Drivetrain longevity on 2023 Surface 604 V Rook

[Jeremy McCreary]

Love my 2023 Surface 604 V Rook in every respect but one: The stock KMC chain and Shimano Alivio derailleur are completely shot at only 900 miles and 6 months!

The severely worn derailleur pantograph bearings allow way too much side-play now, and the chain can be bent sideways into 2/3 of a circle! The stock 9-speed cassette is also badly worn.

The mechanic at my LBS/dealer sees the derailleur as the root cause. And Alivio derailleur quality comes across as pretty low on EBR. But pantograph bearing failure at only 900 miles??

Wondering how other Surface 604 drivetrains are holding up?

To be fair, I've been kinda hard on the drivetrain. Bike and I weigh 260 lbs together, and I ride at PAS 1/9 at least 95% of the time. That includes at least 3-4 short, steep hills on every ride. (Grades of 7-11% are pretty common around here.)

To pedal the steepest hills at low assist, replaced the stock 42t chainring with a 38t at 200 miles and 2 months. Shifting wasn't quite as crisp thereafter but still acceptable for the next 3 months. Then rapid deterioration.

Key facts: Bike's never been hit or dropped. Didn't shorten the chain with LBS blessing. New chainring still shows only mild wear, but replacing it anyway just to be safe. Minimal chain rust from the local salt air. Could've been more diligent about chain care, but LBS mechanic sees the chain as a victim here, not the perp.

The lower gearing's been a BIG success in terms of rideability over local terrain, but it may have contributed to my drivetrain's early demise. The much beefier new drivetrain will also have 38t up front and an even lower 11-36t cassette. Fingers crossed.

TIA for sharing your experiences with Surface 604 drivetrains, good and bad.

 

[fooferdoggie]

how often do you clean the chain and lube it? I get around 2000 or so miles but I am going to try cleaning my chain more often see if I can increase it. you should get more so it sounds like all that slop happening. the only gear I wear out fast is the 13t cog on our tandem I think its down to less then 2000 miles. I did have one chain that only went 900 miles for some reason so that could have been part of it.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

how often do you clean the chain and lube it?

Not often enough, and that may have contributed. But the LBS mechanic thinks the derailleur body started it all.

Getting the bike back with upgraded drivetrain today! Fingers crossed. Meanwhile, got myself set up to make frequent chain maintenance easy.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Not often enough, and that may have contributed. But the LBS mechanic thinks the derailleur body started it all.

Getting the bike back with upgraded drivetrain today! Fingers crossed. Meanwhile, got myself set up to make frequent chain maintenance easy.

I notice I would loose 500 miles riding in the winter. so its all together. the park chain cleaner is a easy way to deal with it. I like to use rock and roll lube as it stays pretty clean.

 

[keithj69]

Not having those issues on my Werk. I actually went to a 44 tooth chainring on it. Big difference is I ride on flat Florida multi use paths. Plus have 1/2 the miles you have.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I notice I would loose 500 miles riding in the winter. so its all together. the park chain cleaner is a easy way to deal with it. I like to use rock and roll lube as it stays pretty clean.

Interesting winter-chain connection. Except for a few rides each in light rain and on wet Pacific beach sand, my 900 miles were pretty dry. Always rinsed the whole bike off after beach rides, including the derailleur and chain, but didn't clean and relube the chain afterward.

The Park Tool chain cleaner and a new set of wire brushes and lube appicators are ready and waiting. Got these on recommendations from EBR. I think one of the Park Tool recommendations was yours, so thanks!

https://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-CG-2-4-Bicycle-Cleaning/dp/B07Z8JH85V?pd_rd_w=dXqVv&content-id=amzn1.sym.04403bf9-6a11-4d6c-8688-bf096c6899e1&pf_rd_p=04403bf9-6a11-4d6c-8688-bf096c6899e1&pf_rd_r=77SSY394GSKQR8RXENMC&pd_rd_wg=a4Mmq&pd_rd_r=c8fd4b02-433f-49f6-a24c-ecccd40a133b&pd_rd_i=B07Z8JH85V&psc=1&ref_=pd_bap_m_grid_dv_rp_0_1_i

 

[gromike]

Sand seems to be an element in your bike's usage. Could that be accelerating drivetrain wear?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Sand seems to be an element in your bike's usage. Could that be accelerating drivetrain wear?

Yes, every paradise has its sand, and it finds its way into and onto everything here — on the beaches, trails, and roads, in all our cars, in the house, inside shoes, sometimes in bed. Resistance is futile. Nothing left but to become one with it.

However, my drivetrain's less philosophical. Sand in the pantograph bearings could well have started this failure cascade. Will have to keep an eye on that going forward.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Yes, every paradise has its sand, and it finds its way into and onto everything here — on the beaches, trails, and roads, in all our cars, in the house, inside shoes, sometimes in bed. Resistance is futile. Nothing left but to become one with it.

However, my drivetrain's less philosophical. Sand in the pantograph bearings could well have started this failure cascade. Will have to keep an eye on that going forward.

you need to use a really dry lube to keep the chain from attracting sand.

