Moving Away From Heavy E-Bikes

[Saratoga Dave]

You and that Road-E have been a hell of a team, everyone knows that. I wonder how you’d bond with a Creo!

But that motor on the Giant is an awfully strong entry, great balance of power and weight for the bike. I’m sorry to see that Giant is apparently abandoning the Revolt in the USA, at least… I have long thought about that as an eventual successor to my Toughroad if it ever gives up.

 

[PDoz]

I prefer a lighter bike because it feels more playful out on the trail. But there is so much more to that experience than what the scales say - responsive handling, low unsprung weight , even decent quality wheels and suspension. I've INCREASED the weight of my levo sl from stock by upgrading the suspension - about 300 gms , which I'll compensate for by fitting a lighter cassette if / when the stock nx lump wears out.

For me, the holy grail is a less intrusive Experience, so there are other things to consider before I spend any $ on another toy.

I'm not a fan of the sudden hit my old giant does in the higher power settings, or the over run of a bosch. I want to know there is support from the motor, but not notice it. The mahle motor in my specialized SL doesn't quite tick the unobtrusive box - I need to focus on keeping cadence up because it simply doesn't have enough low cadence torque for my legs to get lazy. The trek exe motor comes closer to what I'd like - a bit more low cadence torque, and unobtrusive in how it provides support.

Shall we discuss noise? I've had 3 mahle motors through my levo sl , the original screamed, the second one was quiet enough but died prematurely. The latest one I can live with but know it's there. It was lovely to hop aboard a trek exe and not hear the motor!

But none of these factors alone are going to have me swap bike shops. The local specialized dealer has earned by respect, I despise the trek dealer .

There is so much more to owning these bikes than just a number on a spreadsheet

 

[PedalUma]

I have done San Francisco hills and high winds on analog bikes. It is just not as much fun. Weight is only one factor. Abet, an important one. I want bikes with racks and panniers with fenders and a comfortable riding position, because I ride 365 days per year and it needs to be practical transportation. I went grocery shopping today by bike. I also want a low cost of ownership so sturdy wins over lightweight. I also want to own the bike. That means that I am the boss who controls its programing, not someone remotely on a whim that I have no power over. The bike I took shopping is getting new gears today. They last one year and cost $23.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Do you remember my 162 mile ride last year? I got 83 miles from my first battery and I was carrying another 2 so I could easily do an imperial century on a lightweight e bike, winds would be a factor of course but anything below 20mph I could manage it no problem!

50 miles is as far as I've gone on my vado SL but that is my fitness level & without a range extender. That included around 4500ft of climbing. Most spins are 20 to 30 miles and around 3000ft of (very steep) hills. I now have an extender and once the damn weather gets better am to get the fitness back up to those levels & further. The lightweight e bikes are fine for that as long as you don't expect miracles and have motor off on flat & tailwind. With extender I'm aiming for at least 70 miles and if I can plot a non hilly route, then 100 might be doable. Worth aiming for.

And also Rab can I just say you're a huge inspiration. Good on you for all those epic rides, in all weathers and in.... Scotland! Giant should bloody well sponsor you. And I remember when you got your motor reconditioned you were still putting in the big miles on your ordinary bike! Amazing. Last summer after a good winter of e bike rides on the vado Sl I did a few 20 and 30 mile rides on my drop bar steel framed bike and it was lovely. But the fitness has to be at that level because the hills are so vicious its really not fun if not fit enough. Whereas I can hop on the e bike any day. That's the main benefit I think.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You should try googling it.

Like, "what is the country with the highest rate of e-bikes stolen from the front of the pub"?

Oh yes. The country where the half of the community rides traditional road bikes and the other half illegal Chinese cr*p. With a minority of true e-cyclists.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I prefer a lighter bike because it feels more playful out on the trail. But there is so much more to that experience than what the scales say - responsive handling, low unsprung weight , even decent quality wheels and suspension. I've INCREASED the weight of my levo sl from stock by upgrading the suspension - about 300 gms , which I'll compensate for by fitting a lighter cassette if / when the stock nx lump wears out.

