best security ideas for ebike

[Chazmo]

The Urtopia has a fingerprint sensor on the head unit for unlocking. When that doesn't work, you must have the paired phone with you in order to override the sensor with the app.

Oh, cool! That sounds equivalent (functionally) to a key lock or some sort of code pad. Of course, that probably means more current draw in “off” mode, which was mentioned earlier as (sort of) an issue.

On my latest MacBook, Apple has thrown in with the fingerprint security idea, which is after many years of doing lots of different things (on a iPhone, anyway).

 

[Chazmo]

that would be a really dumb design to draw a lot of power just waiting for a connection. i have never had this problem with my bike that unlocks via phone. i don't lock it all the time, obviously, but i always have my phone on me and have never returned after a few weeks to find the battery mysteriously drained. there's also the fact that a bike battery is ginormous compared to other devices that sit around listening for connections....

Good points, mschwett, but whatever electronics are talking to your phone are talking some form of wireless and require additional power (than, say, an on / off switch). Of course, you’re right about the relative draw given a (typical) e-bike battery. My bike, turned on with 1050lumen headlamps on only draws 6W. For a 1000Wh battery, it’s noise.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

My bike, turned on with 1050lumen headlamps on only draws 6W. For a 1000Wh battery, it’s noise.

Just to play devils advocate…

How long does the light draws 6W for? 1 hour? 3 hours?

If it’s 6WH then over a 24 hour period that’s 144 wh. Over a weekend, that’s 288 wh. A week, that’s 1008 wh. Your battery will be dead. BMS may kick in earlier due to LVC.

 

[Chazmo]

Just to play devils advocate…

How long does the light draws 6W for? 1 hour? 3 hours?

If it’s 6WH then over a 24 hour period that’s 144 watts. Over a weekend, that’s 288 watts. A week, that’s 1008 watts. Your battery will be dead. BMS may kick in earlier due to LVC.

Yeah, I would get about 6 days for a complete drain of a full battery (less with BMS kicking in). But 6W would be a lot more (I would think!!) than what I would actually expect the draw to be for the kind of communication device we were talking about, slap. Probably a bad example on my part. Still worth considering!

 

[mschwett]

Just to play devils advocate…

How long does the light draws 6W for? 1 hour? 3 hours?

If it’s 6WH then over a 24 hour period that’s 144 watts. Over a weekend, that’s 288 watts. A week, that’s 1008 watts. Your battery will be dead. BMS may kick in earlier due to LVC.

we aren't talking about leaving lights on though, it's just an illustration of how much power a battery really has. a visible light is way way more power than an idle BLE SOC.

The BLE device is in sleep mode for most of the time and only wakes up when a connection is initiated. The actual connection happens only for a few seconds. The maximum or peak consumption is only 15 mA, and the average power consumption is just 1 uA.

tiny, tiny, tiny amounts of power. 15 MILLIONTHS of an amp at peak, 1 millionth average, probably around 3V. 3V x 1 millionth of an amp is 3 millionths of a watt, do that for 6 months and you're nowhere near even one watt hour. the published info on BLE connections and chipsets could be off by a factor of a hundred and it's still peanuts.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I think you can look at this problem from the other end of it. Most people don't ride around with their battery charger all day, and chances are when the bike is stolen the thief doesn't get the battery charger along with it.

So why don't we have a pairing process that pairs chargers and batteries? You'd hypothetically have to go to a dealer to do that but most people have only one battery and one charger. Life would get a little more complicated if you had multiple chargers, multiple batteries, and multiple bikes. But it seems like a solvable problem.

It wouldn't prevent a theft but anyone who got the bike and wanted to use it would have to go to a dealer to get a new charger and get it paired, and presumably the victim would have reported the bike stolen by then.

This system wouldn't work at all with DTC e-bikes.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I think you can look at this problem from the other end of it. Most people don't ride around with their battery charger all day, and chances are when the bike is stolen the thief doesn't get the battery charger along with it.

