30 miles commute, confused between hub vs mid-drive

[RoyalFlush]

Hi everyone!


Been lurking for a while trying to find the right e-bike to purchase. Sincerely appreciate all the amazing info here but just overwhelmed. Thought I make a post for a more granular view of specific needs. Love to get your thoughts and thanks in advance for them!

TL;DR: rented Trek Supercommuter 8+ for 30 miles commute, found it to be underwhelming in power and battery range. Thought mid-drive is better but seeing multiple posts suggesting the Juiced CrossCurrent X which looks to be a hub drive.

Context:
- 30 miles commute for work (15 there and back)
- some minor elevation but mostly flat (but routes may change depending on job in the near future; love to near-future-proof it)
- 180 lbs, 5'10ish, finding myself riding upright most of the commute (may be due to backpack with laptops)
- very few bike shops around, had to drive 30+ min to rent a Trek Supercommuter 8+ for testing (so no way to test the Juiced CC X bike)
- Found Trek rental to be not powerful enough, and hard to pedal when battery runs out or nearing the 28 mph limit (ran out during a commute, had to get a truck to pick me up)
- Took bike on hiking trail once during testing (may do it again with new purchase but consider that a once a month thing)

Want:
- Power! - Trek bike felt lacking in power when pedaling
- Battery range - longer the range the better
- Min. 28 mph - option to increase it if I can (to like 32 mph if possible to cut my commute time)
- Low maintenance - not a bike guy and lacking legit bike shops in the area
- Handles some elevation and occasional trails
- Ride like a normal bike if battery does run out/motor craps out, etc. - and don't make things harder when i exceed 28 mph manually
- (Nice to have) thumb throttle for one of those days
- (Not sure) rain-proof?

I'm intrigued by the Juiced CC X big battery & 750W motor, but read conflicting views on hub drive (in favor of mid-drive, which was what the Trek had). Confused, so love to hear your thoughts and any other bike suggestions. Budget preference: $2k - $3k but willing to spend more if it ticks all the boxes & more.
Thanks!

 

[Gator]

Giant has a new Quick E + for 2019.
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes/e-bike/transit

It has larger tires and the rack can be upgraded to a MIK system with a $30.00 flat top shelf piece. At 3 grand it is a lot of Ebike. I am very happy with my 2018 model. The mid-drive has a little more torque than the Super Commuter and 2 grand less. I say this having test driven an SC 8 and also comparing specs. I have had my bike up to 31 mph and it is a lot of wind resistance, but the motor did not feel like it was restricting my pedaling beyond 28 MPH. You might need to consider a faring if you want to commute at 28+ MPH regularly. I have read wind resistance really eats up the battery charge after 20 MPH and I have found this to be true in my experience commuting.

Most important; have fun in your search. I had a lot of fun arriving at my decision and bringing my 23 mile round trip commute back into reach with an Ebike.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I have the CCS. Believe me, I wish I was in the market today, I'd go for the CCX in a heartbeat. The power of these bikes is hella fun.

Legally, they can't say it will provide assistance over 28, but I've been up to 30 on level ground a few times so there's some overlap. Here's something to think about, though: the harder you ride, the more maintenance you will need: disc brake pads replaced, derailleur tuned, spokes tensioned, tires replaced. And your battery runs out more quickly. Everything is a trade-off.

As far as trails, that depends. I go on grass, dirt and gravel from time to time. I wouldn't remotely call it mountain biking, but it is off-road. You might consider the RipCurrent; pretty much the same specs as the CCX and the fat tires take some of the sting out of the bumpy parts. The CCX is a lot easier to pedal if you run out of battery.

With the motors Juiced uses, they don't make it harder when you exceed their limit. You notice that they aren't helping any more, but there's no drag in the system.

Thumb throttle, check. I don't use it much, but I like it when I do.

Rain proof? That's a matter of definition. I've been out in some torrential downpours with high winds and absolutely no negative consequences with the bike. But no one is going to guarantee that.