For me, the holy grail is a less intrusive Experience, so there are other things to consider before I spend any $ on another toy.

I'm not a fan of the sudden hit my old giant does in the higher power settings, or the over run of a bosch. I want to know there is support from the motor, but not notice it. The mahle motor in my specialized SL doesn't quite tick the unobtrusive box - I need to focus on keeping cadence up because it simply doesn't have enough low cadence torque for my legs to get lazy. The trek exe motor comes closer to what I'd like - a bit more low cadence torque, and unobtrusive in how it provides support.

Shall we discuss noise? I've had 3 mahle motors through my levo sl , the original screamed, the second one was quiet enough but died prematurely. The latest one I can live with but know it's there. It was lovely to hop aboard a trek exe and not hear the motor!

But none of these factors alone are going to have me swap bike shops. The local specialized dealer has earned by respect, I despise the trek dealer .

There is so much more to owning these bikes than just a number on a spreadsheet

How did the motors die Pdoz? I ask because I'm on my second motor on my Vado SL. The first was still working but had got louder and bike shop replaced under warrenty. I've got a tiny clicking noise on this new motor or at least from drive train area so this weekend going to give a good clean and tighten everything to see if that sorts it. How did your second, quiet motor die?

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Like, "what is the country with the highest rate of e-bikes stolen from the front of the pub"?

View attachment 149988

Oh yes. The country where the half of the community rides traditional road bikes and the other half illegal Chinese cr*p. With a minority of true e-cyclists.

Eh? Where did you get that statistic from? If I see e bikes around here they are mostly Cubes, Focus or other German ones. Or full sus EMTBs up on the moors. Not many Chinese or kit bikes around here at all. Those are mostly in cities with the Uber eat riders. Was in London for the last couple of days and plenty there doing deliveries. But they make perfect sense for deliveries and for students without much cash don't they? I may own a Vado SL but bike prices in general are just stupid right now. I do not understand how they've crept up so much in last 10 years. All bikes I mean not just e bikes. So the lure of a sturdy & well built 90s mtb with a reliable Bafang motor and all for well under £1000 - makes sense if you're on a gig economy/minimum wage job delivering all day in a wintery London.

Though in terms of most Chinese bikes I've seen - that would have to be Belgrade a year ago. They were by far the most popular choice there, zipping around everywhere.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Was in London for the last couple of days and plenty there doing deliveries.

My observations are from there. Also many devastated bikes still chained to the posts or fence railing. I could see very few decent e-bikes there and trust me, I use to come to London frequently. The biggest number of better e-bikes I could see there was Battersea but there is a successful Van Moof LBS there. What I, however, could appreciate was the big number of people cycling. Trust me, almost all trad bicycles there I could see were road bikes.

In the front of the Van Moof LBS, Battersea, London, 2022.

I need to mention I met a gentleman riding a Riese & Muller e-bike nearby, and we had a nice chat together.

Statistics:

Are Electric Bikes More Likely to Get Stolen? [STATISTICS]

Discover the statistics regarding e-bike theft and find out whether electric bikes are more likely to be stolen that normal bicycles.

discerningcyclist.com

Trevor told me to Google the answer so I did.
Wherever he lives, it must be a wretched country where it is not possible to leave a locked e-bike outside a pub without the imminent danger to have it stolen.

Though in terms of most Chinese bikes I've seen - that would have to be Belgrade a year ago.

I believe you. Serbia has never re-joined the civilized world after the last Bosnian war. I was there once, one year after that war. People were generally demoralized there, the country was poor, and it was technologically 10 or more years backwards compared to the rest of Europe. A local Third World. (I apologize for being direct and honest).

 

[PSm]

I’ve always admired the design and technology of the Specialized bikes, but have been discouraged by the stories of motor and other failures. Maybe too complex and finicky?

My relatively inexpensive SS ebike has a Shengyi motor, and has gone 7000 miles without a problem. And only real maintenance $50 to replace the carbon belt at 5000 miles. I guess simplicity sometimes pays off

 

[Rich W.]

