Ebike touring recommendations 120 km a day range with a 150 kg (bike+ rider luggage) and 750-800 wh battery or 2 batteries 750-800 wh batteries

[warek437]

Ebike touring recommendations 120 km a day range with a 150 kg (bike+ rider luggage) and 750-800 wh battery or 2 batteries 750-800 wh batteries.

My first choice is Riese and Muller Charger 5, chain and cassette if it has the range. It is expensive but in my price range. My second choice appears to be Focus Aventura 2. Other bike brands for sale in Australia include Kalkhoff, Orbea, Specialized, Trek, Riese and Muller, Moustache, Cannondale, Cube.
Would a single battery be enough?

Background

I am in Australia and have a 2018-year, Gazelle City Zen bike. Bosch performance line motor with 500 WH power tube battery. It has 10 speed cassette and a 15-tooth single cog on motor. Currently I use it on the rail trails and often tow a 27 kg dog for trips up to 25 kms. It has been great to ride, very stable and comfortable. Now the battery life has a range of less than 70 km when unladen and using the two lower power levels and riding on fairly easy terrain. I am a heavy rider and weigh about 106 kg and am 185 CMS tall. The bike has a travelled 6000 km since new. A second battery is an option but bike is rated to 130 kgs, including bike rider and luggage. It seems very strong and well built and would probably cope with the excess weight but if there are other more suitable bikes then I am happy to upgrade.

I am planning to do some 4-7 day Ebike tours later this year and want to be have a daily range of 120km+ I will stay in motels and pubs and will not need to carry much luggage. Usually, I would not ride 100 km+ per day with luggage, but I am a member of a long-distance cycling club, and due to age and health issues I am unable to ride my normal non Ebike fast enough and long enough to join the group rides. There are some ride options now where the administration is allowing a social ride component as part of the long-distance rides and multi day tours. I would enjoy being involved even though I would not officially finish the ride I would be covered by my member ride insurance

I will take a pair of panniers and expect that with clothes, food, few tools and spares, battery charger, I guess equipment/luggage will weigh 15 kgs plus weight of rider. In theory I am thinking I want a bike that is rated to 150-160 kg that is good to ride. Rides will be on sealed minor roads and smooth gravel rail trails and bike paths. I know the RM bikes have models rated at 160kg and the Focus Aventura 2 is rated at 150kg

Thanks for any long distance Ebike recommendations?

 

[Aushiker]

I currently do mainly off-bitumen bikepacking rides with my Riese and Müller SuperCharger GT with a Rohloff IGH. I have no concerns riding 120 km on a charge, and in fact generally set my safety margin at 150 km. With hindsight and now experience of eBikes and well @Stefan Mikes endless advocacy for Specialized bikes , if I were in the market today for a new touring bike, I would seriously consider a Specialized Turbo Creo Comp 2 E5 (note that I have a preference for drop-bar bikes) with suitable modifications including a rear rack, a Bike Bag Dude frame bag, Orlieb Fork Packs or similar, 700 x 47c tyres and two range extender batteries (the framebag is custom made so would have it made to accomodate the mounted batteries)

Alternatively, a Specialised Turbo Vado SL 2 5.00, similarly specced to the Creo, would also be on my short list.

As an aside, if a second-hand Riese and Müller SuperCharger GT with a Rohloff IGH 53 cm (done approximately 2,275 km) appeals, there is one in Perth that would be happy to find a new owner

 

[Base]

it depends on what's available there. I was thinking in the direction of for example Tout-Terrain e-xplorer, idworx oPinion ET, Santos traveler+ or Koga e-worldtraveller. depending on your riding style these would fit the bill (besides the R&M) for the brands with which I've worked in the bicycle travel shops I've worked in.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

it depends on what's available there

Did you check it before you wrote your post? Why do you think R&M is so popular in Australia? Have you checked why Specialized Creo 2 or Vado 2 SL were even mentioned by Aushiker, Base?