You do have to be comfortable doing some of the set-up and maintenance yourself. I'm not particularly handy, and got through it OK, so the bar really isn't set that high. But since you mention low maintenance, there it is. YouTube really is your friend when it comes to this kind of thing.

I have an LBS about 7 miles away where I take my bike. They aren't particularly savvy about ebikes, but all I've needed so far has been related to the bike part, not the "e" part, so that's well within their expertise.

I'm sure some other folks will jump in with other recommendations. We live at the time when ebikes are starting to come on strong, so there are a lot of options. The CCX checks pretty much all your boxes, but there are others that would be good too -- I'm just not familiar with any bikes except mine and my wife's Pedego.

 

[ebikemom]

Pedego City Commuter?? You can get a big battery which has tons of range if you are mostly in flat areas.

 

[RoyalFlush]

Thanks @Bruce Arnold @ebikemom @Gator for the suggestions!

I'm leaning more and more towards the CCX, just tough to pull the trigger since it doesn't ship until Oct. Just need to sleep on it for a night.
Though I have recurring concerns about the geared hub on steeper climbs, I imagine the throttle can get me over that hump (pun intended haha) if push comes to shove (literally haha - sorry couldn't help myself).

If you guys have any additional recommendations/suggestions (or "STOP DONT BUY" comments), please don't be shy! I'll most likely pull the trigger this week one way or another (been searching since June!).

 

[RoyalFlush]

Also @Bruce Arnold, i chatted with a customer rep from Juiced and apparently the Ripcurrent S has the same spec as the CCX, except for fatter tires. Any thoughts on this? I'm also considering getting that instead since it's available now.

 

[Chris Hammond]

So I will chime in with my experience.
I own a CCS as well. My commute is 30 miles each way. When I bought, I was able to get the 52V 21Ah battery which is no longer available, but only about 100 Wh more capacity than the 52V 19.2Ah battery
That said, I typically only charge my battery to 80%, and have never even come close to depleting the battery. I generally use ~500 Wh of energy in each direction (range 400-600 depending on wind direction). I do recharge at work.
A brief explanation of hub vs. mid drive for commuting at high speed. I researched ebikes for ~ 6 months before I ordered, and read everything I could. I didn't want to make a mistake. I also test rode several ebikes including the Trek SC8.
So mid-drives apply power thru the chain to the rear wheel and can thus leverage the bikes gears for more torque. This is very beneficial when climbing at low speeds, as the motor can operate at an efficient speed. The flip side of this that most people don't understand is that as you go faster, the torque leverage reverses once your chainring size is larger than the rear cog you are in for higher speed. Thus mid-drives have less torque available at the rear wheel at higher speeds.
This problem is reversed in hub drives. Electric motors are inherently inefficient at low speeds and become more efficient as the motor speed increases. Since the hub powers the wheel directly the torque available is unchanged by the bikes gearing, but at high speeds hubs are at their most efficient.
Most ebike junkies building their bikes for high speed commuting are using hub drives.

As Bruce said, either the CCS or CCX will check all your boxes.
I commute at high speeds, mostly 28-32 mph while cruising along. This is mostly in level 3 assist (4th of 5 settings in Juiced lingo).

If you are not planning on recharging at work, then get the biggest battery you can afford. (I'd recommend this regardless as you will not regret having extra range, but you will surely regret not enough).
The 52V 19.2Ah battery is ~998 Wh (essentially 1kWh) of capacity, or roughly double the capacity of the Trek and most other ebikes. 500 Wh is very common capacity for ebikes. There are really only a handful of bikes that offer the battery capacity that Juiced does. In a hub drive bike that is purpose built to be a long distance, high speed commuter, that is fully equipped with lights, rack, fenders, etc; Juiced CCS is the only one I am aware of short of the ~$10K Stromer or ~$8K Reise & Muller.

Also at full charge with the 52V battery (58.8V) the CCS will provide assistance up to ~37.5 mph. This top speed will slowly drop as battery voltage drops during use. When you get down to say 40% charge (~48.5V) top speed is ~ 31.5 mph.

