Who owns your Bosch motor?

[DanInStPete]

I posted this in the general forum, but want to put a link here in chase anyone is interested. Or if Bosch is interested in responding.

If you buy a bike with a Bosch motor, who owns the motor?

I recently had to replace my Bosch Performance Line CX at 1,400 miles. Supposedly, I got it too wet. Fine, it's out of warranty. It was around $875 for the motor, $1244 installed, including tax. I went to pick up the bike, took it for a quick test ride, and then went to pay. As I was paying I...

electricbikereview.com

 

[fooferdoggie]

talked to my mechanic yep motors have to be sent back.

 

[DanInStPete]

Yeah, I’m still of the opinion that the motor was my property. It’s moot now, I bought an Orbea Rise and am selling the Haibike with 12 miles on the new motor.

 

[tresorier21000]

Le moteur ne peut vous appartenir, même si vous l'avez payé avec le vélo.
Il a toujours été annoncé que l'échange était un échange standard.
Le moteur est paramétré par Bosch en fonction de la demande du constructeur du vélo pour répondre à un programme d'activités donné (VTT, vélo de ville, cargo,...).
Comme il y a une réglementation pour le VAE (européenne pour mon cas), si chacun pouvait changer son moteur à sa guise, plus aucune réglementation ne serait respectée.
Par exemple, mettre un moteur Cargo sur un VTTAE, mettre un moteur 45km/h sur un VTTAE qui était conçu pour 25km/h.
Sans compter que chacun pourrait équiper son vélo d'un moteur qui n'est pas en rapport avec les freins et autres systèmes de sécurité.
Donc, quand Bosch renvoie un moteur neuf, c'est un moteur qui est programmé à l'identique de l'ancien moteur et correspondant au programme initial du vélo.
A part récupérer quelques pièces plus ou moins en bon état, vous ne pourrez rien faire sur la carte mère qui n'est modifiable que par Bosch.
Ce système permet aussi d'avoir certaines "garanties" en cas d'achat d'un vélo d'occasion.
Cette pratique n'est pas réservée à Bosch !

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The motor cannot be yours, even if you paid for it with the bike.
It was always advertised that the exchange was a standard exchange.
The motor is configured by Bosch according to the request of the bicycle manufacturer to respond to a given program of activities (mountain bike, city bike, cargo bike, etc.).
As there are regulations for the VAE (European for my case), if everyone could change their motor as they wish, no more regulations would be respected.
For example, putting a Cargo motor on an FS-MTB, putting a 45km/h engine on an FS-MTB which was designed for 25km/h.
Not to mention that everyone could equip their bike with an motor that is not related to the brakes and other security systems.
So when Bosch returns a new motor, it is a motor that is programmed identically to the old motor and corresponds to the initial program of the bicycle.
Apart from recovering a few parts in more or less good condition, you won't be able to do anything on the motherboard, which can only be modified by Bosch.
This system also makes it possible to have certain "guarantees" in the event of the purchase of a second-hand bicycle.
This practice is not reserved for Bosch!

It is clear how we do it in the European Union. You need to be aware @tresorier21000 the American people think differently. It is probably the only country where a Class 1 e-MTB (20 mph) could be reprogrammed to Class 3 (28 mph) by a big and respected brand who would have never done it in the EU.

Bosch E-Bike is acting far more conservatively than, say, Specialized. Bosch motors are hardcoded with the regulations. For example, a Bosch motor programmed for 25 km/h is only delivered to Europe, and Speed motors for 45 km/h are always built as Euro L1e-B mopeds even if they are exported to the United States. If you imported a 25 km/h Bosch e-bike to North America then nobody including Bosch E-Bike could change the speed restriction to 20 mph or 32 km/h. A Class 1 Bosch motor can only be installed on e-bikes to be exported to the United States or Canada (20 mph or 32 km/h).

Specialized policy is different. In the EU, their only 45 km/h e-bike (Vado 6.0) is equipped with a special motor (1.2s) and is Type Approved as L1e-B, a moped. However, a regular Vado 5.0 with the 2.2 motor:

• Is programmed to 25 km/h for the European Union or UK or Australia
• Is restricted to 32 km/h for Canada
• Is offered as Class 3 (28 mph or 45 km/h) for the United States or New Zealand (NZ has no speed limit, only the motor power limit).

It is Specialized responsibility to program e-bikes made in Taiwan properly for any region. Dealers in the region are not allowed to hamper with the speed restriction (unless the brand allows it for a region). The benefit is, the same motor (such as 2.2) can be used globally.

I even do not want to touch the subject of the "Right To Repair", greatly advocated in the United States.

 

[tresorier21000]

La manière dont nous procédons dans l'Union européenne est claire. Vous devez être conscient @tresorier21000 que les Américains pensent différemment. C'est probablement le seul pays où un e-MTB de classe 1 (20 mph) pourrait être reprogrammé en classe 3 (28 mph) par une grande marque respectée qui ne l'aurait jamais fait dans l'UE.

