4th Gen CCS will be available with 52V battery

[Chris Hammond]

Hi all CCS owners and any RipCurrent S (RCS) owners as well.
I have been contemplating the purchase of a CCS for a while. I was just on Juiced page, and the CCS ordering info now shows that you can order with the same 52V 21 Ah battery that is available in the RCS. Price premium is hefty for the bigger battery though. On both bikes price jumps to $2999. This does include a cycle satiator charger from Grin Tech and GPS tracking on the battery. These are available separately on Juiced site, at $395 for the charger and $250 for the GPS tracking. That makes the battery upgrade a $655 from the stock 48V 12.8 Ah battery, or $355 more than the 48V 19.2 Ah battery.

I would love some feedback from those of you who own a CCS or RCS with an upgraded battery. I was originally planning on the 48V 21 Ah battery upgrade that is no longer available. It was priced at $2399.

I have a long distance commute (60 miles round trip). I am planning on purchasing a second charger for work, so I am reasonably sure the mid-level battery would be big enough for the job. However, I am a speed oriented rider and the appeal of the 52 V battery is compelling to say the least. If my calculations are correct the mid-level battery is 921 watt hours and the big battery is 1092 watt hours. I would guess I am going to average ~20-25 watts per mile, because I am likely to travel at 25 - 32 mph barring traffic, lights, etc.

I would like to ideally only charge the battery at 80% to maximize longevity. This would put me at a usage of 600 to 750 W on each leg of my commute. That would put me close to running the battery empty, and I definitely don't want to do that. I was planning on setting the controller to have the battery minimum voltage at 20%.

Ultimately, I guess I'm trying to justify the $1000 price premium for the big battery and add on's.
Is it going to be worth it? It really is going to stretch my budget to do that, or will the newly bigger mid-range battery be good enough based on others real world experience. Thanks.

 

[hurricane56]

I have a HF1000 that I’ve been using as a commuter platform for 250 miles. Granted the HF has a 35 amp controller, so I’m using more power than a CCS, but for my 17 mile one way commute I use about 13ah of the 21ah battery. About 60% of my ride has wide open roads where I can use sport mode to average well over 30mph.

If this is correct, experts correct me if I’m wrong. The difference between the 52v 21ah battery and the 48v 19.2ah is roughly 130wh? Probably not worth it if it’s going to bust your budget.

 

[Reid]

(snip)...The difference between the 52v 21ah battery and the 48v 19.2ah is roughly 130wh? Probably not worth it if it’s going to bust your budget.

My five cents: it isn't just the nominal capacity, it's the useable capacity that matters.

52V is hugely appealing over 48V because more of the capacity is usable. For instance:

Today I ran 490Wh off my CCS (2nd production) 12.8Ah 48V, nominal 614Wh battery, generally pushing pretty hard into a very stiff headwind, and pretty fast overall, on purpose, to test the endurance of the pack.

At that 490Wh point, with 35 miles on the odometer, the voltage dropped on any load to 40 and the power assist was so small as to be essentially useless.

OTOH, if I had a 52V battery I would have had much more usable power near the LVC (low voltage cutoff).

The next pack I get will definitely be 52V.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Thanks for the feedback Reid.
A couple of questions for you. If you had upgraded to the midlevel battery that was 17.4 Ah for gen2, do you think you would still feel like you need the 52 V pack?
The 17.4 Ah pack would have ~835 Wh at full charge, so about another 220 more than your pack; also the 4th gen CCS midrange pack will have ~920 Wh which is nearly 50% more capacity than your current pack. I really am curious about the real world experience of CCS and RCS owners here.
I have essentially decided to go with a CCS rather than a build kit. I really don't want to have buyers remorse from not getting enough battery, but also would really rather pay $2k instead of $3K.
As I said in previous post, my round trip is 60 miles, and I am hoping to generally charge to only 80% for the 30 miles one way. I do frequently have a stiff headwind riding home in the evening. (This is one of the big reasons for my desire to buy and ebike. I historically commuted on my road bike, but tended to avoid biking on windy days because it sucked the fun right out of it pedaling at max effort and only going 12-15 mph, instead of my usual 17-20 mph with moderate/high effort.)

 

[Tora Harris]

My suggestion is to get the biggest battery you can afford regardless of whatever brand you go with. These things are seriously addictive and like everyone uses the e-bike way more than they ever imagined. The 52V pack is one of the most advanced packs available at the moment. It has been several years in the making. You can definitely feel the difference from the 52V pack and the 48V pack. We will soon get some test results published and a bike to Court for review. It is an extremely impressive machine. The 52V pack needs the Cycle Satiator charger as that is the only charger with UL at the moment that can properly charge the big 52V packs. It can charge so fast and with so much range per charge, your perception totally changes about e-bikes.

