48V vs 52V battery for Ultra 1000

tempestrock

New Member
I'm looking at placing an order for the Ultra 1000 once they get back in stock and noticed that BikTrix has added an option today for a 52V 17.5Ah battery.

What would the benefit be for a 52V 17.5Ah battery versus the 48V 21Ah battery?

Based on BikTrix website the 52V has about a 5 mile LESS range than the 48V.
 
Per the Juiced web site'
What is the point of having a 52V e-bike battery?
E-bikes have evolved from 24V to 36V, then 48V and now we have reached 52V. Basically, the higher voltage will let you get more performance out of your e-bike. The battery can be a little more efficient as you can use less current to produce the same amount of power, but the main point is overall better performance.

When this higher performance is combined with a larger pack capacity and the latest charging techniques, we can achieve a surprisingly high cycle life while maintaining very satisfying performance.
 
Why would someone spending ~$2K on a Juiced eBike spend another 15% for a battery charger?

The Satiator is great, but then so are R&M $10K eBikes.
 
Marginal difference. You’ll go further with the 21A battery. Very modest gains with a 52V. 52v are over rated. I get 2MPH faster for the first few volts. Save your money go for higher Amp battery.
 
I saw 2-4MPH but that soon drops off. So 10% is probably right. + 3mph. I was conservative with 2mph.
 
Won't the top speed drop off with any battery, and so starting higher means you stay higher at the same point during any ride?

Here's a table:

Battery %52 Volt Battery48 Volt Battery
100%58.8 volts54.6 volts
90%57.1 volts53.0 volts
80%55.4 volts51.5 volts
75%54.6 volts50.7 volts
70%53.8 volts49.9 volts
60%52.1 volts48.4 volts


If you consume 20% of the power available on both batteries, you've still got a higher voltage from the 52-volt battery and so will still go faster than your riding companion with the 48-volt battery. Even more, as I bolded, the 52-volt battery puts out as many volts at 75% as the 48-volt battery at 100%. That's a compelling power/speed advantage.

And still another way to look at it is that you can charge your 52-volt battery to only 80% to help preserve the longevity and still have the same top speed. Of course, since with the examples given the overall watt-hour capacity is less, your range would be even more greatly reduced.

Of course, we want it all - power and range. But, for now in this case, while one can certainly say that range is more important to you than power, I don't think it's fair to say that the power advantage is not real, noticeable, and lasts through-out the ride.
 
I run a 52V pack on mine, charged with Cycle Satiator to 56.5V (about 85% full, this is for extended pack longevity, which is why I've invested in the Satiator)

Definitely a tiny bit more top speed, and you can feel the minor power difference in acceleration...

As pointed out by smogasbord, it also keeps the voltage higher for longer, which directly factors into how long you can maintain higher speeds (as nominal volts drop, the motors peak RPM also drops).

For pure mileage, the 48V 21Ah pack has the slight edge... But if you prefer more speed to sheer range, 52V has the edge for sure.
 
I just received my Ultra 1000 last week with the 52v upgrade (it was not on the web page at the time of ordering) First few rides, it is powerful, so far no problems on my hills. (have not tried the big one yet) Will try to re-program the special sauce parameters this weekend...
 
I run a 52V pack on mine, charged with Cycle Satiator to 56.5V ... Definitely a tiny bit more top speed, and you can feel the minor power difference in acceleration...

Try it at 100% (58.8 volts) sometime.

BTW, how does the Biktrix display handle battery SoC reporting at 52 volts? If it's like they Lunas, the battery SoC percentage will be wrong, forcing you to look at volts and doing the mental math. (Another aspect that the EggRider handles well, btw).
 
52V with 21 amp hours, is basically the king of the hill for a 2020 Ebike.
Like this guy
Luna Battery

Next step is the 21700 cell upgrade for more power output within the same voltage
 
The 52V will give you more power.

However, in your case, the 48V 21Ah has more Wh, which means, you can get more range.

52V x 17.5Ah = 910Wh
48V x 21Ah = 1008Wh

The Wh is what determines the range (assuming you set the power to the same)

In theory, if you set your power at 500W (the W will constantly change while you ride) for example, you can run 1.82 hours (1 hour 49 minutes) with 910Wh, and 2.016 hours (2 hours 1 minute) with 1008Wh battery.

You are right, but that being said, these Bafang motors usually have a LVC of 43V. When the 48V battery drops down to around 46V you will notice a big performance drop. Whereas if you use the same amount of battery on a 52V, it will be around 48-49V which means that you notice no drop in performance. Due to this, you end up getting very similar and comparable usable range from a 48V 21ah as a 52V 17.5Ah.
 