 

[rich c]

Was the Trek the first eBike you have ridden? The first eBike I rode, I expected it to accelerate like a scooter or something. They are not like that, they are bicycles with some assist. Shift it like a bicycle, and enjoy the ride. Ride a few more bikes before discounting anything.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

The RipCurrent looks like a great bike for those who want what fat tires have to offer. Like you say, it's very much like the CCX. If off-roading is important to you, I could sure see the benefit of the wider tires. I haven't owned a fat bike so that's about all I can say.

Except for this: for what you describe, you'd be happy with either the RCS or CCX. (Usual disclaimer: problems can happen with any product. I've had none with mine. )

 

[michael mitchell]

Hi everyone!


Been lurking for a while trying to find the right e-bike to purchase. Sincerely appreciate all the amazing info here but just overwhelmed. Thought I make a post for a more granular view of specific needs. Love to get your thoughts and thanks in advance for them!

TL;DR: rented Trek Supercommuter 8+ for 30 miles commute, found it to be underwhelming in power and battery range. Thought mid-drive is better but seeing multiple posts suggesting the Juiced CrossCurrent X which looks to be a hub drive.

Context:
- 30 miles commute for work (15 there and back)
- some minor elevation but mostly flat (but routes may change depending on job in the near future; love to near-future-proof it)
- 180 lbs, 5'10ish, finding myself riding upright most of the commute (may be due to backpack with laptops)
- very few bike shops around, had to drive 30+ min to rent a Trek Supercommuter 8+ for testing (so no way to test the Juiced CC X bike)
- Found Trek rental to be not powerful enough, and hard to pedal when battery runs out or nearing the 28 mph limit (ran out during a commute, had to get a truck to pick me up)
- Took bike on hiking trail once during testing (may do it again with new purchase but consider that a once a month thing)

Want:
- Power! - Trek bike felt lacking in power when pedaling
- Battery range - longer the range the better
- Min. 28 mph - option to increase it if I can (to like 32 mph if possible to cut my commute time)
- Low maintenance - not a bike guy and lacking legit bike shops in the area
- Handles some elevation and occasional trails
- Ride like a normal bike if battery does run out/motor craps out, etc. - and don't make things harder when i exceed 28 mph manually
- (Nice to have) thumb throttle for one of those days
- (Not sure) rain-proof?

I'm intrigued by the Juiced CC X big battery & 750W motor, but read conflicting views on hub drive (in favor of mid-drive, which was what the Trek had). Confused, so love to hear your thoughts and any other bike suggestions. Budget preference: $2k - $3k but willing to spend more if it ticks all the boxes & more.
Thanks!

If you're that far away from a local bike shop, I'd suggest that you accept becoming comfortable with doing a lot of your own bike maintenance, no matter which model you buy.

You may also want to remember that these are bicycles, not motorcycles, so you'll have to pedal hard at times. Especially if you get one with a torque sensor.

Which ever model you get, get some panniers too. The ride will be MUCH more enjoyable without a heavy backpack.

Those are my opinions.

 

[ebikemom]

If you can, howzabout a weekend vacation to a nearby city where you can test-ride lots of ebikes? Would be fun, methinks.

 

[indianajo]