 

[Andy_in_CA]

My suggestion is to get the biggest battery you can afford regardless of whatever brand you go with. These things are seriously addictive and like everyone uses the e-bike way more than they ever imagined. The 52V pack is one of the most advanced packs available at the moment. It has been several years in the making. You can definitely feel the difference from the 52V pack and the 48V pack. We will soon get some test results published and a bike to Court for review. It is an extremely impressive machine. The 52V pack needs the Cycle Satiator charger as that is the only charger with UL at the moment that can properly charge the big 52V packs. It can charge so fast and with so much range per charge, your perception totally changes about e-bikes.

Tora, are 1st run CCS compatible with the new 52V batter? If not is there an upgrade path?

 

[Tora Harris]

Yes the first generation CCS can use the 52V power system. The development of the platform was always with anticipation of the new 52V standard. We made sure it would be forward compatible to avoid obsoleting bikes in the field.

 

[Andy_in_CA]

Awesome Tora,

I love my CCS. I have probably close to 1000 miles on it since Sept. 22 miles a day round trip commuting in LA. (@3 + times a week)

Thanks!

Andy

 

[Reid]

Yes the first generation CCS can use the 52V power system. The development of the platform was always with anticipation of the new 52V standard. We made sure it would be forward compatible to avoid obsoleting bikes in the field.

Thanks, Tora!

Readers: Every electric motor ever made is a current operated device. Every electric motor develops with increasing speed an increasing, counter electrical voltage pressure called back EMF (electro motive force). That back EMF, and the pulse width modulation of a controller (PWM takes very rapid, variable sized gulps of full current from the battery) in conjunction with a smaller battery's higher internal resistance which increases so-called voltage sag caused by internal resistance, which sag will cause dips into the brick wall of the LVC with declining pack voltage... well, all these factors co-contribute to weak motor performance at the bottom end of a 48V battery's discharge.
Therefore, a larger 48V battery with more cells in parallel for lower internal resistance is better, and better yet is a higher voltage battery, by the few extra volts of EMF that it provides, to afford much improved performance overall: and especially to my interest, more useful power if we ever go near the LVC (low voltage cutoff).

The 52V pack should provide more useful power down to the bottom of its discharge; there will be more remaining pep near LVC of a 52V battery, instead of my 12.8Ah 48V pack's present pitiful poop-out.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Thanks for the info Tora. I wasn't aware that you are only offering the Cycle satiator as the 52V charger. Due to the length of my commute, (60 miles round trip), I am planning on having a charger both at home and at work. I was planning on using the satiator at home and using a regular 2A style charger at work and just setting a timer to charge to ~80%. Are you planning on making a standard charger available. Or would a 48V charger be acceptable as the voltage cutoff will get me to the 80% mark anyway? I really don't want to spend money for 2 satiator chargers. Thanks for your help.

 

[Dunbar]

While I wholeheartedly agree that you should go with the biggest battery you can justify you should also consider the duty cycle that battery cells are rated for. I know that when the 48V 21AH batteries released it was pointed out that the GA cells only last about 1/4 as long when charged to 100%. So if you do splurge for the 21AH battery make sure to charge it to 80% max for the daily commute. Luna Bikes sells chargers for $100 that will charge to 80% if you need to invest in a second charger to charge at work. I have the original Cross Current with the 17.4AH battery and I did a 30 mile round trip commute one week. Even if charged to 100% the bike was getting pretty sluggish for the last 1/4 of the trip. My observation is that the last 25% of battery charge is not especially usable on any high powered e-bike. My Cross Current would barely make it up a small hill when I was a couple miles from home (and I’ve heard the Cross Current S does the same thing.)

 

[Chris Hammond]

Thanks for the reply Dunbar. Its good, (actually bad in the application), to hear that your performance suffered that much at the end of a 30 mile commute. Can you tell me how you were riding with the 30 mile commute (assist setting level, rough average speed, hills/climbing, etc.) Based on your above comment it seems I would be unhappy long term with anything other than the new 52V 21Ah battery. Thanks. PS. I am aware of the Luna chargers. Anyone have real world experience, reviews seem a little mixed on their site. I honestly would rather just have a simple 2A charger for work as it would likely fit my needs well and would be simple to manually control the level of charge while at work.

