What have you learned from your e-bike experiences?

[Rás Cnoic]

Well, it certainly is inexcusable for the bikes to stop working with their website down, if that’s what happened. Jeez.

I read something on the (current) site that you don’t need to run the app (at least with the new bikes?).

Oh it was a classic start up collapse. Was surprised they re emerged. Not sure who is running the show & I don't know the nitty gritty of how they are doing.

 

[Chazmo]

Oh it was a classic start up collapse. Was surprised they re emerged. Not sure who is running the show & I don't know the nitty gritty of how they are doing.

Totally know that story, Ràs… Juiced was around for 15 years before they imploded. Having said that, my bike was not prevented from working. I think that if the bikes became unrideable, that’s a fatally-flawed security system. Unbelievable.

 

[mschwett]

Well, it certainly is inexcusable for the bikes to stop working with their website down, if that’s what happened. Jeez.

I read something on the (current) site that you don’t need to run the app (at least with the new bikes?).

no, that's not what happened. the bike does not need the app or the website, at least mine never did. i've had it for close to 5 years and never use the website (not sure what it does other than initial registration?) and only use the app when i use the kicklock because i forgot the button sequence to unlock it otherwise. the app still works fine and has worked fine through the bankruptcy etc. there was also a third party app, not sure if it still works but i know some of the features of it (like changing the speed limit lol) were cut off by later bike firmwares. i haven't touched mine in years.

that said - YES - the founders s*it the bed and a decent number of people got screwed out of deposits. it can be hard to get parts although there are SO many of these bikes out there that it's not all that different from a less proprietary bike with uncommon parts from shimano or sram or microshift after 5-10 years.

there were a number of things about their model, initially, that were REALLY GREAT. the service at our local vanmoof shop was top notch. appointments by mobile app, specific drop off times, fast service, all parts on hand, etc. the built in kick lock is a great feature. the built in lighting is sleek and good enough for city use. the IGH with automatic shifting makes start and stop in the city seamless. the "boost' button is a clever workaround the throttle issue - it's not a throttle because it only works when you're already pedaling. it's basically the equivalent of switching a specialized bike from eco to turbo momentarily, which nobody would accuse of being against the class rules. the displays built into the top tube or now the bars are super sleek compared to the usual barely-masked-third-party screens with a bunch of wires going out of them. compare the number of cables at the front end of a VM to just about any other consumer level e-bike. it's night and day! and the price point was pretty good for all that with an IGH.

however, they made SERIOUS engineering mistakes in the X3/S3 generation that basically doomed them. they had to replace major components of a significant portion of the bikes multiple times (mine included) due to either design or engineering failures in the electronic shifter and possibly other components. doing that under warranty with expensive labor (their biggest service centers were in NYC and SF) at the same time as doing the engineering and tooling for the next generation of bikes. this led to the usual over-leveraging, debt, and the vicious spiral of an overly ambitious startup. many customers got hosed.

i would never buy one again - but if someone else designed and sold a similar bike, i totally would. they're still the most common single type of ebike i see around here, and almost everyone still loves theirs.

 

[mschwett]

i'll just reiterate. i see a dozen or more vanmoofs every day, and have ridden mine nearly every day for five years or so, and i've never met or heard of anyone whose bike just "stopped working" because of some issue with the bankruptcy, van moof's servers, the app, anything. it's just a bike with electronics, the same as any e-bike, and it absolutely does NOT need to connect to your phone or the internet or some proprietary network to function as a bike.

i suppose in theory if the app stopped working and you locked it and didn't remember the unlock sequence it might happen? or if you were updating the firmware and that failed during the dark period?

 

[mschwett]

i think someday the b-school case study of vanmoof will be pretty much directly laid at the feet of whoever designed this thing and the logic by which it operates, or the production line/process that made it :

it's purpose is to rotate the gear selection ring of a totally standard sturmey archer 4 speed IGH. the little motor in it turns the splined ring (shown removed at top left) which shifts the IGH. the bike's controller directs it to change positions based on speed or manual input of the bike's buttons.

