Why are SurRons so cheap?

[reed scott]

Looks like Segway is rebranding SurRons and raising the price.

Segway Dirt eBike X260

Segway Dirt eBike X260

store.segway.com

View attachment 52396

Now I know why Luna Cycle has gone nearly underground. Their forum is very slow and everything is on backorder. They're making all their money on Sur Rons and have let most everything else go. Why bother with all the hassle of multiple models, warranty complaints, lots of employees etc when you can just trim back and actually see a better profit.

Change my mind.

 

[reed scott]

"There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey.

It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money – that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot – it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better." John Ruskin

The sweetness of low price is forgotten once the bitterness of low quality sets in.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

CANYON on the other hand, for the high-end components they offer, their prices are lower than Giant and Specialized for sure.

I understand the prices and components and you have not convinced me, Ravi... Canyon is cheaper from Allant+ 9.9s for sure. But Canyon is Class 1.

Who needs carbon? To shave off 1.25 kg? Note: Older Vado had a rigid aluminium fork. I know. I ride one.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Who needs carbon? To shave off 1.25 kg?

I am not sure if you have ridden a carbon frame E-bike or regular bike for 250 miles or more ?!
It is not just about the weight, it is about the ride quality as well. Carbon bikes feel more compliant and agile. But, the issue is not all carbon frames are equally made. You can see super cheap carbon frames from companies like Dengfu who supply frames to LunaCycles etc. A good carbon fiber frame will cost more than a Titanium frame and it is very labor intensive. I have seen too many carbon frames break and very few companies have the technology right!

There are two different categories of riders. There are those who have just gotten into biking after 30+ years non-biking and they are 60+ in age and have disposable income or savings to play with.
These kind of folks would want full suspension + kinekt seatpost + cushy saddle to isolate themselves from the road feedback and that is enjoyable for them.

Then, we have another category of riders who ride frequently on their regular bike, have put in thousands of miles already, have the stamina and but want to cut back the commute time using an E-bike.
They prefer more aerodynamic posture, aggressive geometry and road feedback. These kind of riders have the experience to differentiate between geometries and frame material (Ti - Al - Ca).
CANYON is catering to these kind of riders.

Coming back to the thread:

Consolidating supply chain is what gave companies like Canyon advantage over companies that build everything in Asia.

 

[FlatSix911]

Spot on! I think a lot of experienced cyclists appreciate the difference in the ride quality of different materials... Ti, Al, Cromoly, Carbon.

 

[Alaskan]

There are two different categories of riders. There are those who have just gotten into biking after 30+ years non-biking and they are 60+ in age and have disposable income or savings to play with.
These kind of folks would want full suspension + kinekt seatpost + cushy saddle to isolate themselves from the road feedback and that is enjoyable for them.

Then, we have another category of riders who ride frequently on their regular bike, have put in thousands of miles already, have the stamina and but want to cut back the commute time using an E-bike.

Good points Ravi. I started riding an ebike squarely in your first category and gravitated to Riese & Muller full suspension ebikes. Then I really got into it and started riding 20+ miles daily average ride, not commuting but just loving the endorphins and the joy of riding. I actually got my fitness back at nearly age 70 to where I was in my thirties. I started riding two or three days a week with a congenial (and quite tolerant) group of aging roadies (I was am in the middle age wise) who graciously allowed me to ride with them. This got me more focussed on performance rather than just comfort.

My favorite bike to ride now is a Trek Allant +9.9s with a beautifully crafted, carbon fiber frame and fork, no suspension and a much more nimble and active geometry than the cushy Riese & Muller style. Granted by adding a body float, Selle Anatomica H2 and baramind handlebar, I did achieve a more compliant ride on the Allant than stock would have given. I am really amazed with how comfortable the ride is on this bike. And I love the snappy performance of the gen 4 Bosch speed motor with the 85 Nm software update. Running it through the 1x12 10-51 tooth cassette, with the Sram ASX wireless derailleur and the Onyx instant engagement hub makes this bike like riding versus the Riese & Muller Delite like the difference between a Porsche and a Mercedes SUV.

I used to think that I had to have a air sprung front fork on every bike. Not any more.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@Ravi Kempaiah:
I was looking for anything special or aggressively priced of Canyon in the category of e-bikes I'm interested in and could find nothing convincing if we compare apples to apples... Add to it Canyon has nothing in Class 3.