 

[Dunbar]

Here is my Strava data. Keep in mind this is riding through the middle of Los Angeles in peak rush hour on the outbound leg. Lots of cars, stop signs and traffic lights. I was riding on ‘S’ mode the whole time pedaling hard. There’s a slight (maybe 1-2 degree) incline on the way out and typically an on-shore breeze to fight on the way back. My Cross Current has ‘only’ 13A of peak power so it’s not going to cruise at 28mph in all conditions (especially once the battery gets under 50%.) The Cross Current S has 20A peak so you’re going to probably average a good 2-3mph faster than I would. My Cross current feels noticeably peppier when I charge to 54.5V (100%) vs ~52V (75-80%) so I can see the 52V battery making a difference. I just don’t know if it solves the problem of sluggishness once the battery gets /www.strava.com/activities/947010542

 

[Chris Hammond]

Thanks again Dunbar. Just to give you a perspective, here is my Strava data from a ride home from work on my road bike. It's actually a little farther than your round trip. Kinda why I am wanting an ebike. I frequently have a headwind on the ride home and it sucks the fun out of the ride and has caused me to more frequently skip bike commuting. https://www.strava.com/activities/1066367251

 

[Bruce Arnold]

My experience is different from Dunbar's. I have a Crosscurrent S with the 17.4 ah battery. I've pedaled right at 50 miles on the current charge and have 2 bars left - it says 45 volts on the LCD panel. I took it off the charger at 52 volts and have the controller set with the default 40 volt bottom limit. I use the Eco and 1 mode almost exclusively. Occasional throttle assist boost when taking off from a stoplight or going up a hill. Eastern North Carolina is pretty flat so the hills are neither long nor steep. I usually ride between 15-18 mph, although occasionally notice I'm up to 20-22. Upwards of 20 mph, aerodynamic resistance becomes the chief factor in how much power it takes to increase speed; stay below this and battery range is much improved. Bear in mind that I'm overweight (losing 1-2 pounds per week since starting to ride!) so the motor has to work harder getting the bike up to speed. I mention all these factors to allow you to evaluate my information. I'm glad I paid the extra money for the 17.4 ah battery because it gives me great range. Would I like to have the 52 volt battery? You bet! Do I feel underpowered with 48 volts? No, I don't. I'd go with what Tora said. Buy the biggest battery you can afford and don't worry about it. BTW the 2 amp charger will get you from 20% to over 50% pretty quickly, and is not too large or heavy to throw in a backpack, if you want to charge at work.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Thanks for the info Bruce. Our riding styles are a little different. But your point about riding speed is well taken. It brings up an interesting question, do any of you ever ride with the motor off? Especially, I am curious about riding feel and effort needed versus a regular bike. I have started back commuting to work on my road bike since Utah has been having a ridiculously warm winter. (I never thought I'd be able to ride to work in January in Utah.) On my ride home the first 8 miles or so are mostly downhill and through slower city streets where I can ride at the same speed as car traffic in many areas. I am thinking I would be able to ride though this with zero assist at still relatively high speeds, and then turn on the motor when it flattens out. I do have a smallish climb ~500 ft elevation over a few miles near the end of my ride that I would like to have plenty of battery left, as I should be able to ride this on S assist at 25-30 mph as there is little traffic and only 1 stop light. I would rather just have a second charger at work rather than haul it with me as my trunk bag on my rear rack is packed full especially in the cold with carrying shed clothing layers.

 

[Eglon]

Chris, I live in southern Utah county and have an HF if you'd like to get a feel for how it rides power off. It's more sluggish than the CCS would be of course, but you might be interested anyway. One reason I got the HF was especially to commute in the winters.

 

[Tora Harris]

We do not make the chargers, we buy them from suppliers. There are other 52V chargers sold on the market at the moment, but the Cycle Satiator we have chosen for this battery is the only one that actually has the UL certifications. It is relatively expensive, but once you start using it, you dont want any other charger to come near your battery. Our bikes are “tuned” to go around 28 mph, so top speed may be a little more effected by voltage drop. The thing is you get addicted to going fast and 20mph starts to feel slow. The 52V pack can continue the higher speeds right to the end. Also right off the charger it can really fly. Another thing is if you charge it to 80% it can still more or less match the performance of a 48V pack charged to 100%. It really is the future but we are making it available today.

 

[Dunbar]

As far as riding with the motor off it is not recommended. You’re essentially riding an over-geared (for slow speeds) 55-60lb. bike at that point. I had a connection come loose once and had to ride home 7 miles unassisted and it was absolutely brutal (and I’m fairly light and fit.) The ‘eco’ setting makes it feel more like a normal bike and uses a fraction of the power of the higher settings. On a slight decline you can turn the assistance level down to the lowest few settings and still cruise fast. I’ve hit the high 20’s before on like a 2-3 degree decline on eco or level 1 assist thanks to gravity. The only problem will be what goes down must come up. So it will help you one way but hurt you the other. My suggestion would be not to over-analyze the situation. The CCS with the biggest battery should be able to handle your commute on the highest two levels of assistance. It’s just a question of how much you’ll need to charge the battery in order to accomplish the mission.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I've got to agree with Dunbar. The Eco setting sips power. And as to speed, I was doing 22 mph on a slight down slope today in Eco, in 9th gear, with very little effort. You may find you can get the speed you want without having to go full-time S level all the time. Have you watched the video Tora made about a fun run with a long, sometimes steep uphill climb?