I’m a rookie with ebikes, didn’t ride anything much in the last 40 years (commonly rode 50 miles/day on my old ’72 Peugeot 10 speed in my youth), but I’ve put about 500 miles on my new Tero 5.0 and while its ridiculously heavy for a bicycle (60lbs), I don’t see much in the way of alternatives for my type of riding.

I’d like to try a light weight gravel e-bike and have fantasies about a lightweight road bike, but a gravel bike wouldn’t survive my type of riding (mix of paved roads, rough dirt/gravel, single track, and desert riding too rough for that design), and I think a nice road bike would just collect dust between occasional long rides in distant areas more favorable to that type of riding. The thought is appealing though.

I’m hoping technology improves over the next five years or so and weight comes down, but in the mean time I’ve invested over $6k in my bike ($4500 for the bike and $1500+ in mods/upgrades) and it will have to earn its keep before I buy another expensive toy. But the thing is a beast and while lifting it on and off a rack is part of my weight training routine, I often wonder about the wisdom of both Specialized for creating the thing, and myself for buying it.

One nice thing about a heavy bike though is that having given up on weight-watching, I can freely load it up with whatever I want to bring along because weight saving is a lost cause. The big limit is range. Realistically its a 35 mile bike with NO range extender option - another improvement they could make. I’ll probably end up buying a second battery, but the cost of those makes the idea rather unpalatable.

PS - thanks for another insightful and thought provoking post Stefan - it‘s helped me sort out how I feel about my current bike and my biking future, and also weeded out another member to add to my ignore list. Cheers!

 

[PedalUma]

Shengyi motor

Is your motor something like this one? Simplicity does pay off. I have a Specialized gravel bike with an air fork. I removed the hydro and installed mechanical brakes with premium housings and cables. I went from 11 speeds down to nine while keeping almost the same range, for a thicker chain and installed the torque sensing motor and premium battery. Batteries are interchangeable and external while coming in various sizes depending on the ride that day. It is all thru-frame and I control the programming. An internal controller can be swapped the same day and costs $65. The entire motor can be serviced the same day. It does not data log, does not require updates, and looks totally clean. A replacement display is also $65.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

My observations are from there. Also many devastated bikes still chained to the posts or fence railing. I could see very few decent e-bikes there and trust me, I use to come to London frequently. The biggest number of better e-bikes I could see there was Battersea but there is a successful Van Moof LBS there. What I, however, could appreciate was the big number of people cycling. Trust me, almost all trad bicycles there I could see were road bikes.

View attachment 149989
In the front of the Van Moof LBS, Battersea, London, 2022.

Statistics:

Are Electric Bikes More Likely to Get Stolen? [STATISTICS]

Discover the statistics regarding e-bike theft and find out whether electric bikes are more likely to be stolen that normal bicycles.

discerningcyclist.com

Trevor told me to Google the answer so I did.
Wherever he lives, it must be a wretched country where it is not possible to leave a locked e-bike outside a pub without the imminent danger to have it stolen.


I believe you. Serbia has never re-joined the civilized world after the last Bosnian war. I was there once, one year after that war. People were generally demoralized there, the country was poor, and it was technologically 10 or more years backwards compared to the rest of Europe. A local Third World. (I apologize for being direct and honest).

I work in London a lot and used live there. Its a massive city and I bet a lot of recreational riders keep their expensive e bikes in doors and use on weekends etc. In terms of ordinary bikes there are bikes of every description. But the bikes you see locked up are well used commuters and frequently kept grimy to avoid getting nicked. When I lived there I used to wind old inner tubes around the frame to disguise the fairly expensive shiny looking frame underneath. Getting bikes robbed is a perennial problem always has been. But no different from Dublin or Limerick where I used to live. And Jesus, LA is the worst I've ever seen for bikes being nicked! Nowadays the professional gangs in UK are robbing hundreds of e bikes and road bikes/full sus MTBs and filling containers to ship to Eastern Europe. This is a serious problem run apparently by Russian mafiosa type gangs. Big money to be made. A full ebike showroom in Exeter got cleaned out a few months ago. Broke in at night, disabled the alarms and calmly loaded up 2 trucks full of all the ebikes and were gone. And yet the policing is way behind the curve; they don't seem to realise the thousands of pounds these bikes are worth today so not much is done. In terms of bikes locked up to railings - the age old problem is that Westminster Council and some other central london councils are Tory run and they seem to pathologically hate cyclists so are slow to give planning permission for decent bike racks and the right wing press has people up in arms about bike paths, covered bike racks etc etc meaning London is patchy for bike infrastructure despite the huge upswing of use in recent years. It's a shame because its a great way to get around the city and lovely to see so many people out of their cars and cycling every day. I think it's slowly getting better. It's why cycling in Amsterdam one time there, I found absolutely incredible!

