Who is , or will be , the Dell of ebikes ?

[rich c]

The Sondors are easy to repair. The parts are trivial.

Easy for you maybe, but when you have a bargain basement priced bike with no customer support and poor manuals, and you have people that have never touched a wrench assembling them, it's far from easy. There were people that had reversed the forks at assembly, pedals falling off, battery cradles that have loose terminals that melt down, improperly adjusted brakes, tight and dry front axles, cranks that are loose and noisy, magnets loose in the motors, etc.... All incidents reported multiple times on the Facebook page. Not easy to repair for those people! Then those same owners read how easy it is to modify by folks making statements like you do, and buy LCDs and controllers that won't communicate, using wrong chains when they try to update the gearing, etc... You can't paint with a broad brush like that.

 

[Mark Galloway]

why does that matter?

Joe take a look at gmbt net work on youtube dirtshed show 124 and see the first ebike it the bike vault. Near the end of the show

 

[JohnT]

I'm one of many Pedego dealers, so I'm biased, but Pedego is arguably the biggest electric bike company in the US, and we're still growing, although I don't know whether our market share is growing. We don't target every market segment, but we have a wide selection of models and sizes to choose from. Our customer service is extraordinary, and Pedego HQ keeps a lot of parts in stock, including parts for discontinued models, so you can count on our support for many years to come.

There are a lot of articles written on Pedego as a company and on our business model. See a full page photo of my wife and me on page 15 of the March 2017 issue of Inc magazine, although we're not otherwise mentioned in the article.

 

[Over50]

I wish someone would look at Detroit with all those abandoned factories and warehouses, and say, lets open those up again, but instead of cars we'll build ebikes! Detroit could be the new capitol for ebike production. I'm so sick of waiting for a much needed part to get here fron China.

I'm in Detroit. There are companies here making or assembling bikes (ie Shinola, Detroit Bike Co...) but ebikes are not well accepted yet. As an ebike commuter I'm way out on the fringes of the bike world here (as near as I can tell). This probably has to do with the fact that our bike infrastructure, at least for commuting in nascent and just not built out enough to allow for much ebike commuting.

 

[Over50]

This is why biking, and especially ebikes, are reserved for enthusiasts in the US and Canada. As long as reviews focus on expensive bikes and people state that you need an expensive mid motor drive and batteries are expensive and hard to replace they will remain an odity without the critical mass needed to bring about standardization. It's like hearing car nuts talk about how great Porches are and how only fools would drive a Kia or Corolla. Obviously they made be better cars, although reliability ratings seem to favor the Kia and Toyota, but if anyone thinks that ebikes are going to become seen as a viable transportation alternative when only expensive Euro bikes without throttles are pushed as being the solution I wouldn't hold my breath. They will remain exotic hobbies, like multi thousand dollar espresso coffee makers.

Not sure if you are referring to this forum. I see a lot of price ranges represented in the reviews published by Court. I don't see all the forum discussion limited to high end bikes. I certainly don't see that only expensive Euro bikes with throttles are being pushed as a solution here. I have a mid price range Euro bike with no throttle. I don't see that any discussions of similarly priced bikes are stating that owners of lower priced bikes are fools. I'm very content to drive a Subaru and a Ford and I'd never spend the money for a status car (Mercedes etc). But I would and did spend money on a good ebike. I'm commuting through some rough areas and over bad terrain so I want a solid, proven, reliable bike. I don't see the discussion here limited to higher end bikes. I think the bike infrastructure and ebike dealer networks has a lot more to do with the rate of ebike adoption moreso than the price range options or price range marketing. It seems to me that there are already a good number of ebikes available across the price spectrum. But at least in my area the dealer networks are not built out and the bike infrastructure is weak.

 

[Solom01]

Hi Over50. No, I'm not referring to this forum. This is an enthusiast site and I think Court does a great job of reviewing some moderately priced bike and some higher end ones. Personally I enjoy reading about new bikes with new technology. My frustration is at seeing how slow any real adaptation of bikes as a real transportation method is and how little is spent on bike infrastructure. It's probably a non-solvable issue, but I keep thinking that unless a critical number of people start looking at bikes that way nothing is going to change, and until people think of bikes as a method of transportation instead of toys they won't be willing to pay much for them. The bike industry as a whole is not growing and when you see NY on the warpath against electric bikes, Portland taxing bikes and DC bike use going down it's hard to be too optimistic. I keep comparing it to the car culture, before the Ford Model T came out there were a lot of really nice car companies that sold really great expensive cars, but it took a cheap, low tech car to get enough people buying it to change people's minds and make creating the needed infrastructure a priority. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt that 3k and up bikes without throttles and complicated drive systems will ever be taken seriously by the vast majority of people.

