2023 SuperLight R&M: Fantasy thread

[Mike Owen]

Heft. Tank. Handful. SUV. I hear those words time and again in R&M conversations.

Yeah, but. All those kilos translate into a comfortable, solid and assured ride: great!

Great if your terrain is smooth asphalt, flat or rolling. Great if you’re relatively active, relatively not ancient, relatively macho. Not so great if you’re outside that demographic. Also eBikes have a big appeal to folk outside that slightly macho male grouping.

As we eagerly anticipate the 2021 range in a few weeks, how about a fantasy look forward to what Markus, Heiko and the gang might reveal to us salivating eBikers in a few years time.

I’d argue that a few R&M models which go off in an ultimate Super Lightweight direction would be a good thing. Nimble to ride (nimble is fun), easy to man-handle in every scenario, increased range, appealing to a wider demographic. And in time that race for lightness might rub off across the whole R&M range.

I used to love my Desktop. Then I loved my Laptop. Now I love my iPad Air. Weight matters.

A few thoughts to break the heft mould:

1. Modular batteries. Pack just the right amount of energy you need that day. <300Wh... >1000Wh
2. Lighter (weaker!) motor. But perhaps Bosch already approaching a sweet spot.
3. Featherweight component materials. Titanium or composites. Swing arm, rear and front racks etc.
4. Electronic security instead of heavy metal.

How would you like the weight thing to develop? Go the Specialized SL route? Echo the Titanium Brompton? Or maybe you’re super happy to pedal SUVs for ever and a day!

 

[Squaxor]

I'd love to have the range of the Superdelite, but weigh a lot less the 32.5K. I'm sure the frame could be made lighter, but no doubt it would cost a lot more money. Doesn't it always. Maybe R&M should release a bicycle that is the equivalent to the Honda Goldwing? Have a built-in microwave, heater, fridge.... ?

 

[hkat]

I have a feeling Specialized will get to lightweight faster than R&M unfortunately.

 

[SteveBorough]

Composite racks and in-handlebar wiring get my vote!

 

[Mike Owen]

I have a feeling Specialized will get to lightweight faster than R&M unfortunately.

Already there! I completely agree. My brother’s 2020 Specialized Turbo Levo SL is an awesome bike. Compared to my 2020 Delite Rohloff GX:

1. both full sus aluminium frames, tick.
2. same Fox Float suspension, tick.
3. similar energy capacity, 320Wh + 160Wh bottle cage extender = 480Wh usable... versus 450Wh usable from the Delite 500Wh Powertube (500 - 10% for Rohloff/Lights reserve), tick Levo SL.
4. same dropper post, tick.
5. Torque 35Nm v 85Nm, tick Delite (but it really needs it with all that heft).
6. 20.4kg Levo SL (incl 160Wh extender), 28.8kg Delite E14 (plus front rack ? kg).

Okay, okay, Delite is equipped trekking bike, Levo SL stripped eMTB. But do lights, gear hub, mudguards, rear carrier really have to add so much extra weight?

Levo SL is a really nimble, fun machine and feels completely like a non assisted bike with the wind behind you. And has flexibility to go 1kg lighter without range extender.

That extra Delite weight isn’t all down to the Rohloff either. R&M website stats:
Delite Mountain Rohloff 25.8kg
Delite Mountain derailleur 25.3kg

(480Wh Levo SL derailleur 20.4kg, just sayin’)


Sounds like I’m moaning about my R&M. I most definitely aren’t. It’s a wonderful ride. I love it.

R&M are real innovators, leaders in eBikes. I just hope they continue to innovate in weight saving. Otherwise @Squaxor is right, may as well throw in the microwave. Heavens, that’s the way the dumb car industry has gone: bigger batteries, bigger SUVs... ridiculous.

 

[Jay Kay]

The Levo is a really nice bike - unfortunately it has no belt option so it is a pass from me. I will strip my carrier/mud guards/kickstand off In the meantime and I will ride a bit further, more often and loose 5kg and kill 2 birds with one stone

 

[Mike Owen]

The Levo is a really nice bike - unfortunately it has no belt option so it is a pass from me. I will strip my carrier/mud guards/kickstand off In the meantime and I will ride a bit further, more often and loose 5kg and kill 2 birds with one stone

Jay, I think, for many the belt is a massive draw to R&M. Plus the suspension. Completely agree with you.

Innovation marches on and hopefully more belt + suspension bikes appear. The Tern GSD for 2021 launched this week... with a belt, Rohloff and full suspension!

All it would take is a major player to intro a belt/suspension range and I really think stuff would get shaken up.

 

[Jay Kay]

I hope so Mike. Major players in this space would speed innovation up for sure, and increase adoption. I feel however that, except for ‘proper’ mountain bikes where weight makes a difference to the ride, innovation is going to focus on motor, gearing and battery efficiency, with reduction in weight further down the list.

