drive, motor speed matches rider cadence and it's able to deliver full power going up a hill slowly, if needed. within reason. it's a low power bike (200w max) but that's perfect, i never need that kind of assist. more like 100.
• presumably it would work perfectly and be under warranty AND NEW BIKE DAY
• the drive unit is integrated into the di2 buttons on the hoods, so nice
• there's no top tube display or control, it's got some tiny lights in the bar ends. super tight and clean.
• this doesn't really matter but it's a class 3 bike, addict is class 1 so if i wanted to really haul ass (on a commute type ride maybe) there's assist between 20 and 28mph.

scott fastlane cons

• biggest con : since it's a mid drive, it doesn't use standard cranks. the 2x front ring and cranks are not shimano standard, and there are no power meter arms available. power is really important to me, so i'd have to switch to power pedals, and i ride speedplay. their power pedals are OK but not amazing.
• i don't love the color that the dura ace model comes with - it's a glossy, metallic silver, pretty color but too bling for me
• the mid drive drive unit is very small, but not so small that the bottom bracket doesn't look a bit e-bike. it's very sculpted and has a cut-off profile on the non drive side. the addict eRide is stealthier and more beautiful, IMO
• the zipp 353 NSW wheels have that crazy scalloped pattern, which seems to generate a sort of harmonic "whoosh" sound when riding... they're very high end wheels but i don't love the look. the shop said they'd swap them for something i like with a 1k credit, so not a huge deal
• $10k plus outlay, then the hassle of getting my addict completely fixed and sold. this is definitely NOT an N+1 situation

View attachment 210496

it's a tough call! one approach is perhaps to get whatever gremlins the addict eRide has worked out, and then decide, since i'd have to do that anyway to sell it.

You are the right guy to review the fastlane, given your experience with e-bikes and high end non motor bikes! It sounds like a great bike, especially if the geometry agrees with you. It seems to be very similar to your hub drive Scott so that question is easily answered.

If you can’t safely ride the athos then why not sell both that and the Scott and get the one you really want? You only live once and this moment is all that really counts!

 

[mschwett]

You are the right guy to review the fastlane, given your experience with e-bikes and high end non motor bikes! It sounds like a great bike, especially if the geometry agrees with you. It seems to be very similar to your hub drive Scott so that question is easily answered.

If you can’t safely ride the athos then why not sell both that and the Scott and get the one you really want? You only live once and this moment is all that really counts!

i do enjoy a spin around town on the aethos, and it has a lot of sentimental value. but more to the point, i do hope to be able to do big rides on it again, someday. i’m on the (heart) transplant list as of a few months ago, and in theory, ideally, in a few years i might be back to riding a hundred miles up and down mountains without a motor.

 

[Calcoaster]

i do enjoy a spin around town on the aethos, and it has a lot of sentimental value. but more to the point, i do hope to be able to do big rides on it again, someday. i’m on the (heart) transplant list as of a few months ago, and in theory, ideally, in a few years i might be back to riding a hundred miles up and down mountains without a motor.

Wow, after reading this I’ll change my opinion and encourage you to keep the Aethos for your future rides, and if the Fastlane will work for you now then grab it! Your review made it clear that you were impressed with it and it put a smile on your face.

I like the looks of the 10 more than the chrome job too. If there was a way to raise the stack height or fit an angled stem on it I’d be tempted to get one. My TQ 50 has been flawless and I enjoy the silence every time I ride it but it’s fun to look at the new improved ones too.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@mschwett: I'm sure you can get both your leg power and other display parametres from the Fastlane on your smartphone (Bluetooth) or on an ANT+ device.

 

[stompandgo]

The cranks on my HPR50 based bike are ISIS. I changed the cranks to Praxis Type 4 E-Cranks in carbon. I am looking into having a Tempo power meter pod installed on the left side. There is 15mm of clearance on my frame, where 10mm is needed. The back of the crankarms are flat, which supports this kind of pod. I am in discussions with them now, and I'll let you know what they say. Point being, you should check what kind of BB the HPR40 uses, and the clearance on the chainstays of the Fastlane. It may be an option for you.

 

[Yako]

Hi all, thanks for adding me to the forum. I’ve just seen a new Canyon Endurace has been launched in Europe (looks exciting) and wonder if there is any possibility that a new Endurace Onfly will soon be using a similar frame design? I have been trying to order a bike since October with delivery advice changing weekly and currently showing not available to order until July - October. I’ve assumed that the delays are to with component supply issues but now wonder if the new acoustic Endurace frame design may be behind the lengthy availability delays for
the e-bike version. Certainly the new frame looks very appealing (particularly 38mm tyre clearance) and would make the already excellent Endurace Onfly an even more attractive option. Maybe someone on here may have some insight (Yako?).

Probably a bit late to the party, Captain, but from what Canyon told me about the possibility of swapping the Grizl ON fly to a TQ motor (none), I wouldn’t hold my breath re a new frame for the Endurace ON. They said they wouldn’t contemplate changes within 2-3 years of a launch owing to the expense of such a change - and the Endurace ON only came out last year. I also think the hype around the new Endurace, as an aero endurance geometry bike can now be seen as…optimistic? Hogwash? It’s race geometry through and through.

Quite what is going on with Endurace ON stocks though is beyond me. Canyon could have sold thousands of these in the States alone already. There’s a pinchpoint somewhere, but they are slowly getting delivered in Europe as viewers are excitedly telling me…

 

[Captainslow]

Thanks Yako. The “original” Endurace On will do me fine if and when I can get hold of one. Hopefully not too long to wait…