 

[rich c]

The bike industry as a whole is not growing

Really? Any figures to back that up? http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...opportunity-analysis-july-2016-300381702.html
In our metropolitan regional community, we have 5 local bike shops, all have ebikes for sale. In Peoria, any new street construction now includes a marked bike lane. Our downtown has added miles of marked bike lanes. We have a bike co-op bringing help to the under privileged as well as the enthusiast. We have touring and mtb clubs. We have 4 major mtb areas, and we are a blue collar midwestern community. A fair amount of all this is new in the last decade. Then in Europe I read where they have bike parking issues. Thousands of bikes parked by train stations. Maybe not the golden age, but it sure is bright around here!

 

[Solom01]

Did you read the link you posted? Almost all of the sales growth is in the EU and Asia - which is hardly surprising since bikes are seen as transportation there. It's next to impossible to tell exactly how many ebikes were sold in the US/Canada, but the highest numbers noted are about 250k (sold to dealers - not to customers) - which considering the total bike market in the US is in the 10s of millions is hardly a huge number. I've never been to Peoria, maybe it is the garden spot for bicycling in the US. I hope you're right, if so in the next couple of years we should see ebikes everywhere.

 

[George S.]

My frustration is at seeing how slow any real adaptation of bikes as a real transportation method is and how little is spent on bike infrastructure. It's probably a non-solvable issue, but I keep thinking that unless a critical number of people start looking at bikes that way nothing is going to change, and until people think of bikes as a method of transportation

There seems to be a rollback of bike infrastructure. I know people who bought ebikes and decided it was just too dangerous, riding on the streets. It's not a friendly political climate. Ebikes have a lot of potential, but no one has found a catalyst. I'd go with low cost just to get people on board, but I'm not investing in the industry. I like flying, but there were never any business opportunities, and it was just too expensive as a hobby. The old saying was 'to make a million dollars in aviation, start with 3 million."

 

[Denis Shelston]

Well this ain't Peoria. I'm in the Toronto area, 7+ million people, including some burbs.

Most major metropolitan area in North America put up a fight with cyclists, that is a fact. Cars VS bicycles. Let's ban bicycles here, and here... No! to more safe cycle paths, well maybe, we'll see next year... Toronto is not bike friendly.

This summer, more than any other it seems, everyday there's a story in the news on another cyclist killed in the city in an accident. Nothing to bring in new riders.

From everything I've read and still read, in North America, the bicycle market is either stagnant, shrinking a bit or growing ever so slowly.

No one is more passionate with the automobile than we are are. No one, period.

Most if not all the people I know will never spend more than $400 to $500 on any bike, let alone thousands. Not sure there is enough potential profits to excite anyone to revolutionize the industry.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Dewey]

Any figures to back that up?

The US Census Bureau has reported an increase in the number of bicycle commuters from 488,000 in 2000 to 786,000 in 2008–2012, however this number remains only about 1% of US daily travel and cycling growth has been concentrated in a few regions and metropolitan areas, described in Table 2 of this analysis of the American Community Survey data for 2008-2012. Public health practitioners in 2011 reported male cyclists outnumber women 4:1 and the number of children cycling has been falling since the mid 1970's. To increase the number of cyclists they recommend necessary infrastructure improvements, such as sidewalks, crosswalks, bike paths and lanes, and intersection crossings; improved traffic education; strict enforcement of traffic regulations; reductions in motor vehicle speed limits; traffic calming of residential neighborhoods; and land use policies that foster compact, mixed-use developments.

 

[rich c]

Did you read the link you posted? Almost all of the sales growth is in the EU and Asia - which is hardly surprising since bikes are seen as transportation there. It's next to impossible to tell exactly how many ebikes were sold in the US/Canada, but the highest numbers noted are about 250k (sold to dealers - not to customers) - which considering the total bike market in the US is in the 10s of millions is hardly a huge number. I've never been to Peoria, maybe it is the garden spot for bicycling in the US. I hope you're right, if so in the next couple of years we should see ebikes everywhere.

You were the one that said the bike industry as a whole. I really dislike when someone with a bad experience in their city, paints with a brush to cover the entire United States. Get active, start a bike co-op, organize. All methods that are better than sitting at the computer bemoaning the fall of bicycles in your area. My cousin has a wonderful blog in Monterey California. She has businesses promoting bicycles, adding parking, offering discounts if you arrive on a bicycle, increasing safety and awareness, etc.. http://marilynch.com/blog/

 

[emco5]

...To increase the number of cyclists they recommend necessary infrastructure improvements, such as sidewalks, crosswalks, bike paths and lanes.....

So, we expand bikeways and MUPS. Imagine what those would be like if the plan succeeds and people actually do get out of their cars and ride bicycles. Not a pretty picture, and it would sure take away the fun. ;- ) Seriously, it's a conundrum. https://tinyurl.com/ycvz9l2z

 

[Dewey]

So, we expand bikeways and MUPS.