Re Serbia spent 7 weeks there working in 2021. Loved the place. The people are great. Though I hated the militarism and toxic post balkans war Nationalism of the Govt etc. Thankfully I'd left before Russia invaded Ukraine, though most of the people I met and got to know would have hated that and wanted to be part of EU.

Also - not a fan of van moof, smells to me of crypto bros/silicon valley type start up! With all their propriety parts and 'cool' marketing. Instinctively puts me off. Might be great bikes though they look heavy, maybe it's just me getting old and cynical.

 

[Avg_Joe]

Very timely topic, @Stefan Mikes ! Every time I ride my Vado, I find myself thinking - should my next ebike be a "lightweight" with more of a natural feel? or a +90nm torque monster with bigger battery? (I'm riding a Vado 3.0, so 50nm torque and 530wh battery)

I did recently pick up a used analog. I've ridden it a handful of times and just find it... difficult? Almost as if I'm pedaling through wet concrete. What I'm trying to figure out is whether I've been too generous with power assist (although I primarily ride in Eco 5/25 - +97% of each ride); or is my fitness not really improving much? I was checking my stats and since I got the Vado, my average human power has increased by over 40% since my 1st rides after purchase. However, pedaling an analog right now is rough.

Ultimately I was hoping to do some very short tours, maybe like 4-6 days. A full-powered ebike is not ideal for that due to batteries. And so far, my analog experience is a resounding h**l no. A lightweight with range extenders almost seems ideal, and might work well for my daily recreational rides?

Obviously I have nothing much to add, but find this discussion very interesting (in spite of the knucklehead whose only mission is to personally attack you, rather than add to the discussion). Hoping someone posts something that forces that "Aha!" moment for me....

 

[Chibbie]

As a complete newbie to e-bikes, I don’t have too much to add other than my thought processes in embarking on this journey:

I bought a Vintage Electric Cafe in late December 2022. Love it; no real complaints. However: I recently decided that I also needed (ok, wanted) a lighter weight and step-thru alternative bike in addition to the Cafe. So, I bought a LeMond Dutch. I only have a couple of days left on the 14-day return period, but I’m now 90% sure I’ll be keeping it. My reasoning was in part that I wanted an upright step-thru alternative for those days when my various mild middle-age aches and pains would make riding the Cafe, with its more forward riding position and the need for a long swing of the leg over the top bar, more than I wanted to do. (I haven’t yet had a day when I *couldn’t* ride the Cafe; but I have had several days when I *didn’t* do so because I didn’t have the time or mental energy to deal with aches from sciatica on one side and pre-arthritis in one hip on the other side). The other motivation was the much lighter weight of the Dutch. While the Cafe is relatively light, especially for a bike with a pretty powerful motor (53 lbs *with* the battery installed), and I can lift it if need be, getting it up and down the stairs of my house is sometimes enough of a pain in the butt that it’s a deterrent. On those days, I can sling the Dutch up and down the stairs with no problem. On days when I’m tired, achy, only have a few minutes to ride, etc., and I think: “Is it really worth it for me to have to haul this thing up and down the stairs?,” - especially the *up* the stairs part after a long, intense, and/or sweaty ride - the answer with the Cafe is sometimes yes, sometimes no. With the Dutch, the answer is never in question, because it truly takes me no real effort to lift it.