i wouldn't be surprised if as many as 25% of these in the initial S3/X3 production cycles failed, and many of the replacements failed, and then failed again. it's not a part that deals with high torque (all it does is turn the selector ring 22.5 degrees at a time, from 0 to 90 on the hub) nor does it see any impact, movement relative to the hub, etc. however, the IGH it's attached to does see load, and while i don't know for sure i imagine the result of the gear selector being in the wrong place at the wrong time under load is not so great for the IGH. the first bike i had just didn't shift out of first after a few rides. replaced and it was fine for a while. then i was bombing down a hill in fourth, probably going 35+ and pedaling hard, and the IGH slipped and never engaged beyond 1st again. others had all kinds of different stories about it failing in various ways, cycling through the gears for no reason, etc. it should never have been designed to shift automatically without some knowledge of load (which becomes tricky with a hub drive, the initial design and maybe the current ones don't have a torque sensor!). i think i also had to have the whole electronics cartridge (they put everything together in one part, including the screen, speaker, switches, controller, etc) replaced once or twice, so there may be a similar story there but it was really the e-shifter and IGH that put them in the huge hole from a consumer perspective.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

no, that's not what happened. the bike does not need the app or the website, at least mine never did. i've had it for close to 5 years and never use the website (not sure what it does other than initial registration?) and only use the app when i use the kicklock because i forgot the button sequence to unlock it otherwise. the app still works fine and has worked fine through the bankruptcy etc. there was also a third party app, not sure if it still works but i know some of the features of it (like changing the speed limit lol) were cut off by later bike firmwares. i haven't touched mine in years.

that said - YES - the founders s*it the bed and a decent number of people got screwed out of deposits. it can be hard to get parts although there are SO many of these bikes out there that it's not all that different from a less proprietary bike with uncommon parts from shimano or sram or microshift after 5-10 years.

there were a number of things about their model, initially, that were REALLY GREAT. the service at our local vanmoof shop was top notch. appointments by mobile app, specific drop off times, fast service, all parts on hand, etc. the built in kick lock is a great feature. the built in lighting is sleek and good enough for city use. the IGH with automatic shifting makes start and stop in the city seamless. the "boost' button is a clever workaround the throttle issue - it's not a throttle because it only works when you're already pedaling. it's basically the equivalent of switching a specialized bike from eco to turbo momentarily, which nobody would accuse of being against the class rules. the displays built into the top tube or now the bars are super sleek compared to the usual barely-masked-third-party screens with a bunch of wires going out of them. compare the number of cables at the front end of a VM to just about any other consumer level e-bike. it's night and day! and the price point was pretty good for all that with an IGH.

however, they made SERIOUS engineering mistakes in the X3/S3 generation that basically doomed them. they had to replace major components of a significant portion of the bikes multiple times (mine included) due to either design or engineering failures in the electronic shifter and possibly other components. doing that under warranty with expensive labor (their biggest service centers were in NYC and SF) at the same time as doing the engineering and tooling for the next generation of bikes. this led to the usual over-leveraging, debt, and the vicious spiral of an overly ambitious startup. many customers got hosed.

i would never buy one again - but if someone else designed and sold a similar bike, i totally would. they're still the most common single type of ebike i see around here, and almost everyone still loves theirs.

Fascinating hearing all that and really cool to see your work on it!

Did the Belgian Cowboy bikes ever make it to the US? They always seemed a Van Moof rival, but seemed to make more sensible component decisions, less proprietary, used gates drive rather than just slapping a plastic chain guard to hide the chain etc:

Cowboy Classic - The Connected Electric Bike (United Kingdom)

Cowboy Classic is the ultimate connected e-bike with an active, sporty ride position, AdaptivePower, and theft & safety features. (United Kingdom)

uk.cowboy.com

 

[Chazmo]

i'll just reiterate. i see a dozen or more vanmoofs every day, and have ridden mine nearly every day for five years or so, and i've never met or heard of anyone whose bike just "stopped working" because of some issue with the bankruptcy, van moof's servers, the app, anything. it's just a bike with electronics, the same as any e-bike, and it absolutely does NOT need to connect to your phone or the internet or some proprietary network to function as a bike.

i suppose in theory if the app stopped working and you locked it and didn't remember the unlock sequence it might happen? or if you were updating the firmware and that failed during the dark period?

Thanks for clarifying. Obviously, I was just reacting to incorrect information / rumor coming from someone.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Thanks for clarifying. Obviously, I was just reacting to incorrect information / rumor coming from someone.