Great the Tern has belt + Bosch but I see it weighs in at 37kg!

There must be some magical formula for weightower ratio, where lighter bikes mean they can have smaller batteries and still go the same distance.

A 20kg Superdelight would be my dream bike, so lets hope weight reduction does become one of the R&M‘s innovation pillars.

 

[Law]

If RM goes light, its going CF, and it will be a lot more $$. CF has its own vibration and sound issues as well.

All manufacturers are bleeding us on the battery tech. Where is tesla on this matter?

I say answer is we all just lose 6 kilos.....

 

[Mr. Coffee]

There are various rumblings of "light metal" or "dual-phased steel" bike frames that will be much lighter than existing aluminum frames, be easier to form into the shapes you need for an e-bike (square "tubes"), and have the excellent flex and vibration-damping properties of steel.

Will New Hi-Tech Steel Grade Revolutionize Frame Production in Europe?

DUISBURG, Germany – Is there a solution for the major problem that the rocketing e-bike sales in Europe is facing? That problem is in the limited availability of aluminum frames. Production in Europe has to increase; and fast. But starting (robotized) production of alloy frames is complicated...

www.bike-eu.com

Thyssenkrupp Steelworks to revolutionize bike manufacture in lightweight steel

New automated manufacturing tech from thyssenkrupp Steelworks promises lighter steel bike frames that rival carbon in ride quality & design flexibility!

bikerumor.com

 

[webcurl]

I remember hearing/reading somewhere that R&M really don't like the idea of seeing any of their bikes/frames in rubbish tips/piles so they make them a bit more heavy duty to last longer. There's a trade-off when trying to design for weight.
Mind you i live very close to the sea and the paintwork on mine worries me a little in regards to corrosion

 

[hkat]

R&M is pretty tied to the Bosch system, so if you want R&M to provide something lightweight look to Bosch and see what they are going to annouce in the future and if they will have lighter motors, lighter and smaller batteries. Bosch components can however be used by many manufacturers so if they ever get there other brands will also start offering something similar and lightweight. R&M will probably just position themselves to be the nicest one in that bunch but nothing they do will be particularly exclusive, just nicer. So long as they are tied to Bosch look to Bosch to see what they are announcing in the next few years and extrapolate from there for R&M.

 

[Pavel57]

I selected a R&M Multicharger because I wanted a heavy bike. I get loads-o-exercise peddling this big beast and when I feel spent, I kick in the motor and enjoy the assistance.

 

[Rider777]

I’ve ridden my 2020 Delite for almost 4K miles now.
Yes it’s heavy (relatively speaking) but ......what a nice ride. Solid.
About 200 miles ago I decided to try tubeless on my Schwalbe Super Motos ( Not the “x”) And I‘ll tell ya the handling has noticeably improved.....not that I was that unhappy with it pre tubeless. Turn in and out is noticeably sharper and more accurate than before.
I have tried many tire pressure combinations and find that 40psi front with 50psi rear works the best on the paved dedicated bike trails that I ride here near Las Vegas, NV.
So...I’m happy with the current weight of the bike as the overall package is comfortable....kinda like people as they get older . .
YMMV

 

[Pavel57]

I’ve ridden my 2020 Delite for almost 4K miles now.
Yes it’s heavy (relatively speaking) but ......what a nice ride. Solid.
About 200 miles ago I decided to try tubeless on my Schwalbe Super Motos ( Not the “x”) And I‘ll tell ya the handling has noticeably improved.....not that I was that unhappy with it pre tubeless. Turn in and out is noticeably sharper and more accurate than before.
I have tried many tire pressure combinations and find that 40psi front with 50psi rear works the best on the paved dedicated bike trails that I ride here near Las Vegas, NV.
So...I’m happy with the current weight of the bike as the overall package is comfortable....kinda like people as they get older . .
YMMV

Thanks for this info. If and when I have to replace tires I will look into tubeless. Tighter handling would be much appreciated.

 

[Alaskan]

My Cannondale Topstone Carbon Neo 3 weighs a hefty 39 lbs. It has a Bosch gen 4, performance Speed Motor with a 500 watt power tube in the downtube. It has a Lefty Carbon front suspension fork and a KinPin rear "suspension" that has 30mm of flex. It does not have fenders, kickstand or rack. It has gravel drop handle bars with a shallow 105mm drop. At 70 years old and 205 lbs, the modified drop position is quite comfortable. With a Kinekt Body Float seat post and 47mm WTB Byway Tubeless tires, it is a way more comfortable than one would expect on a stripped down, carbon framed, drop handlebar bike.

If this bike has taught me anything in its contrast to my 2018 Delite Mountain, which has a delimited CX motor, it is that weight (75 lb.) and upright ride position saps speed off the bike and substantially reduces range. Riding the Neo in Eco and using Tour for climbing hills, gives me a similar ride and speed profile as EMTB on a CX. And I get a verified range of over 80 miles if I ride in all Eco, 55 miles in Tour. In sport mode, I can sustain 25-27 mph on flat ground with a cadence of 70 rpm.