All that said: the main compromise is that the motor on the LeMond Dutch, unsurprisingly, is nowhere near as powerful as the motor on the Cafe. But on days when I want/need to ride the Dutch, I feel that trade off is more than worth it. And I’m fortunate enough to be able to afford to have both bikes.

But if I could only afford to have one, or only had space for one, I’m actually not sure which I’d keep: the heavier but much more powerful one, or the lighter but much less powerful one. The Cafe, once out the door and on the road, is far more versatile in the sense that its more powerful motor means I can ride it anywhere no matter how much (or how little) pedaling effort I feel like putting in on a given day. But the Dutch is more versatile in the sense that I can ride it every day simply because its extremely light weight makes it so much manageable for daily life. (And that’s not even counting the difference in the ease of transporting it on a bike rack or whatever: I haven’t had to do that yet. While I’m capable of lifting the Cafe onto a bike rack, I’m sure it’ll be a pain when I do.). Honestly, while the lighter bike has a great deal of appeal, if I truly only could keep one, it would probably be the Cafe. Its weight is manageable, particularly with the battery removed; and I could move my car out of the garage and park the Cafe there so that I wouldn’t have to carry up and down the stairs. (And I’d just deal with the moderate aches and pains: it’s nothing debilitating, just annoying.) If I didn’t have this option, though (or if the aches and pains were debilitating) and had to decide between power vs weight, it would be a very hard call.

 

[Rich W.]

Is your motor something like this one? Simplicity does pay off. I have a Specialized gravel bike with an air fork. I removed the hydro and installed mechanical brakes with premium housings and cables. I went from 11 speeds down to nine while keeping almost the same range, for a thicker chain and installed the torque sensing motor and premium battery. Batteries are interchangeable and external while coming in various sizes depending on the ride that day. It is all thru-frame and I control the programming. An internal controller can be swapped the same day and costs $65. The entire motor can be serviced the same day. It does not data log, does not require updates, and looks totally clean. A replacement display is also $65.
View attachment 149997

Got pics of the bike of an example?

 

[PSm]

Is your motor something like this one? Simplicity does pay off. I have a Specialized gravel bike with an air fork. I removed the hydro and installed mechanical brakes with premium housings and cables. I went from 11 speeds down to nine while keeping almost the same range, for a thicker chain and installed the torque sensing motor and premium battery. Batteries are interchangeable and external while coming in various sizes depending on the ride that day. It is all thru-frame and I control the programming. An internal controller can be swapped the same day and costs $65. The entire motor can be serviced the same day. It does not data log, does not require updates, and looks totally clean. A replacement display is also $65.
View attachment 149997

Nope, mine is a simple rear hub 350w (500w peak) motor. If I ever need to replace it, a built up rear wheel with new motor from Ride1UP is only $375 I think. Gets the job done, and as mentioned 7000 troublefree miles so far.

 

[PSm]

Very timely topic, @Stefan Mikes ! Every time I ride my Vado, I find myself thinking - should my next ebike be a "lightweight" with more of a natural feel? or a +90nm torque monster with bigger battery? (I'm riding a Vado 3.0, so 50nm torque and 530wh battery)

I did recently pick up a used analog. I've ridden it a handful of times and just find it... difficult? Almost as if I'm pedaling through wet concrete. What I'm trying to figure out is whether I've been too generous with power assist (although I primarily ride in Eco 5/25 - +97% of each ride); or is my fitness not really improving much? I was checking my stats and since I got the Vado, my average human power has increased by over 40% since my 1st rides after purchase. However, pedaling an analog right now is rough.

Ultimately I was hoping to do some very short tours, maybe like 4-6 days. A full-powered ebike is not ideal for that due to batteries. And so far, my analog experience is a resounding h**l no. A lightweight with range extenders almost seems ideal, and might work well for my daily recreational rides?

Obviously I have nothing much to add, but find this discussion very interesting (in spite of the knucklehead whose only mission is to personally attack you, rather than add to the discussion). Hoping someone posts something that forces that "Aha!" moment for me....