You mean the know_it_all... doesn't?

 

[Gionnirocket]

oh, it’s nothing special - a much maligned vanmoof. it spent most of its life with my younger daughter on the back, many great miles

she outgrew it and now propels herself.



View attachment 199562View attachment 199564
the two tone metallic grey areas are a spray paint job to cover the damage when some years ago a thief with an angle grinder went to town on an abus lock, not being particularly careful about the bike. lots of very deep scratches and grooves. sanded filled and sanded and primed and painted. with the IGH and kick-lock it’s very practical for errands - and the front hub makes it all wheel drive

the part on the top tube is the same color as the bottom, not sure why it looks so different lol.

Love the color scheme and I've been looking for someone to do something similar to a frame for me.

Seems talented powder coating is a bit of a rarity and fades and metallic clear coats requires a bit of experience.
Looks damn easy in the video

 

[mschwett]

Fascinating hearing all that and really cool to see your work on it!

Did the Belgian Cowboy bikes ever make it to the US? They always seemed a Van Moof rival, but seemed to make more sensible component decisions, less proprietary, used gates drive rather than just slapping a plastic chain guard to hide the chain etc:

Cowboy Classic - The Connected Electric Bike (United Kingdom)

Cowboy Classic is the ultimate connected e-bike with an active, sporty ride position, AdaptivePower, and theft & safety features. (United Kingdom)

uk.cowboy.com

they have not yet - although they do (again) say coming soon.

i never liked their seat-tube battery design, otherwise they seem like nice bikes!

 

[mschwett]

Love the color scheme and I've been looking for someone to do something similar to a frame for me.

Seems talented powder coating is a bit of a rarity and fades and metallic clear coats requires a bit of experience.
Looks damn easy in the video

dude, painting is SUCH a (*%$#*_(%@#%*@$. it looks easy and never is, no matter how much you prep and get set up, it just never works out quite the way it would for a pro.

i used some metallic automotive paint, did lots of sanding and many thin coats of primer, then more sanding, and tons of masking, and it's still pretty janky in a few spots. bikes are hard to mask, and i didn't take anything apart. but it's a beater, pretty much, so i'm good with it. the most annoying thing is that the edges show the light grey primer. i assume i would have had to unmask after priming and remask with just a tiny bit of overlap so the color hit the "edges" of the thickness of the primer!?!?

i would love to do a full custom bike, 29 front, 27.5 rear, integral rear rack (sort of a mini cargo thing) steel or titanium, rohloff, mid-drive, belt, bottle battery behind the seatpost, trick paint job with everything including the bars, seatpost, etc painted. i had one designed and some quotes from framebuilders but just been too busy.

 

[kevinmccune]

Yesterday I made a house call to a referral at a senior trailer park to help with the botched assembly of an adult eTrike. I ended up spending all day there as word of mouth spread with bikes and trikes coming out of the woodwork. One thing I have learned is that if you really treat someone right, they will tell their friends. Some of the eTrikes come in a box that is just parts that is 2.5 feet by 2.5 feet by 10 inches. The people dispatched to assemble them are only qualified for Ikea.

some of that Ikea stuff is ambigous,"said panel doesn't actually go where you think it should"

 

[kevinmccune]

What I learned:

• Purchase the highest quality bike you can afford from a storied, reputable manufacturer. You deserve the best.
• Stay away from integrated proprietary electronics and software systems.
• Purchase a bike that can be serviced locally, or DIY, with a robust decentralised parts inventory stream.
• You deserve a rear suspension (front too). Not a suspension seat post. There is no comparison.
• Wear elbow pads and knee pads along with your helmet. There's a reason that NHTSA keeps stats on bike fatalities.
• 
  
• Go Tubeless.
• Don't drink more than two beers before you ride.

my wife's best friend brother had a school bus run over him in Florida after a stroke he took to riding a bike( cross country in events as well") he was fully equipped the woman bus driver who ran him over was at fault,he is now in rehab,they said he may lose his leg and he has hip problems,he was very fit please say a prayer for him his name was Alex Anderson,he had been biking successfully for 30 years.Above all be careful out there,someone will be inattentive enough to do you harm.