The primary advantage offered by the R&M is the notably superior comfort, especially with the Fox suspension and the ability to haul a good amount of cargo.

Each bike answers a different set of needs, but for everyday fun, athletic or group rides I always seems to grab the lighter, faster, nimbler bike.

 

[RMK!]

Yes @Alaskan, horses for courses ...

Re the "superlight" thread topic, I had very stealthy 32 lb Specialized Turbo Creo setup as a gravel bike (tubeless tires) and found the ride unacceptably harsh. Like you, I added the Kinekt 2.1 suspension seatpost to go along with the Creo's anemic Future Shock headtube shock absorber. The bike performed beautifully on smooth surfaces but I found it un-rideable on any but smoothest roads/trails. I wanted a go just about anywhere ebike and although I don't care for the term, Adventure Bike seems the most apt description. For that use case, the Creo just wasn't cutting it for me.

Is the Delite GX heavier, sure by 20+ lbs but that also equates to stable and comfortable. I have described the GX as "nimble" but is it as nimble as the Creo? On smooth surfaces no, but on anything else, you betcha. The Bosch motor/battery combo simply destroys the Specialized in the all important torque category and I find it quieter (lower frequency noise?). The battery system on the GX is much better than the fixed downtube battery of the Creo and the Creo's "range extender" add on bottle cage battery is frankly, not worth a damn. The derailleur drivetrain on the Specialized is fine but the Rohloff E14 is a magical gear changing system when operated correctly. That means ALWAYS pause pedaling while shifting and it is my riding mantra. The R&M isn't a down hill mountain bike but it is a great all around bike that is equally at home on the road/trail (no black diamond mountain biking for me).

After my rest ride on the R&M GX, I sold the Specialized Turbo Creo. I won't be looking back and have little to no interest in an R&M ultralight. Too many snags ...

 

[Alanzo]

My Cannondale Topstone Carbon Neo 3 weighs a hefty 39 lbs. It has a Bosch gen 4, performance Speed Motor with a 500 watt power tube in the downtube. It has a Lefty Carbon front suspension fork and a KinPin rear "suspension" that has 30mm of flex. It does not have fenders, kickstand or rack. It has gravel drop handle bars with a shallow 105mm drop. At 70 years old and 205 lbs, the modified drop position is quite comfortable. With a Kinekt Body Float seat post and 47mm WTB Byway Tubeless tires, it is a way more comfortable than one would expect on a stripped down, carbon framed, drop handlebar bike.

If this bike has taught me anything in its contrast to my 2018 Delite Mountain, which has a delimited CX motor, it is that weight (75 lb.) and upright ride position saps speed off the bike and substantially reduces range. Riding the Neo in Eco and using Tour for climbing hills, gives me a similar ride and speed profile as EMTB on a CX. And I get a verified range of over 80 miles if I ride in all Eco, 55 miles in Tour. In sport mode, I can sustain 25-27 mph on flat ground with a cadence of 70 rpm.

The primary advantage offered by the R&M is the notably superior comfort, especially with the Fox suspension and the ability to haul a good amount of cargo.

Each bike answers a different set of needs, but for everyday fun, athletic or group rides I always seems to grab the lighter, faster, nimbler bike.

View attachment 84383

Nice bike. I'd love to ride that one. Very cool with the offset fork.

I have this thought with tires and rolling resistance being a significant factor in speed of an ebike. I have tried Razor Rock, G-One and Super Moto X tires. I get approximatley 50 mi in turbo with Super Moto X. I cannot get the same mile range with Razor Rock or G-One. Feels easier to spin a higher cadence with Super Moto X. The tires have Tannus armour inserts. I do not know if Tannus is a positive or neative factor with rolling resistance

I wish there was a slick 650B in 2.4 width.
Wondering if a slightly higher average and more range is possible with slick tires. I have not found any tire with less tread than the Super Moto X in 650B.

 

[webcurl]

What happens when you have a moderate crash/spill with these ultralight ebikes, do you then have to say goodbye to the equivelent of 3/4 of the cost of the thing in repairs/new frame?

 

[JVBulman]

What happens when you have a moderate crash/spill with these ultralight ebikes, do you then have to say goodbye to the equivelent of 3/4 of the cost of the thing in repairs/new frame?

Depends on the nature of the crash. Carbon is generally designed to be strong in a single direction, so if it gets impacted perpendicular to that plane, it's often compromised. That said, carbon repair has come a long way, and it can be fixed in some cases.

Another plus is that it doesn't typically experience sudden "shearing" failure like aluminum can - barring a serious impact that outright breaks it, you'll typically see/hear some pretty noticeable warning signs that it's been compromised before it completely fails.