	Canyon Pathlite:ON 8.0 EUR	Specialized Turbo Vado 5.0 EUR
Price EUR	4200 (discounted 3899)	4200
Frame	Aluminium	Aluminium
Weight [kg]	24	24
Motor	Bosch Performance Line CX	Specialized 1.3 (Brose S Alu)
Battery	500 Wh	604 Wh
Suspension fork	SR Suntour XCR34 Air	SR Suntour NCX E25
Derailleur	Shimano Deore XT M8000 SGS	Shimano Deore XT M8000 SGS
Shifter	Shimano SLX 11 speed	Shimano SLX 11 speed
Cassette	Shimano SLX M7000 11-42 11s	Shimano SLX M7000 11-42 11s
Chainring	42t	48t
Brakes	Shimano MT500 rotor size unknown	Shimano Deore XT 180/160 mm

If you, however, compare Canyon Pathlite:ON 9.0 to Specialized Turbo Vado 6.0, I can only tell you the Vado is cheaper, lighter, better equipped and faster (45 km/h vs 25 km/h) than the Canyon. Perhaps what you overlooked in your reasoning was the fact Specialized (built by Merida) has their own supply chain? Are you telling me Giant (the largest bike manufacturer in the world) is missing their own supply chain?

 

[PDoz]

Stefan, Specialized are 49% owned by merida but not entirely built by them.

But I suspect you are correct that most of the big brands are assembled in the same region of thailand where all the components are built.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan, Specialized are 49% owned by merida but not entirely built by them.

But I suspect you are correct that most of the big brands are assembled in the same region of thailand where all the components are built.

That's Taiwan (I know it for sure). Nothing wrong with Taiwan: It's the home of bicycles.
Of course I don't know where the S-Works bikes are made.

 

[PDoz]

That's Taiwan (I know it for sure). Nothing wrong with Taiwan: It's the home of bicycles.
Of course I don't know where the S-Works bikes are made.

Sorry, I'm feeling extremely racist / ignorant for mixing that up

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I found some 2004 post claiming there was no Specialized factory in Taiwan but the bikes were built by Merida or by Giant. Again, nothing wrong with that. It is rather surprising to me the small island of Taiwan can be a world-wide leader in bike manufacturing...

 

[Cyklefanatic]

@Ravi Kempaiah:
I was looking for anything special or aggressively priced of Canyon in the category of e-bikes I'm interested in and could find nothing convincing if we compare apples to apples... Add to it Canyon has nothing in Class 3.

	Canyon Pathlite:ON 8.0 EUR	Specialized Turbo Vado 5.0 EUR
Price EUR	4700 (discounted 4270)	4200
Frame	Aluminium	Aluminium
Weight [kg]	27	24
Motor	Bosch Performance Line CX	Specialized 1.3 (Brose S Alu)
Battery	500 Wh	604 Wh
Suspension fork	SR Suntour XCR34 Air	SR Suntour NCX E25
Derailleur	Shimano Deore XT M8000 SGS	Shimano Deore XT M8000 SGS
Shifter	Shimano SLX 11 speed	Shimano SLX 11 speed
Cassette	Shimano SLX M7000 11-42 11s	Shimano SLX M7000 11-42 11s
Chainring	42t	48t
Brakes	Shimano MT500 rotor size unknown	Shimano Deore XT 180/160 mm

If you, however, compare Canyon Pathlite:ON 9.0 to Specialized Turbo Vado 6.0, I can only tell you the Vado is cheaper, lighter, better equipped and faster (45 km/h vs 25 km/h) than the Canyon. Perhaps what you overlooked in your reasoning was the fact Specialized (built by Merida) has their own supply chain? Are you telling me Giant (the largest bike manufacturer in the world) is missing their own supply chain?

Your comparison actually illustrates why bikes are so expensive. Even the largest bike companies don’t do much more than design a frame, buy components and do final assembly. All the major components have additional costs because of the profits of the supply chain. Imagine if Toyota had to buy engines, transmissions, suspension, brakes, seats, steering and controls off the shelf from other companies. Cars would be more expensive and their would be less difference between brands. Toyota would have less control of quality and design.
There are way too many bike brands right now with cost of entry to the business being very low. If three or four well funded bike manufacturers entered the picture they could take control of the market by focussing on engineering all components in house, total design of the bike, volume and cost control. Selection would be less but prices could drop 25% while improving quality. Competition between brands would fuel improvements. It would be risky for the first company to attempt this because of the high investment. A bike oriented Elon Musk with vision and deep pockets is needed.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

@Ravi Kempaiah:
I was looking for anything special or aggressively priced of Canyon in the category of e-bikes I'm interested in and could find nothing convincing if we compare apples to apples... Add to it Canyon has nothing in Class 3.

	Canyon Pathlite:ON 8.0 EUR	Specialized Turbo Vado 5.0 EUR
Price EUR	4700 (discounted 4270)	4200
Frame	Aluminium	Aluminium
Weight [kg]	27	24
Motor	Bosch Performance Line CX	Specialized 1.3 (Brose S Alu)
Battery	500 Wh	604 Wh
Suspension fork	SR Suntour XCR34 Air	SR Suntour NCX E25
Derailleur	Shimano Deore XT M8000 SGS	Shimano Deore XT M8000 SGS
Shifter	Shimano SLX 11 speed	Shimano SLX 11 speed
Cassette	Shimano SLX M7000 11-42 11s	Shimano SLX M7000 11-42 11s
Chainring	42t	48t
Brakes	Shimano MT500 rotor size unknown	Shimano Deore XT 180/160 mm

If you, however, compare Canyon Pathlite:ON 9.0 to Specialized Turbo Vado 6.0, I can only tell you the Vado is cheaper, lighter, better equipped and faster (45 km/h vs 25 km/h) than the Canyon. Perhaps what you overlooked in your reasoning was the fact Specialized (built by Merida) has their own supply chain? Are you telling me Giant (the largest bike manufacturer in the world) is missing their own supply chain?