 

[kevinmccune]

MrClortho, as a mountain biker you know this, but one thing I learned about riding faraway rail trails in the early morning. The air is clear and cool. The pine smells amazing. The damn rest rooms in the trail stops are locked. What a man might do for a mere scrap of toilet paper.

plug yourself up with cheese and muesli the night before!

 

[Gionnirocket]

dude, painting is SUCH a (*%$#*_(%@#%*@$. it looks easy and never is, no matter how much you prep and get set up, it just never works out quite the way it would for a pro.

Believe me I know!

i used some metallic automotive paint, did lots of sanding and many thin coats of primer, then more sanding, and tons of masking, and it's still pretty janky in a few spots. bikes are hard to mask, and i didn't take anything apart. but it's a beater, pretty much, so i'm good with it. the most annoying thing is that the edges show the light grey primer. i assume i would have had to unmask after priming and remask with just a tiny bit of overlap so the color hit the "edges" of the thickness of the primer!?!?

i would love to do a full custom bike, 29 front, 27.5 rear, integral rear rack (sort of a mini cargo thing) steel or titanium, rohloff, mid-drive, belt, bottle battery behind the seatpost, trick paint job with everything including the bars, seatpost, etc painted. i had one designed and some quotes from framebuilders but just been too busy.

I called every bike shop in the area as well as automotive paint shops and no one was interested in doing it. Last fall I gave in and tried to do it myself but the mistake I made was using spray paint in cans and though it looked pretty good to the average person... It was obvious to me that it wasn't professional.
It's a three color fade though the difference from Silver to Grey is hard to see in the photo.

I was going to let it dry a month and then buff it out to see if it was usable but then in handling it, it slipped my carpal tunnel hands and got a nice scratch... So I just put it aside for the winter.
Now trying to find a powder coating shop which hadn't occurred to me earlier... They all seem competent to do a single color but fades and metallics, especially on the clear requires experience. Seems the variations in powder chemical and size of metallic flake require very precise tweaking of the equipment voltages used during spraying or it doesn't lay flat. The layer thickness is critical as well. So far the shops I've spoken to don't give me the impression that they are up to the task.
Not sure if I want to give it another try with better paint especially since my carpal tunnel has been on fire as of late.

We'll get there eventually. . .

 

[mschwett]

Believe me I know!

I called every bike shop in the area as well as automotive paint shops and no one was interested in doing it. Last fall I gave in and tried to do it myself but the mistake I made was using spray paint in cans and though it looked pretty good to the average person... It was obvious to me that it wasn't professional.
It's a three color fade though the difference from Silver to Grey is hard to see in the photo.
View attachment 199602


I was going to let it dry a month and then buff it out to see if it was usable but then in handling it, it slipped my carpal tunnel hands and got a nice scratch... So I just put it aside for the winter.
Now trying to find a powder coating shop which hadn't occurred to me earlier... They all seem competent to do a single color but fades and metallics, especially on the clear requires experience. Seems the variations in powder chemical and size of metallic flake require very precise tweaking of the equipment voltages used during spraying or it doesn't lay flat. The layer thickness is critical as well. So far the shops I've spoken to don't give me the impression that they are up to the task.
Not sure if I want to give it another try with better paint especially since my carpal tunnel has been on fire as of late.

We'll get there eventually. . .

that'll be sweet!! in the photo it doesn't look like it gets quite dark enough towards the pivot, but the gloss looks great and i'd totally ride it. impressive for home sprayed.

 

[Gionnirocket]

that'll be sweet!! in the photo it doesn't look like it gets quite dark enough towards the pivot, but the gloss looks great and i'd totally ride it. impressive for home sprayed.

Thanks!
It was more than likely acceptable before I dropped and scratched it... I still struggle with leaving well enough alone.
The pivot and motor mount is as dark as the rear triangle. What your seeing is the gloss you like. Look at the top edges of the rear triangle and you'll see the same reflective wash out. I believe the light was in front of me that time of the day. Also reducing the photo size to EBR took some detail and it actually looks better (or did) in person.
Anywho... Now it needs to be refinished by either powder coating or another coat of paint by me as wet sanding out the scratch went across two colors.

edit: my trick for getting a nice gloss finish is to put the last coat on thicker by moving slower or quickly double layering. I typically wait as long as possible so that the thinner under coats have dried as much as possible not trapping solvent. You also have to be very conscious of runs so patience and not going overboard is crucial.
That said... Damn I wish I had a spray booth and proper lighting cause it's as you say... Painting is a son_na_ma_§&$@%% And goes double without setup/work environment being perfect.