 

[warek437]

Did you check it before you wrote your post? Why do you think R&M is so popular in Australia? Have you checked why Specialized Creo 2 or Vado 2 SL were even mentioned by Aushiker, Base?

Hi Stefan, you seem to be knowleadble about Specialized bikes. I can understand the concept, lighter bike, smaller battery, less powerful motor, easier to ride and more responsive and enjoyable. Even better when used for day trips in the hills, not touring and not carrying 15 kg of gear.
Am I understanding the weight limit correctly. The vado have a structural load capacity of 136 kg. It claims this is weight of rider and cargo. In that case with the weight of bike around 20 kg therefore all up weight including bike is 155 kg which is suitable for my needs?
Second question is I have heard mixed reports about whether the battery is removable to take it into a hotel room for charging, manual says it is not removable. This seems like a disadvantage
Motor life, I have seen some examples on Ebike Touring forum about motor issues with the Vado and a couple that are now looking to change bikes due to motor reliability issues when heavily laden. Is the motor as reliable as Bosch performance line?
What is the main difference between vado and vado sl when it comes to multiday tours?
Thanks for your insights
Kevin

 

[Aushiker]

Second question is I have heard mixed reports about whether the battery is removable to take it into a hotel room for charging, manual says it is not removable. This seems like a disadvantage [/qoute]

Not Stefan but in my experience, I prefer motels or caravan park cabins or the like or if hotels I request a ground floor unit if possible and I just wheel my R&M to charge it. That said I can remove the batteries as a last resort but have not had to bother so far.

Motor life, I have seen some examples on Ebike Touring forum about motor issues with the Vado and a couple that are now looking to change bikes due to motor reliability issues when heavily laden. Is the motor as reliable as Bosch performance line?

Can you please provide the details of this ebike touring forum you mention?

 

[warek437]

Not Stefan but in my experience, I prefer motels or caravan park cabins or the like or if hotels I request a ground floor unit if possible and I just wheel my R&M to charge it. That said I can remove the batteries as a last resort but have not had to bother so far.

Can you please provide the details of this ebike touring forum you mention?

Hi it is https://www.facebook.com/groups/310233402803584
Ebike touring group.
Any thoughts about Vado 3. I see one on sale new for 3300AUD in my size. It has a 530 WH battery and a 2.0E motor. Retail price of Vado 4 is 5400, and you can buy them for around 5K. Significant saving to buy the 3 and can put the money towards a second battery

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@warek437: I didn't want to interfere in this thread as your country is very special and I preferred an Australian like @Aushiker to talk here. However, I've read your needs and think I can contribute.

First of all, let's skip Specialized SL e-bikes. These are not for you, not for you want to achieve. Too delicate and missing the motor power. You would need several Range Extender batteries to accumulate enough electrical charge. Charging the Range Extenders would take ages! And the main battery is irremovable.

Your bikepacking needs are tough to meet. First of all, almost all e-bikes we are talking about have the Total System Weight (you, e-bike, cargo) limit of 136 kg (which is simply 300 lb). It does not leave many options.

You need a strong/durable e-bike, the best equipped with a Dual Battery, so you do not need to lose the pannier space for carrying a spare battery.

Having said the above, it is hard to beat Riese & Muller e-bikes, especially these with the 160 kg Total System Weight limit and equipped with a Dual Battery. Bear in mind such an e-bike is 32 kg itself, though.

As I can see, the Vado 3 is unavailable as new in Australia. You better don't buy a used e-bike (unless you trust the seller). I would recommend Vado 4.0 that has a 710 Wh battery, is modern, and you will get a very strong 2-year warranty (as well as the lifetime warranty on the frame). An additional 710 Wh battery would give you a pool of electric charge making you safe even under adverse conditions. Example: You go for a long trip with the tailwind; then return and enter a heavy headwind. Would you like to be stuck in the outback with a heavy e-bike and baggage while unpowered?