Bosch E-Bike agit de manière beaucoup plus conservatrice que, disons, Specialized. Les moteurs Bosch sont codés en dur avec la réglementation. Par exemple, un moteur Bosch programmé pour 25 km/h n'est livré qu'en Europe, et les moteurs Speed pour 45 km/h sont toujours construits comme des cyclomoteurs Euro L1e-B même s'ils sont exportés aux États-Unis. Si vous avez importé un vélo électrique Bosch à 25 km/h en Amérique du Nord, personne, y compris Bosch E-Bike, ne pourrait modifier la limitation de vitesse à 20 mph ou 32 km/h. Un moteur Bosch de classe 1 ne peut être installé que sur des vélos électriques destinés à être exportés aux États-Unis ou au Canada (20 mph ou 32 km/h).

La politique spécialisée est différente. Dans l'UE, leur seul vélo électrique à 45 km/h (Vado 6.0) est équipé d'un moteur spécial (1,2 s) et est homologué en tant que L1e-B, un cyclomoteur. Cependant, un Vado 5.0 ordinaire avec le moteur 2.2 :

• Est programmé à 25 km/h pour l'Union européenne ou le Royaume-Uni ou l'Australie
• Est limité à 32 km/h pour le Canada
• Est proposé en classe 3 (28 mph ou 45 km/h) pour les États-Unis ou la Nouvelle-Zélande (la Nouvelle-Zélande n'a pas de limite de vitesse, seulement la limite de puissance du moteur).

Il est de la responsabilité de Specialized de programmer correctement les vélos électriques fabriqués à Taiwan pour n'importe quelle région. Les concessionnaires de la région ne sont pas autorisés à entraver la limitation de vitesse (sauf si la marque l'autorise pour une région). L'avantage est que le même moteur (tel que 2.2) peut être utilisé dans le monde entier.

Je ne veux même pas aborder le sujet du "Right To Repair", très prôné aux Etats-Unis.

Effectivement, j'aurai dû dire en préambule que je raisonnais en tant qu'européen !
Il est vrai qu'aux Etats Unis, c'est une autre philosophie.

 

[Explorer-1]

I posted this in the general forum, but want to put a link here in chase anyone is interested. Or if Bosch is interested in responding.

If you buy a bike with a Bosch motor, who owns the motor?

I recently had to replace my Bosch Performance Line CX at 1,400 miles. Supposedly, I got it too wet. Fine, it's out of warranty. It was around $875 for the motor, $1244 installed, including tax. I went to pick up the bike, took it for a quick test ride, and then went to pay. As I was paying I...

electricbikereview.com

The answer is too depressing to think about.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Agree with the above. I’ll never get a proprietary ebike system for all the reasons associated with that. If I buy something, I want to own it and alter it as I like. I’ll be responsible for the product after purchase, thank you. Proprietary systems (not only e-bikes) just lock the user out in so many ways. I think it’s really sad.

 

[rich c]

Agree with the above. I’ll never get a proprietary ebike system for all the reasons associated with that. If I buy something, I want to own it and alter it as I like. I’ll be responsible for the product after purchase, thank you. Proprietary systems (not only e-bikes) just lock the user out in so many ways. I think it’s really sad.

What would you modify on a Bafang motor if you wanted to? I'm 8,400 miles in on my Bosch/Haibike Trekking. Never been updated, never been back to the shop. I still don't see an issue of a locked system except for those with the stick it to the man attitude.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

The idea of, if your controller goes out, do you have to get a whole new motor? Open the motor and replace the controller? That’s not very user friendly. I’m not trying to stick anything to any man, I just want the ability to work on my stuff my self. I don’t want to set up an appointment, go to a dealer, get warranty work, order the part, schedule another appointment to install the part. Hopefully, Bosch is still making that motor.

I just fixed my heater. I’m really glad it wasn’t a proprietary system.

 

[fooferdoggie]

The idea of, if your controller goes out, do you have to get a whole new motor? Open the motor and replace the controller? That’s not very user friendly. I’m not trying to stick anything to any man, I just want the ability to work on my stuff my self. I don’t want to set up an appointment, go to a dealer, get warranty work, order the part, schedule another appointment to install the part. Hopefully, Bosch is still making that motor.

the controller is built into the motor. makes it seamless. everything is contained in the motor. all the bike info is in there. bosch supports all of their products still. they still make batteries that fit their oldest systems. no one else does that.

 

[Asher]

the controller is built into the motor. makes it seamless. everything is contained in the motor. all the bike info is in there. bosch supports all of their products still. they still make batteries that fit their oldest systems. no one else does that.

The cost of supporting a few old batteries is a pittance compared to the profit margins they have from their proprietary batteries.

Plus, when you have non-proprietary batteries using a common standard, there will be support for a LONG time from the market generally, because there's still a sizable market that third party parts makers will cater to. The comparison is not Bosch to other proprietary makes, but Bosch to common open standards.

Bosch is also a company that has flagrantly violated the law by telling customers their warranty is voided if they do third party repairs.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://publicinterestnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Warranties-in-the-Void-U.S.-PIRG-Education-Fund-Oct2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwils9v2rdH9AhWylGoFHU_4CV8QFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3cEyjzghGFylCvDq--VZ-o