Many manufacturers like CUBE, Moustache, CANYON have reduced the number of S-pedelecs in their line-up purely because of the limitations of bureaucracy and the law.
I am not sure where you found a Pathlite 8.0 for 4700 EUR. It is much cheaper than that (EUR 3719). See below.
If you look at Canyon Pathlite 7.0, it has very decent specs and probably comparable to Vado 5.0 but at EUR 2999.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Your comparison actually illustrates why bikes are so expensive. Even the largest bike companies don’t do much more than design a frame, buy components and do final assembly. All the major components have additional costs because of the profits of the supply chain. Imagine if Toyota had to buy engines, transmissions, suspension, brakes, seats, steering and controls off the shelf from other companies. Cars would be more expensive and their would be less difference between brands. Toyota would have less control of quality and design.
There are way too many bike brands right now with cost of entry to the business being very low. If three or four well funded bike manufacturers entered the picture they could take control of the market by focussing on engineering all components in house, total design of the bike, volume and cost control. Selection would be less but prices could drop 25% while improving quality. Competition between brands would fuel improvements. It would be risky for the first company to attempt this because of the high investment. A bike oriented Elon Musk with vision and deep pockets is needed.

You're absolutely right!

Right now, every Auto maker, whether it is GM or AUDI have been struggling to get enough batteries and they are dependent on other parties like LG or Samsung to provide cells.

Tesla was able to foresee the problem (Thanks, JB Straubel) and integrated vertically. They built the largest Li-ion factor in the world (Gigafactory) and now getting into mining of Nickel and Manganese to ensure their prices remain low. This level of integration has given them a HUGE lead.

They are still working on their weak links i.e., build quality and they are still procuring certain parts from 3rd parties and they don't have long experience building cars.

But, whether it is Apple manufacturing phones in China or Tesla building cars in the US, having all the required talent and supply chain makes a massive difference.

 

[john peck]

Good points... I think that most brand name EBikes are overpriced and will be more affordable as volume and competition increases.

That said, the Sur-Ron is a beautiful design and a fantastic value... just take my money when they offer a street legal version.

View attachment 52055

View attachment 52056

That´s one fierce looking bike, gives me shivvers. Wouldn´t long to put me in hospital, but damn, that´s sexy.

 

[tlippy]

Surron X Bike (Black Edition)

We are the USA distributor of this fast and fun dirt ebike.... buy it from the source! We have the newest bikes at the best price.

lunacycle.com

Or maybe the real question is why are ebikes so expensive? Luna cycle is selling SurRon electric motorbikes for $3,400. That includes a massive battery, powerful motor, long travel front and rear suspension, 4 piston disc brakes, wide knobby tires, a solid frame and much more. Ebikes pale in comparison at that price point with many ebikes costing thousands more.
I think that the reason SurRons are so cheap is because most bike manufacturers only design the frame and buy everything else from all the same usual suspects. There is very little engineering going on and everything goes through several rounds of mark ups before it reaches the consumer.
What we need is an ebike manufacturer willing to design almost the whole bike, motor, frame, brakes, electronics and suspension. It works for motorcycles so why not bikes?
Honda didn’t develop its brand by designing only the frame and buying everything else. Honda took pride in its engineering, it’s motors, it’s transmissions, it’s suspension and good value for money. We are all paying a high price for the current boutique nature of the ebike industry.
it will take deep pockets, good engineering and persistence but the first company to take that approach will crush the competition.
As soon as a SurRon comes along and rethinks the business model for ebikes everyone else will disappear and we consumers will get better cheaper bikes.

I think R1U and Aventon's designs are unique and built to their own specs in China. They get to the consumer fairly priced.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Many manufacturers like CUBE, Moustache, CANYON have reduced the number of S-pedelecs in their line-up purely because of the limitations of bureaucracy and the law.
I am not sure where you found a Pathlite 8.0 for 4700 EUR. It is much cheaper than that (EUR 3719). See below.
If you look at Canyon Pathlite 7.0, it has very decent specs and probably comparable to Vado 5.0 but at EUR 2999.

My mistake. Here's the exact price:

The price I quoted was for the 1000 Wh battery as that version is offered for Poland. That affected the price and weight, so my comparison was not quite correct. I'm sorry, (Editing the table).