Would a Vado 4.0 withstand 160 kg? Maybe. 32 spoke wheels found on a Vado 4.0 are strong. The only danger could be the overloaded wheels might get damaged over time. Building new, stronger wheels is expensive.

By the way, could you check how many spokes are in an R&M Dual Battery e-bike? 32 or 36?

 

[Aushiker]

By the way, could you check how many spokes are in an R&M Dual Battery e-bike? 32 or 36?

32 in my SuperCharger.

Another option is maybe the Turbo Tero 4.0 EQ or Turbo Tero 5.00 EQ with the Turbo Full Power 2.0 Motor and 710 Wh Battery. Not sure if you can use an extender battery with this setup.

I am not that familiar with Shimano groupsets, but it has a Cues 9-speed, which does not excite me. My preference would be the SRAM GX Eagle 12 speed

Also picking up on Stefan's comment re the SL models, this leaves you with the Vado 4, which has the same groupset and motor/battery combo as the Turbo Tero 4.00. Possibly no second battery option? Stefan will know. Also, the weight is creeping up.

I note the battery is lockable, so would be removable but not chargeable off the bike? Is that correct Stefan?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Not sure if you can use an extender battery with this setup.

Possibly no second battery option?

Not. It has to be a second battery. I ride an older Vado 6.0 and have to carry a spare battery in the pannier. (Range Extenders are pertinent to the SL system)

I note the battery is lockable, so would be removable but not chargeable off the bike?

Tero or Vado batteries are removable and chargeable on or off the bike.

32 in my SuperCharger.

R&M can be either optimistic or honest with its Total System Weight limit assessment. Perhaps a Vado or Tero (using similar wheels) would withstand the weight.

Turbo Tero 5.00 EQ

If the user needs a 12-speed drivetrain, Tero 5.0 EQ would be the right choice. It is only the matter of the price. (I perceive the 4.0s as the biggest bang for the buck).
Vado and Tero are built on the same frame. However, Tero is certainly sturdier, so in the hindsight it would be a better choice than the Vado. (Please never confuse Tero with Tero X, which is another model with a strange numbering convention).

 

[warek437]

@warek437: I didn't want to interfere in this thread as your country is very special and I preferred an Australian like @Aushiker to talk here. However, I've read your needs and think I can contribute.

First of all, let's skip Specialized SL e-bikes. These are not for you, not for you want to achieve. Too delicate and missing the motor power. You would need several Range Extender batteries to accumulate enough electrical charge. Charging the Range Extenders would take ages! And the main battery is irremovable.

Your bikepacking needs are tough to meet. First of all, almost all e-bikes we are talking about have the Total System Weight (you, e-bike, cargo) limit of 136 kg (which is simply 300 lb). It does not leave many options.

You need a strong/durable e-bike, the best equipped with a Dual Battery, so you do not need to lose the pannier space for carrying a spare battery.

Having said the above, it is hard to beat Riese & Muller e-bikes, especially these with the 160 kg Total System Weight limit and equipped with a Dual Battery. Bear in mind such an e-bike is 32 kg itself, though.

As I can see, the Vado 3 is unavailable as new in Australia. You better don't buy a used e-bike (unless you trust the seller). I would recommend Vado 4.0 that has a 710 Wh battery, is modern, and you will get a very strong 2-year warranty (as well as the lifetime warranty on the frame). An additional 710 Wh battery would give you a pool of electric charge making you safe even under adverse conditions. Example: You go for a long trip with the tailwind; then return and enter a heavy headwind. Would you like to be stuck in the outback with a heavy e-bike and baggage while unpowered?

Would a Vado 4.0 withstand 160 kg? Maybe. 32 spoke wheels found on a Vado 4.0 are strong. The only danger could be the overloaded wheels might get damaged over time. Building new, stronger wheels is expensive.

By the way, could you check how many spokes are in an R&M Dual Battery e-bike? 32 or 36?