Haha, yeah riding an analog does feel a bit like riding in concrete. But you’d be surprised how much difference a really light analog (or electric) bike + very low rolling resistance tires make. For me, night and day difference. I tried switching to Continental Gatorskin tires for the flat protection, and h@ly cr@p, it felt SO much slower than my usual Continental Grand Prix 5000 (GP5k) tires. Like riding with weights attached to my legs.

Never using anything else but the GP5k’s, ever again. And switching to TPU tubes (RideNow) on all my bikes, for the additional weight reduction and lower rotating mass. With those changes, IMO makes most any bike feel like there is a new turbo mode

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Many posts while I was asleep, several of them requires a longer answer
To @Rich W.

thanks for another insightful and thought provoking post Stefan

Yes, provoking a little bit (If there was any offender in this thread, I am fortunately unaware of it as I weeded out any trolls long time ago)

Between you and me: there is no greater joy to mount my Vado after a week of riding the Vado SL! Kilometres fade away quickly, the scenery is changing so fast, a headwind is of no issue! Only I feel the heavy mass of the e-bike under me, and the pedalling is so easy I often consider decreasing the assistance (using my own version of MicroTune). Vado is not Tero and it really feels shaky in more rough terrain, compared to Vado SL.

The heavy weight of Vado is especially depressing on my railway commutes to the group rides. In some railway stations here, you can find a lift so small you need to put the e-bike upright to fit in. Or, the lift is good for a wheelchair but would not fit any bike. Or, there is no lift or ramp only staircase. (Recently, @Marquezdl has described his problems with a Vado and an elevator under another thread).

I’d like to try a light weight gravel e-bike and have fantasies about a lightweight road bike, but a gravel bike wouldn’t survive my type of riding (mix of paved roads, rough dirt/gravel, single track, and desert riding too rough for that design), and I think a nice road bike would just collect dust between occasional long rides in distant areas more favorable to that type of riding. The thought is appealing though.

I just want to mention Mr. @e-levity who deeply customized a Vado SL of Ms. e-levity to the level (the e-bike named Gravel Queen) they could make an exciting trip around the Death Valley CA.
Gravel Queen
Vado SL in Death Valley

I’m hoping technology improves over the next five years or so and weight comes down, but in the mean time I’ve invested over $6k in my bike ($4500 for the bike and $1500+ in mods/upgrades) and it will have to earn its keep before I buy another expensive toy.

I think you should use your Tero to the max and enjoy it as much as you can. Buying a Vado SL was my aware decision: I needed an e-bike I could keep in my apartment and easily carry it upstairs.

One nice thing about a heavy bike though is that having given up on weight-watching, I can freely load it up with whatever I want to bring along because weight saving is a lost cause.

Only please be careful with overloading your Tero. It's total weight limit is only 300 lbs! I was riding my Vado very close to that limit (rider + cargo + e-bike), and I have to build a new expensive rear wheel after 3+ years of riding the heavy e-bike.

The big limit is range. Realistically its a 35 mile bike with NO range extender option - another improvement they could make. I’ll probably end up buying a second battery, but the cost of those makes the idea rather unpalatable.

Hey, only 35 miles with the 710 Wh battery? Don't you use excessive assistance maybe?

Now I think of people who buy a dual battery e-bikes (such as Riese & Muller Superdelite) and the e-bike weight starts at 31.5 kg (roughly 70 pounds)...

 

[Stefan Mikes]

To @Rás Cnoic:

I work in London a lot and used live there. Its a massive city and I bet a lot of recreational riders keep their expensive e bikes in doors and use on weekends etc. In terms of ordinary bikes there are bikes of every description. But the bikes you see locked up are well used commuters and frequently kept grimy to avoid getting nicked. When I lived there I used to wind old inner tubes around the frame to disguise the fairly expensive shiny looking frame underneath. Getting bikes robbed is a perennial problem always has been. But no different from Dublin or Limerick where I used to live. And Jesus, LA is the worst I've ever seen for bikes being nicked! Nowadays the professional gangs in UK are robbing hundreds of e bikes and road bikes/full sus MTBs and filling containers to ship to Eastern Europe. This is a serious problem run apparently by Russian mafiosa type gangs. Big money to be made. A full ebike showroom in Exeter got cleaned out a few months ago. Broke in at night, disabled the alarms and calmly loaded up 2 trucks full of all the ebikes and were gone. And yet the policing is way behind the curve; they don't seem to realise the thousands of pounds these bikes are worth today so not much is done. In terms of bikes locked up to railings - the age old problem is that Westminster Council and some other central london councils are Tory run and they seem to pathologically hate cyclists so are slow to give planning permission for decent bike racks and the right wing press has people up in arms about bike paths, covered bike racks etc etc meaning London is patchy for bike infrastructure despite the huge upswing of use in recent years. It's a shame because its a great way to get around the city and lovely to see so many people out of their cars and cycling every day. I think it's slowly getting better. It's why cycling in Amsterdam one time there, I found absolutely incredible!

Thank you very much for your insightful post! It helped me see the things from your local perspective. A big scale robbery of e-bikes from a huge LBS by a gang happened in Poland once, so that phenomenon is not just limited to the UK.

Re Serbia spent 7 weeks there working in 2021. Loved the place. The people are great. Though I hated the militarism and toxic post balkans war Nationalism of the Govt etc. Thankfully I'd left before Russia invaded Ukraine, though most of the people I met and got to know would have hated that and wanted to be part of EU.

You've got the point. I enjoyed the people of my professional level but disliked many other things there. Nowadays, Serbia has never joined the sanctions against Russia. The fact you could see so many Chinese e-bikes in Belgrade tells me a lot about the shape of economy and of foreign trade there.

Also - not a fan of van moof, smells to me of crypto bros/silicon valley type start up! With all their propriety parts and 'cool' marketing. Instinctively puts me off. Might be great bikes though they look heavy, maybe it's just me getting old and cynical.

The same feelings here. The owner of Van Moof was shedding crocodile tears about the "bad EU" who practically prevented him from selling illegal e-bikes there (van moofs were confiscated by German police, for instance), Still, Battersea is an expensive area and the buyers can be found there.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

To @Avg_Joe:

Very timely topic, @Stefan Mikes ! Every time I ride my Vado, I find myself thinking - should my next ebike be a "lightweight" with more of a natural feel? or a +90nm torque monster with bigger battery? (I'm riding a Vado 3.0, so 50nm torque and 530wh battery)

I did recently pick up a used analog. I've ridden it a handful of times and just find it... difficult? Almost as if I'm pedaling through wet concrete. What I'm trying to figure out is whether I've been too generous with power assist (although I primarily ride in Eco 5/25 - +97% of each ride); or is my fitness not really improving much? I was checking my stats and since I got the Vado, my average human power has increased by over 40% since my 1st rides after purchase. However, pedaling an analog right now is rough.

Honestly, I cannot ride any unpowered bike or e-bike now because of my medical condition. Only recently, I've changed the routine of my daily Vado SL rides. First of all, I do not defeat the EU speed limiter anymore. If assistance is necessary, I happily pedal under 25 km/h. If there is a tailwind, I pedal harder and try to ride without the assistance over 25 km/h. It gives me a good workout and the leg power readouts from my Wahoo are encouraging.

Ultimately I was hoping to do some very short tours, maybe like 4-6 days. A full-powered ebike is not ideal for that due to batteries. And so far, my analog experience is a resounding h**l no. A lightweight with range extenders almost seems ideal, and might work well for my daily recreational rides?

The idea of Range Extenders for multiple day tour is not perfect. The Vado SL/Range Extender combo recharges in 3 h 20 min. You can only recharge the next RE individually, and that takes another 3 h 20 min. I plan a 250 km gravel "race" for June (split into two days) and I can already see how impractical travelling with four Range Extenders and a single charger would be!

Obviously I have nothing much to add, but find this discussion very interesting (in spite of the knucklehead whose only mission is to personally attack you, rather than add to the discussion). Hoping someone posts something that forces that "Aha!" moment for me....

How good I am not aware who you are talking about, and am even not interested to see what he wrote! (Was he naming me "Richard" maybe?)