A recent analysis noted cyclist injury patterns and severity were similar on roads and bike paths alike. Another analysis of cyclist injury data mentioned problems at intersections include turning vehicles, the presence of bus stops, and length of crossing whereas a median helps. A new report from the Governors Highway Safety Association touched on ebike safety on page 47 mentioning a 2016 German study which reported ebike riders are twice as likely as pedal cyclists to come into conflict with motorists at intersections. The GHSA report points to a need to change the built environment in US cities to be more accommodating for higher speed ebike cyclists, pedal cyclists, and pedestrians alike. Suggested accident prevention measures include protected bike lanes, redesigning intersections along busy bicycle commuting roads with marked bicycle box waiting areas at intersections and separate bicycle signals timed in advance of traffic to give cyclists a fighting chance to get ahead of turning vehicles, redesigning corners to add more sidewalk width and adding medians to shorten intersection crosswalks. I would add widening MUPs so as to be able to separate the bicycle and pedestrian paths, also require/monitor haulage companies to add side protection bars to prevent cyclists being pulled under truck wheels. Future gazing we might anticipate more sophisticated automated collision avoidance systems in cars and trucks perhaps built into autonomous vehicle software, although this article mentions the difficulties software has in identifying cyclists in real-world conditions driving on the street. To enable MUP/bike path access for distance ebike commuters who might prefer the faster Class 3 speed pedelecs but need to slow down when using bicycle infrastructure closer in maybe something phone/gps based using trail geofencing using Google maps, gps tracker chips in bike frames, and bluetooth controllers could be implemented by ebike manufacturers to automatically limit speed of ebikes on MUPs - this type of relatively simple application would support the case for ebike trail access.

 

[Robert W Green]

Someone needs to get Elon Musk excited about E-bikes...

People have to get on a waiting list to get a Tesla. I wouldn't want to wait two years for a car or a bike.

 

[Captain Slow]

Is this even possible in the US at the moment? Unlike Asia and Europe where bikes are actually seen as a legitimate means of transportation most of what I've seen in the States is that biking is seen more as a recreational activity with only a tiny number (relatively speaking) of users. This isn't just limited to ebikes, when I ride a bike in my small town for every 5 persons who actually seem to be using their bikes to go to the market or work or whatever there seem to be 15 bikers riding high-end road bikes with the spandex getup which I just can't see being apoted by non-entusiasts. Even in places like Washington DC and Portland that are seen as super-bike friendly the number of bikers you see are a very small number compared to car users. So long as gas costs are so low here and the use of cars so high what little infrastructure there is for bikes seems to be, at best, an afterthought. Hopefully I'm totally wrong but seeing how the bikes that are talked about the most are high priced, very top of the line bikes it seems that the bike makers are looking to become the next Ferrari and not too concerned about building the next Toyota Corolla.

If you saw me riding to work, you might think I'm one of those enthusiasts. I'm wearing spandex and I'm riding a Cervelo. But I am commuting to work both ways. I ride the Cervelo because I have an 18 km ride each way and I want to save that little bit of extra time. Now that my kids are older those extra minutes aren't a big deal but in the past when I was rushing to daycare they were pretty important.

 

[George S.]

Sondors has actually managed to make his car. It looks interesting, on the Sondors car Facebook page. Supposed to show the prototype in California. I'm not sure how he manages a car and a big ebike company, but he's pretty adept at making stuff.

 

[rich c]

Preston Tucker made 51 cars. We all know how that worked out. Better be careful calling it a car. It's a "motorcycle" you know. Sondors is adept at getting things made, pretty sure he's never made anything. Think he'll have a longer warranty on the car than they do on the bikes? Where would someone go for repairs and warranty service? I highly doubt it will be successful as a DIY repair! People could get killed probing around that kind of battery energy.

 

[AlexS]

If Eric From Luna Cycle is not the Michael Dell of ebikes then I guess Sondors is second best. Really it would hard to name 3rd place.

 

[George S.]

Court had a brief interview with Sondors at the beach Demo Day. It was kind of clear that Sondors was clueless about the parts on a bike. And then all Hell broke loose and the project seemed to implode. But Sondors went to China, where he had made toys, and he made the bike he promised people. There are a lot of nuances to that story, but there was a large contingent of people who said his reports from China were totally fake. It was a surreal time. But he found a good motor and he found decent cells, and he made a bike that a lot of people like. The lesson to me was if you go to China and do the work there, you can get cheap cells and make a decent battery for way less than what retailers were charging. I think Luna picked up on this, and Luna may now have some in house battery production equipment. A lot of things happened because of Sondors. I think other bikes followed Sondors, so maybe Sondors cleared a path for Rad Power, using the CF model. You can argue Sondors didn't come up with CF, that he was barely on the Web. You can argue Sondors didn't know bikes. But, gee, here we are. He must know how to do something?

Now, can he make a car? Your points are valid. Electra Meccanica has a similar car, and they are in production. Where do they go for service? These are critical questions because support is a big deal. In theory, these are simple mechanical devices. I think Elio, with a gas car, had some sort of deal with Pep Boys. I'm not sure that inspires confidence.

I think Sondors feeds on the negativity. These are not well rounded companies with deep management teams. It's all Sondors, all the time. Sondors has a history of not getting along with people. It's the exact problem Luna has. The risk of flame-out is substantial. Dell was a biz skool kind of company. You only need an egomaniac for so long. Where's the real management team, for the ebikes and the cars?