Hi Stefan

The Vado 3 turned out to be an error, they had no stock but still listed on their website for sale. I priced a specialized second battery either 710 wh or 530WH and pricing was higher than expected at 1850 AUD including a charger. It now turns out that there are no 2026 Vado 4 in stock either.
There are a number of bikes that are rated 150kg+ RM Charger, Focus Aventura2, some Kalkhoiff and one of the giants. I think the best option is try the GAzelle, buy a second 500wh battery for 1200 AUD, and I have 2 Bosch chargers already. The wheels on the Gazelle are heavy duty deep V rims with 36 spokes and run 28 *1.6-1.75 inch tyres.

Thanks for your input
Kevin

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I think the best option is try the GAzelle, buy a second 500wh battery for 1200 AUD, and I have 2 Bosch chargers already.

May have been mentioned, but some recent Gazelle models offer less expensive range extenders. Sorry, don't recall the details.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm so sorry Kevin! Didn't check the AUS availability!

I think @Aushiker wants to sell his little used R&M Supercharger. We all know and trust Andrew. Sounds like a plan?
As I said, it is hard to beat an R&M e-bike in the bikepacking role, and Riese & Muller is one of very few brands that really do care about the Australian market.

One of the EBR Forum pillars, a former member David Berry of Brisbane rode over 120 km every single day on his R&M Homage, and I think he still does it today

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Also, I looked at the Specialized Australia website:

Turbo Tero 4.0 EQ

The Turbo Tero means one thing: you're going to need a bigger map. With ride anywhere range, this adventure-ready suspension electric bike is our go-any...

www.specialized.com

Three sizes were available. Two sizes available in stores and one online. I realise that a relevant bike store could be a thousand kilometres from your place but perhaps? You see, if Specialized makes a proven model, the brand is not changing it every year, only perhaps changing the frame colour

 

[Mr. Coffee]

One of the things to keep in mind is that your range expectations are likely very sensitive to how much pedal assist you are running with and the terrain and road surfaces you are encountering.

My experience with an older R&M with dual batteries is that around 100km of range is achievable in Tour and about 150km is achievable in Eco. That's on "reasonable" terrain and mostly paved surfaces. On the other hand a 45km ride with 1500m of elevation gain, mostly on rough unpaved surfaces, will completely drain those batteries.

Large amounts of elevation change, especially continuous long climbs of 1000m or more, drain batteries at quite astonishing rates. And you never make up for it on the downhill side.

Unpaved surfaces consume battery faster. Rough unpaved surfaces consume battery even faster. Slippery unpaved surfaces (sand, snow, or mud) really eat your battery.

Higher levels of pedal assist efficiently devour your effective range and are not very useful for long-distance touring.

Also if you want to ride at speeds much higher than 20kph your consumption of electrons will go up rapidly. So if you are going for range (and you probably will be) keep your speeds pretty modest.

The point of all this is that range is a complex, dynamic thing and there isn't one number. Especially on longer rides over varied terrain and different road surfaces.

 

[Aushiker]

My range comments previously reflect my bikepacking experience in Western Australia, which is predominantly on dirt roads (country roads, forestry tracks, sand, and singletrack), with more rolling terrain than mountains. I avoid bitumen where possible.

That said, a normal day of riding can be 80 km+ of continuous up-and-down. I still recall an English rider commenting a few years back that our riding is rolling hills after rolling hills. I wish he hadn't said that, as I had never noticed before (it was my normal) and now I am conscious of it

However, I do try to keep to a lightweight setup with the heaviest single item being water (carrying up to 12 litres/12 kgs) on the R&M, with the maximum being 35 litres/35 kg in my younger days on the Surly Long Haul Trucker riding over seriously rough roads that had not been repaired post a major flood in the area. Fun and games Thankfully, the range limitations of an electric bike mean I have to avoid such a scenario today, with two days between charges being normal.