Ok, this is simply not true.
(or not necessarily true)

It is depending on the BMS and most importantly, cells.

You're only looking at the voltage. Not the drain rate (amperage) of cells.

Just because the battery pack says 48V (54.6V), it doesn't mean they can provide equal amount of power (wattage) compare to other 48V.
Fact is, some 36V batteries can outperform some 48V batteries.
This is exactly why you can't just look at the voltage (V) and amperage (Ah) to determine the battery performance.

HillEater (ebike company in Canada) initially used their 36V pack because high quality cells can burst so much amperage, you don't NEED 48V or 52V to produce mere 850W or so.
However, I don't think consumers quite understood the concept of electrical engineering aspect of it, so it appeared that 36V battery was immediately dismissed as inferior version of "more powerful" 48V and 52V packs with cheaper cells (low burst / drain rate) from other ebike companies.
Yeah, 52V sounds more powerful than 36V, but in reality, if both bikes are producing 750W for example, virtually there's no difference.

( For those of you familiar with RC cars, did you notice Tamiya 7.2V RC cars are way faster, and batteries are way more powerful than Toys "R" Us 9.6V RC cars? )

Your argument of once it drops down to 46V, you will notice a big difference is because of crappy cells with low burst rate.
This is exactly why Tora (owner of Juiced Bikes) no longer cells 52V 21Ah battery pack, because it was packed with high capacity, but low burst rate cells.

As you probably know, wattage (W) = voltage (V) x amperage (Ah)
If the battery cells have low burst amperage rate, the wattage (W) will inevitably lower because of the voltage is at 46V.

For example, let's say your bike (controller) demands 750W in a given situation, to provide 750W of power, at fully charged at 54.6V, the battery only needs to provide 13.73A of amperage.
Okay, here's the thing, now assume the voltage dropped down to 46V, and the controller demands 750W of power, at 46V, the battery will need to provide 16.3A of amperage.
But what if the pack's max amperage rate was 15A? It can only provide 690W. Not 750W as demanded. This is exactly how you see the power drop.
(Yes, I know it could also depend on BMS and perhaps the controller used, but you get the idea)
But what if you use high quality cells, like 36V pack with powerful cells that can provide 30A power?
The fully charged 36V pack is 42V.
At 42V, to provide 750W of power, it needs to provide 17.85A of amperage, it is still a safe zone.
What if 36V battery voltage drops down to 32.4V? (near empty, 20%) it would have to provide 23.15A, which is far less than 30A max amperage.

This is exactly why you don't see power drop bikes equipped with high performance cells.

Interesting observations, in my industry (cordless power tools) there is only 18650 and the 21700 lithium cells now, everything else is pretty much gone with the big players.
Higher capacity discharge within popular voltages mostly 18. So if your argument is within the same cell family number, a lower voltage being better than higher voltage cannot be true, for example the 21700.
For example there is no possible way for a 12V battery to be better and stronger than a 18V using the same cell family number, and even if you put up the amp hours, that only effects mostly run time not the needed power output.
 
You're absolutely right, there's no way 12V can be better than 18V battery if you're using the same cell.
That's exactly why I said high performance cells and cheap cells.
Lower voltage packs (36V for example) packed with high performance cells can outperform 48V with low quality cells.
It is more so the case especially when voltage is so close like 48V and 52V.

Let's look at Samsung cells.

Even if you use 35E and 30Q, you will get quite a bit of difference. Some ebikes still use 26F cells (my stock Juiced battery was packed with 26F)
As you can see, the discharge rate is drastically different depending on what cells you use, this is why you can't say just because it's a 48V, it is not as powerful as 52V.

SAMSUNG 35E
  • Nominal Capacity: 3500mAh
  • Continuous Discharge Rating: 8A
  • Pulse Discharge Rating: ?
  • Nominal Voltage: 3.6v
SAMSUNG 30Q
  • Nominal Capacity: 3000mAh
  • Continuous Discharge Rating: 15A
  • Pulse Discharge Rating: 25A
  • Nominal Voltage: 3.6V
SAMSUNG 26F
  • Nominal Capacity: 2600mAh
  • Continuous Discharge Rating: 5.2A
  • Pulse Discharge Rating: ?
  • Nominal Voltage: 3.6V
And as you can imagine, if you download the characteristics of battery power decline (usually in graph / chart) 30Q can sustain more power for longer period of time.

HillEater also tried to explain to the customers why 36V doesn't mean it's not as powerful, by writing out the formula and all that, but I don't think they were very successful convincing people.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
Interesting that the 35E is specifically recommended for Ebikes, I think one of the questions I would ask with my next Ebike purchase is what specific cell is their battery using beyond the voltage and amp hours standard question. For example I don't want a 26F cell.
 
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