So why don't we have a pairing process that pairs chargers and batteries? You'd hypothetically have to go to a dealer to do that but most people have only one battery and one charger. Life would get a little more complicated if you had multiple chargers, multiple batteries, and multiple bikes. But it seems like a solvable problem.

It wouldn't prevent a theft but anyone who got the bike and wanted to use it would have to go to a dealer to get a new charger and get it paired, and presumably the victim would have reported the bike stolen by then.

This system wouldn't work at all with DTC e-bikes.

Yes that would be one way to drive up cost with no reasonable value added.

 

[patrick01]

A number of companies make an AirTag holder that fits under a standard water bottle cage. However, don't these only work for Apple devices? There are Android/web trackers available, I'm aware of that as well.

I still think that even though any physical lock can be defeated, it's the best security when you cannot watch your bike at all times. I just built a Cannondale cargo bike that comes with a fork mounted Abus lock, keyed alike with the battery locks (dual battery). The shackle goes through the front wheel. It's only a deterrent, but the bike is a beast. It would slow a thief down, and it's convenient enough to be used regularly.

I believe they only work with Apple devices, so the compartment would need to be able to fit other types of trackers too not to be limited to just Apple

 

[Biplaneguy]

How long does the light draws 6W for? 1 hour? 3 hours?

If it’s 6WH then over a 24 hour period that’s 144 watts. Over a weekend, that’s 288 watts. A week, that’s 1008 watts. Your battery will be dead. BMS may kick in earlier due to LVC.

Probably typos but people should understand the difference between Watts (W), which is the rate of energy consumption, and Watt-hours (Wh), which is the total amount of energy used or stored. A device drawing 6W for one hour uses 6Wh of stored energy. 6W for a week is 1008Wh.

Though a 1050 lumen LED would normally draw around 11W.

tiny, tiny, tiny amounts of power. 15 MILLIONTHS of an amp at peak, 1 millionth average, probably around 3V. 3V x 1 millionth of an amp is 3 millionths of a watt, do that for 6 months and you're nowhere near even one watt hour. the published info on BLE connections and chipsets could be off by a factor of a hundred and it's still peanuts

15mA or 15 milliamps is 15 thousandths of an amp, not millionths. 1 uA (microamp) is a millionth of an amp. But yes, very small. But any device system that has parasitic draw should have a switch to shut it completely off for storage.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

The guy I gave my dual motor Apollo Ghost to did the Ludo mod to it. Faster and scarier! Is that an early Apollo? Never seen blue before.

Yes. 2019 Apollo Pro.

 

[Chazmo]

Though a 1050 lumen LED would normally draw around 11W.

The gauge on my display might not be accurate, biplaneguy, but it stays at 6W draw with my 1050 lumen headlamp on and (obviously) the bike electronics on. AFAIK, the Juiced headlamp is/was a proprietary device, and I’ve never compared the draw with other lamps.

And, for the record, I was only using this as an estimate for possible worst-case scenario for power draw if some sort of comms device were used on the bike to implement WiFi or whatever to control access to the bike while it was turned off… Also, as @mschwett pointed out, using 6W as a worst-case is ridiculously pessimistic.

 

[Chazmo]

The gauge on my display might not be accurate, biplaneguy, but it stays at 6W draw with my 1050 lumen headlamp on and (obviously) the bike electronics on. AFAIK, the Juiced headlamp is/was a proprietary device, and I’ve never compared the draw with other lamps.

And, for the record, I was only using this as an estimate for possible worst-case scenario for power draw if some sort of comms device were used on the bike to implement WiFi or whatever to control access to the bike while it was turned off… Also, as @mschwett pointed out, using 6W as a worst-case is ridiculously pessimistic.

Apple AirTags work best when they connect with UWB (ultra wide-band). Bluetooth is also used. An AirTag can stay active for a couple of years on one of those hearing aid batteries, so, again, my bad on a ridiculous worst-case scenario.

 

[PedalUma]

I have observed that a seat post is the diameter of a shotgun shell.