 

[Aushiker]

There is an R&M Charger on eBay. It is located in Lane Cove, NSW 2066. The seller is asking AU$3,500 for it. Looks good going from the photos. However, and this is a red flag to me ...

"Ridden only 170 kms. .... The battery is well past its half-life, and is reflected in the asking price."

 

[warek437]

There is an R&M Charger on eBay. It is located in Lane Cove, NSW 2066. The seller is asking AU$3,500 for it. Looks good going from the photos. However, and this is a red flag to me ...

"Ridden only 170 kms. .... The battery is well past its half-life, and is reflected in the asking price."

Odd, looks like 5 years old, based on battery size. Allow 2 new batteries at 2400. I prefer chain and cassethe.

 

[PedalUma]

Ebike touring recommendations 120 km a day range with a 150 kg (bike+ rider luggage) and 750-800 wh battery or 2 batteries 750-800 wh batteries.

My first choice is Riese and Muller Charger 5, chain and cassette if it has the range. It is expensive but in my price range. My second choice appears to be Focus Aventura 2. Other bike brands for sale in Australia include Kalkhoff, Orbea, Specialized, Trek, Riese and Muller, Moustache, Cannondale, Cube.
Would a single battery be enough?

Background

I am in Australia and have a 2018-year, Gazelle City Zen bike. Bosch performance line motor with 500 WH power tube battery. It has 10 speed cassette and a 15-tooth single cog on motor. Currently I use it on the rail trails and often tow a 27 kg dog for trips up to 25 kms. It has been great to ride, very stable and comfortable. Now the battery life has a range of less than 70 km when unladen and using the two lower power levels and riding on fairly easy terrain. I am a heavy rider and weigh about 106 kg and am 185 CMS tall. The bike has a travelled 6000 km since new. A second battery is an option but bike is rated to 130 kgs, including bike rider and luggage. It seems very strong and well built and would probably cope with the excess weight but if there are other more suitable bikes then I am happy to upgrade.

I am planning to do some 4-7 day Ebike tours later this year and want to be have a daily range of 120km+ I will stay in motels and pubs and will not need to carry much luggage. Usually, I would not ride 100 km+ per day with luggage, but I am a member of a long-distance cycling club, and due to age and health issues I am unable to ride my normal non Ebike fast enough and long enough to join the group rides. There are some ride options now where the administration is allowing a social ride component as part of the long-distance rides and multi day tours. I would enjoy being involved even though I would not officially finish the ride I would be covered by my member ride insurance

I will take a pair of panniers and expect that with clothes, food, few tools and spares, battery charger, I guess equipment/luggage will weigh 15 kgs plus weight of rider. In theory I am thinking I want a bike that is rated to 150-160 kg that is good to ride. Rides will be on sealed minor roads and smooth gravel rail trails and bike paths. I know the RM bikes have models rated at 160kg and the Focus Aventura 2 is rated at 150kg

Thanks for any long distance Ebike recommendations?

I made one for someone going from Seattle to Maine, 5,800 Km, with her camping gear on mostly gravel. It is better than any bike online or in stores for its purpose. It is based on a Pashley Prospero gravel/touring bike, handmade of Reynolds 631 in Stafford upon Avon, for a fraction of the price of an R&M. Private Message @pem for a review. She will have a mountain stretch of 200 Km without services or charging. She has had Specialized bikes. Hers is exponentially better. Expertly crafted bikes are like going to Milan to have a tailored suit, instead of one off the rack. You will also have the right to repair. 150 variables are end user programmable through the display for personal customization. No one wants a monkey suit off the rack. Look on Google Maps for PedalUma eBikes to see reviews. It sounds like an adventure. All the best. Cheers mate.

 

[warek437]

Thx, I have 30 year old touring bike made with Reynolds 531 st. Perhaps it may be suitable for ebike conversion. I also have Vivient world randomuer steel bike with disc brakes, 5 years old. It would also be a long term option for ebike conversion