 

[Hewholaughslast]

I am knocking on the door to half a century old and with a used up body from many, many crashes and injuries from motorcycles and mountain bikes, I was struggling in fitness and pain on my mtb. I just could not get to the fitness level I wanted to really enjoy the sport like I did in my 30s, and it was becoming more of a chore than a love. I spent a year doing two training rides and one longer ride a week on my mtb and was barely making progress. I got to where I could ride about 8 miles of moderately difficult single track trails at a time but was seriously cooked to the point of struggling to drive home. My left knee could use a replacement and with some other minor health issues, I am not supposed to let my heart rate get into the 170s anymore. This is a restriction when I have to stop and rest due to the heart rate and fatigue.

My wife finally convinced me to look into a e-mtb and after some test rides, I was hooked. I picked up a Trek Rail 7 emtb and have been hitting the trails for over a month. Here is what I am learning.

• Perception: In the past, I would be lying if I saw an emtb on the trail that didn’t give me pause and a slight head shake, so I get the prejudice. Some purist and many riders are not fan of them and see them as cheating. Others are happy ebikes are growing the sport and folks that would not normally be out on the trails, are enjoying them. I have experienced the glances and head shakes but have also found that after I give respect to those on manual bikes, I have gotten a warm reception.
• Weight: My carbon frame mtb weighs 26lbs and my emtb weighs 53lbs. I thought this would be a problem but was very happy to find the Rail handles quite well on the tight trails and its weight has become a non-issue because the pedal assistance more than makes up for it most of the time. Overall, the trade off has been well worth it for me, and I ride some tight, rooted, forest trails. I have found I actually enjoy the more stable feeling of the emtb over the twitchiness of my carbon bike. I also wreck less on the emtb because the assistance has gotten me out of trouble a few times.
• Power vs Wight and Battery Life: When test riding emtbs, I had planned on going with a lighter, less powerful version so it was more like a traditional mtb but with a little assistance. I quickly embraced the more powerful motor and larger battery as the overall experience was significantly more enjoyable for me. According to the application, I am using in the range of 85-130wh of power on my trail rides. This should translate into about 4-5 hours of hard use on the trails or maybe about 40 miles. On easy bike paths in eco mode, I would expect to get a good 60 miles or more, but I want to test that theory.
• Fitness: My first argument against the emtb was that it would make it too easy, but again, I was struggling with my fitness. I have found I ride at least twice as far and and long on the emtb, my heart rate hovers around 140bpm, I have to pedal to get assistance (no throttle), and feel like I get a great workout. It isn’t as extreme and punishing, but is a good, solid full body workout I can feel and of a longer duration. Other than the extremist, I feel like on a emtb (maybe not a commuter type ebike) that the fitness loss has become a gain for me. Because I am not destroying my body so much, I seem to be making gains and loosing a little weight in the process. I ride in groups sometimes and there are a few that are using throttle type ebikes on the easy paths and not hardly pedaling…that is a different story all together.
• Fun: No question here…my emtb is much more fun. I rode my standard mtb yesterday and it confirmed how much more I enjoy the emtb.

Well, I am officially early retirement age this year and had been walking about four miles a week at the park. My spine is a mess from my cervical to my lumbar spine. I blew another cervical disc last Fall while painting the ceilings in the house. I recently pulled out my 38 year old 3-speed Dahon and finally put new tires on it. Cardio, cardio, cardio! Wow! I had forgotten about how gravity going up a couple of the hills on my five mile route that I did twice a visit, twice a week, would put a good load on the old blood pumper. I had to zigzag the biggest hill to use gravity to help get up to the top. I then tried a six speed folding bicycle with some success but that one hill was still too much. I finally decided to roll the dice on an inexpensive Class 2 entry level Ebike and it was an answer to my prayers. Instead of two five mile laps at the park, I do two seven mile legs from my home to the park and park to my home twice a week. That one hill is no longer my archnemesis and I only use the pedal assist for about 10% of my ride so the battery is still reading full after 28 miles. Rock on, E-bikers, Rock on!