Something nobody has said, is that geared hub bikes pedal without drag when the battery goes dead or something else fails. There is an internal one way clutch that runs as freely as the one in a derailleur sprocket cluster. The hub weighs 10 lb more than a derailleur sprocket, but in my last unpowered ride with one the weight wasn't that noticeable.
Direct drive hubs are cheaper and more common than geared hub but drag some when unpowered. The ones with "battery regeneration" drag a lot when the battery is dead. I intend to ride 10-20 miles upowered on some of my concert/festival adventures so that drag is important to me. It may not be important to you if you can buy a 15-20 AH battery and nobody steals it for you while you are at work.
Mid drive bikes delete the multiple geared front sprocket of a mountain bike, so unpowered they are a real PI** in rough terrain. In a flat city that would not be an issue. Mid drives require more chain maintenance. For example I usually get >7000 miles out of a chain without power: a mid drive may require a new chain every 1000 miles. I do all my own maintenance, own professional Dodge chain breakers for industrial chain which I've use dozens of times, and I've never bought a bicycle chain breaker that worked. So beware.
I go 35 mph regularly downhill on an unpowered bike out in the country, but I would find that speed very scary in an urban environment. At the minimum for speed insist on a bike with disk brakes; rim brake performance deteriorates badly in the rain.
Fat tire bikes (>2.1") are IMHO only useful for parks with dunes like that in colorado or S Cal, or certain beaches with fluffy sand, not including Galveston or Panama City that have hard sand. I think the whole fat tire craze going on now is right up there with the banana seats, 18" rise handlebars, and 20" wheel bikes of the late sixties. I ride 1.75" to 2.1" tires with up to 80 lb groceries and supplies, and it holds up fine. Of course my own weight has been 150 to 200 (150 now) so I'm not pushing the tire capacity as is even on a steel frame kid bike.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

For the Trek super commuter 8+, twenty eight mph is the top speed in theory, if.... the motor is pumping 400-500 watts (peak rating) and you are also pedaling at 100-150 watts with the shoulders and head tucked in. It's doable but not to many people and not for extended period.

You can try the more powerful Stromers or the CCX where you can realistically maintain 28 mph with high capacity batteries. Either way, most people with 28 mph-capable ebikes prefer to cruise at 20-23 mph which is a good compromise between speed and battery range.

I would recommend the hub drive esp at continuous high speeds since the drive train will have longer life. On that same continuous high speed application, a mid drive will have a significantly shorter life on the drive train .

You might want to also try the Bulls Outlaw, Smartmotion Pacer, Easy Motion Nitro, Ohm, Magnum, Vintage.

There were earlier threads with similar requirements. One person decided to get the Bulls Outlaw and he was happy with it. A lot of people are happy with their Stromers, and CrossCurrent ebikes. There were some who had customer support issues with CrossCurrents but these ebikes really perform.

I settled with the Magnum Metro plus. It maxes out to 24-26 mph. What it gives away in speed, it takes back in torque at 90 NM, which can climb even a 15% incline with ease. It has crazy pickup from a dead stop, so regaining speed from intersections is a non issue (which is sometimes an issue with my more powerful BBSHD mid drive).

 

[rich c]

Something nobody has said, is that geared hub bikes pedal without drag when the battery goes dead or something else fails. There is an internal one way clutch that runs as freely as the one in a derailleur sprocket cluster. The hub weighs 10 lb more than a derailleur sprocket, but in my last unpowered ride with one the weight wasn't that noticeable.
Direct drive hubs are cheaper and more common than geared hub but drag some when unpowered. The ones with "battery regeneration" drag a lot when the battery is dead. I intend to ride 10-20 miles upowered on some of my concert/festival adventures so that drag is important to me. It may not be important to you if you can buy a 15-20 AH battery and nobody steals it for you while you are at work.
Mid drive bikes delete the multiple geared front sprocket of a mountain bike, so unpowered they are a real PI** in rough terrain. In a flat city that would not be an issue. Mid drives require more chain maintenance. For example I usually get >7000 miles out of a chain without power: a mid drive may require a new chain every 1000 miles. I do all my own maintenance, own professional Dodge chain breakers for industrial chain which I've use dozens of times, and I've never bought a bicycle chain breaker that worked. So beware.
I go 35 mph regularly downhill on an unpowered bike out in the country, but I would find that speed very scary in an urban environment. At the minimum for speed insist on a bike with disk brakes; rim brake performance deteriorates badly in the rain.
Fat tire bikes (>2.1") are IMHO only useful for parks with dunes like that in colorado or S Cal, or certain beaches with fluffy sand, not including Galveston or Panama City that have hard sand. I think the whole fat tire craze going on now is right up there with the banana seats, 18" rise handlebars, and 20" wheel bikes of the late sixties. I ride 1.75" to 2.1" tires with up to 80 lb groceries and supplies, and it holds up fine. Of course my own weight has been 150 to 200 (150 now) so I'm not pushing the tire capacity as is even on a steel frame kid bike.