 

[PedalUma]

Peanut butter jars! I will wash my chains in a dedicated peanut butter jar. I use a degreaser such as Simple Green along with liquid laundry detergent and shake that puppy every way for ten minutes. Then I rinse multiple times while shaking. I also keep dry wax nano lube in another peanut butter jar. After wiping and mostly drying the chain in it goes for another shaking session immersed in lube. Then I hag it off a chopstick in my vice; I admit my vices. And let it drip back into the jar. After air drying it gets wiped some more and back onto the bike. The lube needs to get inside the rollers or it does no good. This stuff does not attract grit and can be used on jockey wheels, tensioners, and derailleur pivot points. Hint: Attach the chain together off the chainring. It is much easier.

 

[keithj69]

Peanut butter jars! I will wash my chains in a dedicated peanut butter jar. I use a degreaser such as Simple Green along with liquid laundry detergent and shake that puppy every way for ten minutes. Then I rinse multiple times while shaking. I also keep dry wax nano lube in another peanut butter jar. After wiping and mostly drying the chain in it goes for another shaking session immersed in lube. Then I hag it off a chopstick in my vice; I admit my vices. And let it drip back into the jar. After air drying it gets wiped some more and back onto the bike. The lube needs to get inside the rollers or it does no good. This stuff does not attract grit and can be used on jockey wheels, tensioners, and derailleur pivot points. Hint: Attach the chain together off the chainring. It is much easier.

What is your playlist while you shake the peanut butter chain? Sounds like I could use your motivation while I ride.

 

[PedalUma]

What is your playlist while you shake the peanut butter chain? Sounds like I could use your motivation while I ride.

 

[keithj69]

Not my first choice, but ok, i'll try .

edit: Nope

 

[PedalUma]

Okay, how about this one? As a playlist. For that I was thinking a glass jar.

 

[keithj69]

Okay, how about this one? As a playlist. For that I was thinking a glass jar.

Paul McCartney anytime.

 

[smorgasbord]

The Park Tool chain cleaner and a new set of wire brushes and lube appicators are ready and waiting. Got these on recommendations from EBR.

Hard to go wrong with Park Tool stuff, but I found that this Clean Streak setup to be better for me:

https://www.amazon.com/White-Lightning-Clean-Streak-Degreaser/dp/B000AAEDC6/

With a hub motor you shouldn't have a problem with backwards pedaling to move the chain with either setup, but for mid-drive bikes one has to be more inventive since the cranks ratchet and doesn't move the chain backwards.

PS: Do you have your upgraded drivetrain installed? What did you go with?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Hard to go wrong with Park Tool stuff, but I found that this Clean Streak setup to be better for me:

https://www.amazon.com/White-Lightning-Clean-Streak-Degreaser/dp/B000AAEDC6/

View attachment 152593

With a hub motor you shouldn't have a problem with backwards pedaling to move the chain with either setup, but for mid-drive bikes one has to be more inventive since the cranks ratchets and doesn't move the chain backwards.

PS: Do you have your upgraded drivetrain installed? What did you go with?

Thanks! Nice design on that cleaning system. If the Park Tool cleaner doesn't work out, I'll try it.

As for the new drivetrain...

The good news: The new 10-speed Shimano Deore derailleur and SAINT shifter change gears like a dream! The ergononmics are spot on for my hands. We'll see how the new 38t Wolf Tooth aluminum chainring lasts.

The bad news: The cassette is NOT the 11-36t the mechanic and I agreed on. It's an 11-42t or 12-42t — probably the latter, cuz it feels like my new top gear is lower than the 95" I intended to keep. And the chain is NOT the SRAM EX-1 we agreed on. The billing isn't right, either.

On the bright side, an 11-42t cassette does make some sense for my home topography, knees, and riding style — though it might need a 40t or 42t chainring to really shine. I'll have at least a few days to see how it rides at 38t.

The LBS has been good to me in the past. We'll work it out.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Hard to go wrong with Park Tool stuff, but I found that this Clean Streak setup to be better for me:

https://www.amazon.com/White-Lightning-Clean-Streak-Degreaser/dp/B000AAEDC6/

View attachment 152593

With a hub motor you shouldn't have a problem with backwards pedaling to move the chain with either setup, but for mid-drive bikes one has to be more inventive since the cranks ratchet and doesn't move the chain backwards.

PS: Do you have your upgraded drivetrain installed? What did you go with?

I used one for awhile but I dont think it cleans as well and its a lot harder to hold and use plus the smell and cost. when I use the park cleaner it helps debunk my whole drivetrain.

 

[smorgasbord]

With the 12-42 rear, would you go back to the 42T front chainring?
EDIT: Here's a page you can use to compare gear ratios: https://www.bikecalc.com/gear_ratios

Wolftooth makes good products. I have one of their narrow-wide chainrings and it's holding up great with a mid-drive. With a hub motor you won't be putting near as much force.

The Shimano Deore/Saint components are really good.

Changing to the EX-1 chain should be under $40 new.

 

[smorgasbord]

I used one for awhile but I dont think it cleans as well and its a lot harder to hold and use plus the smell and cost. when I use the park cleaner it helps debunk my whole drivetrain.

I might agree with it being harder to hold, but not on the other points. It's good that there are different high quality products for us to choose from!