If I was planning on riding 10-20 miles unpowered, I wouldn't spend the money on an eBike that weighs twice what a good traditional bike.

 

[indianajo]

If I was planning on riding 10-20 miles unpowered, I wouldn't spend the money on an eBike that weighs twice what a good traditional bike.

The 40-60 miles that comes before the 10-20 miles unpowered are what I need power for. I want to go 80 miles RT to concerts & festivals, without burning 12 hours on the saddle at my usual 9 mph. I get enough exercise on my 34 mile weekly commutes to the summer camp to keep my heart/lungs in shape. The explosive potential damage to ears of air bags in cars, and the noise of gasoline scooters, are both unacceptable to me. Leaving a $500 battery clipped to a chained up bike in a festival parking lot is a bit too much risk - I've bought a $300 15 AH battery that if stolen I could still get home in 5 hours on a geared hub bike. 18 lb battery + 10 lb hub is way below the weight of supplies I usually carry on my weekly self powered commute.

 

[RoyalFlush]

Wow thank you ALL for the amazing feedback! I'm blown away! It does sound like CCX is the way to go. Though I'm unable to test it in-person as SD is too far away, I'm inclined to trust the reviews and your feedback here.
Quick question as I'm evaluating the frame sizing: If i was to get one of those isolation/suspension seat posts, would that increase the min. seat height? If so, by how much from your experience? (basically this may change my purchase from L to a M frame size)

 

[ebikemom]

Something nobody has said, is that geared hub bikes pedal without drag when the battery goes dead or something else fails

I have a bike with a geared hub, and I do use it sometimes in "0" (no PAS) on sidewalks. There is no drag. It is a heavy bike, so it's nice that the bike isn't working against itself.

 

[ebikemom]

I have recurring concerns about the geared hub on steeper climbs

How steep are your climbs? I live in a very hilly area. Up to 15% grade hills are no problem. 20% is doable. 25% or higher? I walk the bike.

 

[rich c]

Wow thank you ALL for the amazing feedback! I'm blown away! It does sound like CCX is the way to go. Though I'm unable to test it in-person as SD is too far away, I'm inclined to trust the reviews and your feedback here.
Quick question as I'm evaluating the frame sizing: If i was to get one of those isolation/suspension seat posts, would that increase the min. seat height? If so, by how much from your experience? (basically this may change my purchase from L to a M frame size)

Depends on the manufacturer, but plan on at least 4" lost. But I don't know anyone that has the seat post slammed to the bottom. You need leg extension for efficient pedaling. Frame dimensions for larger frames are more than just vertical. The whole frame is larger, including distance between the steerer tube and seat post. Please don't guess on frame size, get fitted!

 

[Chris Hammond]

Wow thank you ALL for the amazing feedback! I'm blown away! It does sound like CCX is the way to go. Though I'm unable to test it in-person as SD is too far away, I'm inclined to trust the reviews and your feedback here.
Quick question as I'm evaluating the frame sizing: If i was to get one of those isolation/suspension seat posts, would that increase the min. seat height? If so, by how much from your experience? (basically this may change my purchase from L to a M frame size)

I purchased a large frame, I'm 5-10 with 32 inch inseam. If I had it to do over, I'd get a medium frame. Standover height is fine when I am on the bike, but the bike being heavy is not fun to swing your leg over when getting on. I usually put one leg on, start rolling, and swing a leg over while standing on the pedal.
Sizing down will also make it easier to fit a suspension post, although my seat tube has at least 7 inches between the clamp and seat bottom, so I doubt it will be an issue either way.